Calgary announces agreement for new $1.2 billion arena for the Flames

[Mike Jones]

Its public roads surrounding the arena, i dont pay for building up the roads in my neighborhood if im building a house? At the end of the day you clearly want the flames to just pay for and own the arena and thats fine, but i think its the city that wants the own the land and the complex. Theres no chance if im Murray that im paying to build the arena so someone else can own it, how rich i am doesnt matter.

The city charges people and companies for things like roads, paved alleys, sidewalks, etc all the time. It's expensive. The Flames should have to pay as well. For everything - just like us taxpayers. And the city is wrong for wanting to own anything connected to the new arena. The Flames should purchase the land at market value or find another location. If the Flames don't want to build their own arena they can leave and our economy can improve. NHL teams are hostile to local economies and it's time people took the time to learn why.

 

[crazyfisherman]

The city charges people and companies for things like roads, paved alleys, sidewalks, etc all the time. It's expensive. The Flames should have to pay as well. For everything - just like us taxpayers. And the city is wrong for wanting to own anything connected to the new arena. The Flames should purchase the land at market value or find another location. If the Flames don't want to build their own arena they can leave and our economy can improve. NHL teams are hostile to local economies and it's time people took the time to learn why.

Ok well they can charge whoever owns the arena then, oh wait, the city owns the arena, and the land. If the river district gets built up the way its supposed to, the value if this deal can slant heavily towards city as the land value rises, that's probably why the city wanted the land in the end. What does hostile to the local economy even mean, 500m city spends definitely generates more economic value than anything else the city has built.

 

[Mike Jones]

Ok well they can charge whoever owns the arena then, oh wait, the city owns the arena, and the land. If the river district gets built up the way its supposed to, the value if this deal can slant heavily towards city as the land value rises, that's probably why the city wanted the land in the end. What does hostile to the local economy even mean, 500m city spends definitely generates more economic value than anything else the city has built.

Development can also happen with a privately funded arena project and the city benefits through full taxation on both the arena and the new housing and businesses. There is absolutely no reason for taxpayers to be on the hook for any of this. The city's biggest mistake was falling for this nonsense that they had to pay for and own the new arena while the Flames ran away with all the money. They had to call the Flames bluff and say that if the team didn't want to pay for everything then they could do whatever they want. And the province's biggest mistake was offering to pay for infrastructure the Flames should be paying for. It's time for cities to start calling the NHL's bluff and insist that teams pay their way.

 

[crazyfisherman]

Development can also happen with a privately funded arena project and the city benefits through full taxation on both the arena and the new housing and businesses. There is absolutely no reason for taxpayers to be on the hook for any of this. The city's biggest mistake was falling for this nonsense that they had to pay for and own the new arena while the Flames ran away with all the money. They had to call the Flames bluff and say that if the team didn't want to pay for everything then they could do whatever they want. And the province's biggest mistake was offering to pay for infrastructure the Flames should be paying for. It's time for cities to start calling the NHL's bluff and insist that teams pay their way.

What are you even talking about at this point. Could this have been done fully privately funded? Yea probably, but not a chance if the city didnt want to sell the land, which apparently was the case. You act like CSEC got everything as if they owned everything and city just paid for it which is absolutely not the case. City had to pay for the value its getting for its part of the deal. You say it like its such a waste of tax dollar money when its probably one of the most revenue generating investment the city has ever made.

 

[Mike Jones]

What are you even talking about at this point. Could this have been done fully privately funded? Yea probably, but not a chance if the city didnt want to sell the land, which apparently was the case. You act like CSEC got everything as if they owned everything and city just paid for it which is absolutely not the case. City had to pay for the value its getting for its part of the deal. You say it like its such a waste of tax dollar money when its probably one of the most revenue generating investment the city has ever made.

A privately funded arena should be the only deal on the board right from the start but our city and provincial 'leaders' weren't capable of insisting on it. They're throwing hundreds of millions down the toilet instead. And the city is getting no value for what we're investing as the Flames will be getting most, if not all of the revenue from games and events. The city and province's sacrifice are pointless. There's no profit in this for anybody other than billionaires and developers. Let's not forget the developers getting rich of construction around the arena. Do you seriously think that they'll be paying taxes to the city? No way. They'll have their hands out too and there will be no tax revenue for that development and growth either. There's no win here for the city, province or taxpayers. There was no point in making any deal other than demanding that the Flames pay for everything.

 

[Barrsy]

Ok well they can charge whoever owns the arena then, oh wait, the city owns the arena, and the land. If the river district gets built up the way its supposed to, the value if this deal can slant heavily towards city as the land value rises, that's probably why the city wanted the land in the end. What does hostile to the local economy even mean, 500m city spends definitely generates more economic value than anything else the city has built.

The city owns the arena in name only. And the reason for that is because the city doesn’t pay taxes to itself. Furthuremore, many arenas are built without public money. The only reason there is public money in this was so Smith could buy votes with the whole provinces money.Why a guy in Edmonton is paying for a rich guys toy in Calgary is bs. But of course Berta goin to Berta.

What are you even talking about at this point. Could this have been done fully privately funded? Yea probably, but not a chance if the city didnt want to sell the land, which apparently was the case. You act like CSEC got everything as if they owned everything and city just paid for it which is absolutely not the case. City had to pay for the value it’s getting for its part of the deal. You say it like it’s such a waste of tax dollar money when it’s probably one of the most revenue generating investment the city has ever made.

There’s multiple, multiple studies that new arenas are revenue neutral for a city. Al it does is rearrange the deck chairs.

 

[crazyfisherman]

The city owns the arena in name only. And the reason for that is because the city doesn’t pay taxes to itself. Furthuremore, many arenas are built without public money. The only reason there is public money in this was so Smith could buy votes with the whole provinces money.Why a guy in Edmonton is paying for a rich guys toy in Calgary is bs. But of course Berta goin to Berta.


There’s multiple, multiple studies that new arenas are revenue neutral for a city. Al it does is rearrange the deck chairs.

The city owns the arena and the land which in itself has significant value. If after the new arena gets built and the river district becomes a hot spot, the city then all of a sudden gets a ton of value for the land its sitting on. I totally agree with smith is trying to weasel her name into this to get votes but the money is coming out of the infrastructure budget assigned to Calgary and its not even directly for the arena, its for the surrounding infrastructure. Claiming your edm tax dollar is a waste for building up roads in Calgary is like saying Calgary tax dollar is a waste for fixing the henday.

If investment is revenue neutral to the city but keeping the team here generates so much for the local economy seems like a clear win then? If the flames arent in Calgary, how many are going bar on a tuesday night in the middle of December?

 

[crazyfisherman]

A privately funded arena should be the only deal on the board right from the start but our city and provincial 'leaders' weren't capable of insisting on it. They're throwing hundreds of millions down the toilet instead. And the city is getting no value for what we're investing as the Flames will be getting most, if not all of the revenue from games and events. The city and province's sacrifice are pointless. There's no profit in this for anybody other than billionaires and developers. Let's not forget the developers getting rich of construction around the arena. Do you seriously think that they'll be paying taxes to the city? No way. They'll have their hands out too and there will be no tax revenue for that development and growth either. There's no win here for the city, province or taxpayers. There was no point in making any deal other than demanding that the Flames pay for everything.

Its clear you are on the side of if they leave no big deal. Ask if the bar owners and casinos along the elbow agrees with you. To say theres nothing in keeping a big 4 sports team in the city excpet for the billionaires and developers is a complete fabrication. If the city sells the arena and the land to the flames after river district is built up and land value rises then what do you say? Is the deal fantastic? No, but its certainly isnt the horrible abomination some are making it out to be, its just somewhere in between. If you cant see that theres value in this deal for the city and having a sports team in the city then ofc you will think its a horrendous deal. No shit flames will get most of the revenue, they are the one actually generating the value, all you have is a building and the cf leasing the building generates. If the building revenue end up being neutral for the city but building up surround local economy then its gonna be a win. Also, why should privately funded be the only option, and dont say cuz they are rich because thats a horrible argument, city gets something in return for its investment, its not just throwing money at rich people.

 

[Mike Jones]

Its clear you are on the side of if they leave no big deal. Ask if the bar owners and casinos along the elbow agrees with you. To say theres nothing in keeping a big 4 sports team in the city excpet for the billionaires and developers is a complete fabrication. If the city sells the arena and the land to the flames after river district is built up and land value rises then what do you say? Is the deal fantastic? No, but its certainly isnt the horrible abomination some are making it out to be, its just somewhere in between. If you cant see that theres value in this deal for the city and having a sports team in the city then ofc you will think its a horrendous deal. No shit flames will get most of the revenue, they are the one actually generating the value, all you have is a building and the cf leasing the building generates. If the building revenue end up being neutral for the city but building up surround local economy then its gonna be a win

The city won't be able to sell the arena when the Flames are done with it. That's yet another problem. Who's going to want to buy an outdated arena? We'll be stuck with yet another white elephant because the Flames will have a new arena and be demand that the city tear down the one they just left. Again, there's no benefit to the city and will still cost us millions we will never get back.

And yes, the economy will improve as money spent on the Flames will be spent elsewhere, and perhaps more broadly in the local economy.

Losing the team will be a win/win for Calgary taxpayers and the wider business community.

 

[crazyfisherman]

The city won't be able to sell the arena when the Flames are done with it. That's yet another problem. Who's going to want to buy an outdated arena? We'll be stuck with yet another white elephant because the Flames will have a new arena and be demand that the city tear down the one they just left. Again, there's no benefit to the city and will still cost us millions we will never get back.

And yes, the economy will improve as money spent on the Flames will be spent elsewhere, and perhaps more broadly in the local economy.

Losing the team will be a win/win for Calgary taxpayers and the wider business community.

No point arguing then, saying the Calgary economy will be better without the flames is lol worthy

 

[Mike Jones]

No point arguing then, saying the Calgary economy will be better without the flames is lol worthy

You can believe what you want. I'll keep fighting for taxpayers and the people who are going to have to pay for this disaster.

 

[Barrsy]

The city owns the arena and the land which in itself has significant value. If after the new arena gets built and the river district becomes a hot spot, the city then all of a sudden gets a ton of value for the land its sitting on. I totally agree with smith is trying to weasel her name into this to get votes but the money is coming out of the infrastructure budget assigned to Calgary and its not even directly for the arena, its for the surrounding infrastructure. Claiming your edm tax dollar is a waste for building up roads in Calgary is like saying Calgary tax dollar is a waste for fixing the henday.

If investment is revenue neutral to the city but keeping the team here generates so much for the local economy seems like a clear win then? If the flames arent in Calgary, how many are going bar on a tuesday night in the middle of December?

Its funny you say there is value to the Arena once the lease runs out. That like saying there is value to the Saddldome. There isn't. It will be demolished.
And dont make things up. The funding for the Arena from the Province is not coming from their existing infrastructure pot. Its new funding
Lastly, there are a million studies saying an arena is not a net positive monetarily for a City. Its revenue neutral at the end of the day. Again, it just shuffles the deck chairs.
How anybody is good with a private business' getting hundreds of millions of free $$ is a wonder. Especially for a guy like Edwards who has already R & pillaged our province. And the free enterprisers who are so against public subsidies. Except of course when its in their self interest, for their buddies or for the Oil & Gas industry.

 

[crazyfisherman]

Its funny you say there is value to the Arena once the lease runs out. That like saying there is value to the Saddldome. There isn't. It will be demolished.
And dont make things up. The funding for the Arena from the Province is not coming from their existing infrastructure pot. Its new funding
Lastly, there are a million studies saying an arena is not a net positive monetarily for a City. Its revenue neutral at the end of the day. Again, it just shuffles the deck chairs.
How anybody is good with a private business' getting hundreds of millions of free $$ is a wonder. Especially for a guy like Edwards who has already R & pillaged our province. And the free enterprisers who are so against public subsidies. Except of course when its in their self interest, for their buddies or for the Oil & Gas industry.

I have not once said anything about what happens once lease runs out, that building is what it is, after 35 years yea ita probably valueless, but the land the building its sitting on will, i dont even know why you are talking about the stadium value because i didnt mention it. The provincial funding is coming out of that 2.9B capital allocated to Calgary, Edmonton got $3.2B and it could very well go into developing the ice district. This isnt Calgary getting some special treatment from the province, its smith being scummy by putting her name in the arena deal depite bringing pretty much nothing to the actual arena.

I keep seeing its millionaires getting free money, how exactly is this the case. CSEC and city splits the cost of the builidng, city pays more but owns the building and the land while flames pays rent to use it. PV of that $750m over 35 years the flames prob isnt that much less than what the city pays upfront.

Btw feel free to post about your articles. Only ones ive seen have said that its inclusive, granted i didnt look very hard or look thru a bunch.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

No point arguing then, saying the Calgary economy will be better without the flames is lol worthy

If the Flames left the city, there would be little if any appreciable net economic loss to the Calgary economy.

 

[MMC]

 

[Mike Jones]

Another reminder of the hideous deal signed by our genius city council and Provincial government. The only group that benefits from this deal are the rich Flames owners. They run away with most of the revenue and only throw pennies back at taxpayers. Nice work Mayor and Premier.

 

[super6646]

Another reminder of the hideous deal signed by our genius city council and Provincial government. The only group that benefits from this deal are the rich Flames owners. They run away with most of the revenue and only throw pennies back at taxpayers. Nice work Mayor and Premier.

But it had to get done!!!!!

f***ing jabronis.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Yes, the hundreds of thousands of fans that will use and enjoy the new event center and a rejuvenated area of downtown will experience no benefits.

what a scam

 

[Larry Hanson]

Should have got it done 10 years ago. Kicking the can down the road over and over again has cost us dearly. We have an arena that is literally falling apart and now the new one will be 2-3 times the cost.

 

[Three On Zero]

Yes, the hundreds of thousands of fans that will use and enjoy the new event center and a rejuvenated area of downtown will experience no benefits.

what a scam

Biggest concern people in Alberta should have is what happened to Edmontons ice district. A lot was over promised and the area is riddled with drugs/homelessness

 

[Mike Jones]

But it had to get done!!!!!

f***ing jabronis.

No it didn't. It could have been a privately funded project. The city had a responsibility to stand up for taxpayers and demand that the Flames pay their way. Instead they caved and gave the Flames everything for virtually nothing.

The Flames can't move to Houston fast enough.

 

[super6646]

Yes, the hundreds of thousands of fans that will use and enjoy the new event center and a rejuvenated area of downtown will experience no benefits.

what a scam

Tell that to Edmonton’s arena. I can walk 2 blocks and experience my rejuvenation as I step over dozens of heroin needles and experience the finest tent city east of the Rockies.

Scam. The day cities have the balls to stand up to these Robber barons (might only come when pigs fly) and actually demand private corps pay for what they will profit and actually give af about their constituents will be a fine day indeed.

 

[Canucks LB]

Should have got it done 10 years ago. Kicking the can down the road over and over again has cost us dearly. We have an arena that is literally falling apart and now the new one will be 2-3 times the cost.

This is 100% true
Everything has skyrocketed over two or three times right now
It was a huge, huge mistake

 

[biturbo19]

Biggest concern people in Alberta should have is what happened to Edmontons ice district. A lot was over promised and the area is riddled with drugs/homelessness

It just doesn't work unless there's a comprehensive social and development plan to address the underlying problems.

Just plunking a shiny (ugly) new arena in there with a handful of halfway vacant "$3M luxury condo" towers doesn't actually magically solve the fundamental problems.

You need to figure out how you're going to address the homelessness issues. You need to bring in housing that is actually "affordable" and will be lived in by people. When you generate more natural foot traffic by people actually living and existing in those spaces, it tends to at least push those problems out toward somewhere else. Ice district seemed intent on recouping all the costs with huge dollar luxury places that don't bring persistent population to the area. Especially if they're vacant and unsold, or sold but still vacant as a 3rd or 4th home for someone international.


Same thing has happened with Edmonton's LRT. They refuse to invest properly in expanding it to make it more useful...so it gets underutilized, and becomes a haven for all of the other unresolved underlying social problems in the city. Becomes a death spiral that feeds on itself and just gets worse and worse.


If they'd had all that public money that went into the Arena and luxury development, to spend on social housing, transition housing, recovery programs, etc...they'd have ended up with a far better result for the city. It's not like Katz couldn't have afforded to pull his own weight. But they never held him to task on it and now the whole thing is kind of a mess with businesses pulling out of the area all over the place because nobody wants to spend time, or feels safe there.

 

[deleted user]

Downtown Calgary and the areas around where this will be are already full of tweaked out hobos.