Calgary announces agreement for new $1.2 billion arena for the Flames

[Mike Jones]

And what’s gondek’s polling numbers rn? Genuinely curious.

Roughly 40% approval. It's going to go even lower when taxpayers learn that the city is covering cost overruns.

 

[super6646]

Roughly 40% approval. It's going to go even lower when taxpayers learn that the city is covering cost overruns.

I’m surprised tbh. Thought it would have been closer to 25 lol.

 

[Mike Jones]

Born and raised in cowtown....and yes...sadly.....I do pay taxes.

Then I'm surprised you approve this deal. Especially now that we're also covering cost overruns. We'd better hope we don't need the fire or police departments anytime soon. And say goodbye to the outreach teams helping and caring for the tent city residents we've all been complaining about. And kiss the roads goodbye.

I suppose none of that matters as long as the billionaires who own the Flames get richer.

 

[biturbo19]

Downtown Calgary and the areas around where this will be are already full of tweaked out hobos.

For one thing, if they're perpetually in the same place, they're not really Hobos. They're just unhoused people.

Secondly...this is where the whole issue with public funding comes in. It doesn't leave enough public money to actually solve the problem and provide that "revitalizing effect" promised. You're just going to have the same people congregating around the shiny new building as a backdrop instead.

It was going to be an issue even after the area was built up, you can’t build a new arena next to the cities largest homeless population and expect them to just leave.

It wasn’t caused by the ice district but it was poor planning, not sure if Calgary’s downtown core is similar


Homelessness and drugs yes, the overstating your development no.

I think quite a good portion knew that plan was far too ambitious

Calgary's downtown East end is more or less the same problem as Ice District. It's something that isn't really adequately being addressed as part of this rejuvenation proposal. I think they're trying to do what Vancouver has, but without the earnest efforts to curb some of the deleterious, destructive stuff that drives other people away.

Part of the problem is that it's not far from where the only real temporary homeless shelter is located. It's also an area that features a lot of open public spaces, paths along the river, etc. It's also just more sheltered from the elements than other areas. Places that...when they have nowhere else to go, and those areas aren't always heavy in foot traffic...tends to encourage little encampments and congregation of homeless populations, which tends to also bring drug use, etc. along with it. It just happens to be very publicly visible drug use, because they don't have homes...so it just happens out in the open.


It feels though, like they're making the same mistake that gets made over and over again. If they're expecting that building a new arena right across from the old arena is somehow going to alter that dynamic. It will not. You have to take deliberate action on that to make a difference.

Said population lives in some of the most valuable land in all of downtown Edmonton, it is reasonable to want to make more efficient use of that land by building it up. What was unreasonable was not having a concrete plan in place for dealing with the issue and just hoping.

Yeah. This is what it ultimately comes down to. These are places that should be revitalized and built up into phenomenal public gathering places and hubs of entertainment and community.

The problem is...when you undertake these sort of projects with heavy public funding, that doesn't leave any money to actually address the underlying problems that plague these places in the first place. When they don't have shelters, transitional options, safe injection sites, etc...they're just going to continue to exist where they've always existed. The public suffers the costs, in making these areas less enticing for exciting businesses, and less enjoyable for the average person to just enjoy, bring their kids down and explore, etc.


It's a lot cheaper and more effective to just spend public money on addressing the problems directly. Rather than paying for a new toy for a billionaire that isn't going to change a darn thing about the underlying issues.

 

[Mike Jones]

I’m surprised tbh. Thought it would have been closer to 25 lol.

It's getting there. The cost overrun thing is probably going to finish the job.

 

[deleted user]

Yeah, I'm just using our word for ourselves. But sure, you're correct. I spent Dec 10 2015 till March 8 2019 being one of those unhoused peeps. Roaming that area. Most of us used the term. *shrugs*

 

[biturbo19]

Well then how come the public will didn't elect somebody else? You'd think after all these terrible economic decisions the public would give someone else a shot. There was a provincial election after the announced deal was agreed upon. Instead the same party that has been ruling this province for 46 out of the last 52 years won and the status quo was maintained.

Every single one of the districts involving this project and anywhere even close to surrounding it...in fact voted for someone else to handle it provincially. But it didn't take, because other voters nowhere nearby decided they wanted to buy Calgary's billionaire a new arena i guess.

Doesn't mean it's a good deal for Albertans or Calgarians, or that most people wanted it. Or that it's not even a product of an incredibly corrupt process.

 

[Bond]

Murray stomped his feet and got what he wanted. City should get a stake in the team with how lopsided that deal is

 

[Devonator]

Then I'm surprised you approve this deal. Especially now that we're also covering cost overruns. We'd better hope we don't need the fire or police departments anytime soon. And say goodbye to the outreach teams helping and caring for the tent city residents we've all been complaining about. And kiss the roads goodbye.

I suppose none of that matters as long as the billionaires who own the Flames get richer.

I think you are clearly exaggerating or viewing the worse case scenario....your alternative I am guessing is let the Flames walk away from our city? How would that help us economically? I believe if we do a Cost/Benefit analysis, you will see that in the short term possibly but absolutely in the long term, economically speaking, the Flames add huge amounts of dollars to the city.....think about how much in taxes we get off from the Flames and their owners? You are not seeing the larger picture......while I would agree this is not a perfect deal, the alternative does not bear thinking about.

 

[Osakahaus]

So is the area actually good for Calgary? This seems like a really bad shake for Albertans.

 

[Bounces R Way]

We'll see how the people of Peace River and Grande Prairie like seeing their tax dollars go to pay for Calgary infrastructure. Infrastructure that will help whiny rich billionaires get even richer.

Welcome to how provincial taxes work
Part of my tax dollars went to purchasing a Tractor for the Baytex Energy Centre in Peace River in 2020. Am I ever going to see a personal benefit from that? No. And Grande Prarie do you have any idea how much public money has gone to funding infrastructure or providing tax breaks for Oil companies that have projects in that area?

Sorry they're not moving to Houston. Your crusade has failed. Maybe if a new arena for a city that badly needed one is such a personal affront to you you could just, move to Houston.

I do like the blame being shifted to the public here, very classy stuff. It’s the peasants fault really! Just saying, the majority of Calgary’s ridings went to the NDP. Status quo my ass.

You're the one that brought it up :

Especially when both are responsible to produce an outcome that is not the desire of the public will NOR empirically logical in an economic sense.

If the public will is infallible, then why did it in your view fail here.

ooooo questioning my class. Making personal attacks on the internet definitely the sign of a learned and righteous individual.
Clearly you just don't have an argument and want to be mad. Go ahead. Blame whoever you want. And I'll keep pointing out the hypocrisy of it.

Every single one of the districts involving this project and anywhere even close to surrounding it...in fact voted for someone else to handle it provincially. But it didn't take, because other voters nowhere nearby decided they wanted to buy Calgary's billionaire a new arena i guess.

Doesn't mean it's a good deal for Albertans or Calgarians, or that most people wanted it. Or that it's not even a product of an incredibly corrupt process.

Never said it was a good deal. It's not. It was never going to be. That's not CSEC's fault, it's the system they are acting within. CSEC isn't beholden to taxpayer wishes. If people wanted to change the system bad enough they would have elected someone else to make that happen. They didn't.

 

[super6646]

Welcome to how provincial taxes work
Part of my tax dollars went to purchasing a Tractor for the Baytex Energy Centre in Peace River in 2020. Am I ever going to see a personal benefit from that? No. And Grande Prarie do you have any idea how much public money has gone to funding infrastructure or providing tax breaks for Oil companies that have projects in that area?

Sorry they're not moving to Houston. Your crusade has failed. Maybe if a new arena for a city that badly needed one is such a personal affront to you you could just, move to Houston.



You're the one that brought it up :



If the public will is infallible, then why did it in your view fail here.

ooooo questioning my class. Making personal attacks on the internet definitely the sign of a learned and righteous individual.
Clearly you just don't have an argument and want to be mad. Go ahead. Blame whoever you want. And I'll keep pointing out the hypocrisy of it.



Never said it was a good deal. It's not. It was never going to be. That's not CSEC's fault, it's the system they are acting within. CSEC isn't beholden to taxpayer wishes. If people wanted to change the system bad enough they would have elected someone else to make that happen. They didn't.

So you’re just resorting to making shit up. That’s funny. The economic point was exactly because the public is not infallible and provided an impartial and empirical basis for my point. And who said anything about your class? You’re the one who has gone on with the blame and continues to peddle same point that it’s the voters fault when it’s been pointed by 2 posters that the voters of Calgary asked for change. You are the same one with presumptuous assumptions of the “general public” assuming billionaires should be altruistic as well. Condescending much?

You aren’t exposing any hypocrisy lol

 

[biturbo19]

I think you are clearly exaggerating or viewing the worse case scenario....your alternative I am guessing is let the Flames walk away from our city? How would that help us economically? I believe if we do a Cost/Benefit analysis, you will see that in the short term possibly but absolutely in the long term, economically speaking, the Flames add huge amounts of dollars to the city.....think about how much in taxes we get off from the Flames and their owners? You are not seeing the larger picture......while I would agree this is not a perfect deal, the alternative does not bear thinking about.

Ehhh...there's definitely significant economic benefit to be reaped from having the Flames in town. But it's not in the way you're conceiving it.

The Flames owners and millionaire players are all paying such a low effective tax rate, they're not even paying close to their share relative to the average Albertan who is now funding a huge share of this project.

The real economic benefit to the taxpayer and especially Calgarians...is if you create a project that truly makes that area into a massively valuable, highly developed, heavily trafficked "destination". That brings in businesses, drives land values through the roof, which in turn...generates extensive tax revenue for the city to actually spend on, and sustain serious programs that can in turn, sustainably address the problems that are keeping people away from hanging out near the existing arena (in basically the same place) right now.

Welcome to how provincial taxes work
Part of my tax dollars went to purchasing a Tractor for the Baytex Energy Centre in Peace River in 2020. Am I ever going to see a personal benefit from that? No. And Grande Prarie do you have any idea how much public money has gone to funding infrastructure or providing tax breaks for Oil companies that have projects in that area?

Sorry they're not moving to Houston. Your crusade has failed. Maybe if a new arena for a city that badly needed one is such a personal affront to you you could just, move to Houston.



You're the one that brought it up :



If the public will is infallible, then why did it in your view fail here.

ooooo questioning my class. Making personal attacks on the internet definitely the sign of a learned and righteous individual.
Clearly you just don't have an argument and want to be mad. Go ahead. Blame whoever you want. And I'll keep pointing out the hypocrisy of it.



Never said it was a good deal. It's not. It was never going to be. That's not CSEC's fault, it's the system they are acting within. CSEC isn't beholden to taxpayer wishes. If people wanted to change the system bad enough they would have elected someone else to make that happen. They didn't.

The thing is, it's pretty clear that the people who actually live around there and understand the impacts and how the deal would work, gave a pretty clear mandate against this deal. Instead, some random voters in like Dimsdale (yes that's an actual place) voted overwhelmingly for a mandate that tangentially validated this deal and gave them carte blanche to continue to spend on helping out their billionaire buddies. Despite having absolutely zero comprehension of how this would impact the local economy or anything.


You seem to be intent on this notion that, "they've wasted a ton of other money on bad infrastructure and projects" and somehow that means, "might as well just keep doing bad deals because it helps the corporations". Which is absurd.

 

[End on a Hinote]

You obviously don't pay taxes. There are more important things we should be investing in. And with the city covering cost overruns it's going to be an even bigger disaster.

If the Flames don't want to pay for an arena they can leave. Enjoy Houston fellas.

We're you a Flames fan before this and decided to ditch them because of this arena deal? Serious question.

Still can’t get over it being called an “event center

Might be a Canadian thing. I know a lot of arenas in my area that are referred to as event centre's.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I honestly think that cities need to stop paying for arenas / stadiums for billionaires to have there toys.

Hard agree, but if an owner is holding the city hostage about it, in Canada you can't say no without huge political ramifications.

 

[Bounces R Way]

So you’re just resorting to making shit up. That’s funny. The economic point was exactly because the public is not always infallible and provided an impartial and empirical basis for my point.

I haven't seen any impartial or empirical evidence in your posts. If you want to provide some point me to it.

And who said anything about your class?

you did. Right here when you were quoting me:

super6646 said:
I do like the blame being shifted to the public here, very classy stuff.

when you imagined I am shifting blame to the public. It's you who should be blaming the public if you feel that Gondek and Smith have failed in their duty to their constituents. The public elected them. Them holding office is literally the will of the public.

You’re the one who has gone on with the blame and continues to peddle same point that it’s the voters fault when it’s been pointed by 2 posters that the voters of Calgary asked for change. You are the same one with presumptuous assumptions of the “general public” assuming billionaires should altruistic as well. Condescending much?

You aren’t exposing any hypocrisy lol

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. The hypocrisy I see is Albertans getting their underwear twisted about a deal that benefits the Flames when they've been relatively quiet about the millions on billions of public money benefitting foreign Oil companies and others in this province for the last 50 years. You know how I judge them to be relatively quiet? Because they've elected the same party every election but one in that time.

That's pretty clear dictionary definition hypocrisy. If you're going to be angry about something, when the time comes to do something about it you should do something about it.

The thing is, it's pretty clear that the people who actually live around there and understand the impacts and how the deal would work, gave a pretty clear mandate against this deal. Instead, some random voters in like Dimsdale (yes that's an actual place) voted overwhelmingly for a mandate that tangentially validated this deal and gave them carte blanche to continue to spend on helping out their billionaire buddies. Despite having absolutely zero comprehension of how this would impact the local economy or anything.

That's a lot of assumptions for one paragraph. That the immediate area local population were voting exclusively against the arena deal and that all other votes were ill informed being the major one. The city council voted unanimously in favor of this deal. Am I led to believe that every elected official in this city is nothing but a two bit crook in Murray Edwards' pocket?

You seem to be intent on this notion that, "they've wasted a ton of other money on bad infrastructure and projects" and somehow that means, "might as well just keep doing bad deals because it helps the corporations". Which is absurd.

Well they have. Unquestionably they have. It is my view that the day of the good deal is long dead, and that late stage capitalism will soon succeed in sucking the middle class dry. Viewing it through that context I can be degrees more pleased with spending public money that benefits a Calgary based company, that has deep roots in the community of Calgary, who are providing a public entertainment service important to many Calgarians. If you think that's absurd you're welcome to your opinion.

 

[snag]

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. The hypocrisy I see is Albertans getting their underwear twisted about a deal that benefits the Flames when they've been relatively quiet about the millions on billions of public money benefitting foreign Oil companies and others in this province for the last 50 years. You know how I judge them to be relatively quiet? Because they've elected the same party every election but one in that time.

That's pretty clear dictionary definition hypocrisy. If you're going to be angry about something, when the time comes to do something about it you should do something about it.

However you slice it, right or wrong....public money going to oil companies enriched Alberta immensely through population growth, employment, royalties, taxes, infrastructure development, etc...

There is no hypocrisy in this comparison cause it is a non-f***ing-comparable.

 

[Bounces R Way]

However you slice it, right or wrong....public money going to oil companies enriched Alberta immensely through population growth, employment, royalties, taxes, infrastructure development, etc...

There is no hypocrisy in this comparison cause it is a non-f***ing-comparable.

Sure

Instances of public money going to one for profit company can in no way be compared to other instances of public money going to a different for profit company. They are clearly non-f***ing comparable. Makes sense.

 

[Mike Jones]

I think you are clearly exaggerating or viewing the worse case scenario....your alternative I am guessing is let the Flames walk away from our city? How would that help us economically? I believe if we do a Cost/Benefit analysis, you will see that in the short term possibly but absolutely in the long term, economically speaking, the Flames add huge amounts of dollars to the city.....think about how much in taxes we get off from the Flames and their owners? You are not seeing the larger picture......while I would agree this is not a perfect deal, the alternative does not bear thinking about.

We'll see how bad it gets - and it's probably going to be really bad.

Losing the Flames would allow the arena to generate revenue for the city. Right now, with the Flames running the show, they get all the revenue while sending pennies back to the city. Without the Flames that money goes to the city.

And the Flames don't 'add' that much to the city. It's our money being spent on the Flames. We buy the tickets and beer. That isn't ownership money. If and when the Flames leave that money remains in the city and can be spent in other places.

I wish Houston luck with this bunch. They're gonna need it.

 

[Mike Jones]

Welcome to how provincial taxes work
Part of my tax dollars went to purchasing a Tractor for the Baytex Energy Centre in Peace River in 2020. Am I ever going to see a personal benefit from that? No. And Grande Prarie do you have any idea how much public money has gone to funding infrastructure or providing tax breaks for Oil companies that have projects in that area?

Sorry they're not moving to Houston. Your crusade has failed. Maybe if a new arena for a city that badly needed one is such a personal affront to you you could just, move to Houston.

I know how taxes work. I pay enough of them. Provincial tax money spent on this arena project it wasted as it should be Flames owners paying for everything. This entire project should be privately funded - period. An arena isn't a common good - especially when it's the Flames getting all the money and sending pennies back to taxpayers.

If the Flames don't want to pay for everything they can leave and we can start making money off of an arena.

And wishing the Flames well in Houston isn't a crusade. If they don't want to pay their bills here why should we want them to stick around?

We're you a Flames fan before this and decided to ditch them because of this arena deal? Serious question.

I'm a Calgary taxpayer who once attended games and purchased stuff, yes. But now I refuse to go to a game where money goes to an ownership group that does not want to pay its way and expects everything for nothing.

When the Flames pay for their new toy - including infrastructure and demolition costs - I'll pay attention to them again. Until then, my money goes elsewhere in the Calgary economy.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

$1.2B. Wow. And given this is the new Cantada, it will take 10 years to get built. It's taken almost that long just to get a deal done. The weird thing is I still love how the Saddledome looks but I guess it's already obsolete because it's not profitable enough. What a world.

 

[Mike Jones]

$1.2B. Wow. And given this is the new Cantada, it will take 10 years to get built. It's taken almost that long just to get a deal done. The weird thing is I still love how the Saddledome looks but I guess it's already obsolete because it's not profitable enough. What a world.

The Saddledome is still viable - except in the foggy eyes of the pathologically greedy NHL.

Lots of us live in older homes that need work from time to time. We do our renovations and we pay our bills and taxes.

The Saddledome needs its fair share of work but it doesn't need to be demolished. If someone wants to replace it they can pay for everything themselves.

 

[ManofSteel55]

The Saddledome is stiff viable - except in the foggy eyes of the pathologically greedy NHL.

Lots of us live in older homes that need work from time to time. We do our renovations and we pay our bills and taxes.

The Saddledome needs its fair share of work but it doesn't need to be demolished. If someone wants to replace it they can pay for everything themselves.

It's viable in that it works, and it turns a profit. It's not viable in that it doesn't line the pockets of the wealthy as much as it could if they had a new, larger arena to play in that was paid for with public dollars.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

I hope they keep the locker rooms the same, there is no need to update them. One of the nicest modern day facilities I’ve ever seen.

 

[Mike Jones]

It's viable in that it works, and it turns a profit. It's not viable in that it doesn't line the pockets of the wealthy as much as it could if they had a new, larger arena to play in that was paid for with public dollars.

As long as it turns a profit we should keep it open and keep using it. if the Flames want bigger and better they can get some investment partners and build their own fancy arena. It's not a common good (Only affluent people of those with access to tickets can afford to pay to get into anything) so there's no need to spend tax dollars on it.