Calgary announces agreement for new $1.2 billion arena for the Flames

[Bounces R Way]

It's almost like they're telling on themselves, really. Couldn't say I'm not surprised they don't use the public library.

I'll have to check out the condescension section the next time I'm there.

You know of course that is in the unlikely event I can't find a piece of written or audio literature for free or negligible cost on the world wide web and am just fine with a 4 month waiting list.

 

[Backlund]

So let calgarians pay for it then

We're going to build an arena and Edmonton is going to pay for it.

 

[1989]

I'll have to check out the condescension section the next time I'm there.

You know of course that is in the unlikely event I can't find a piece of written or audio literature for free or negligible cost on the world wide web and am just fine with a 4 month waiting list.

If that's what passes for wit by you, perhaps you should follow up on the literature you so handily have access to.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yes thank God the seniors have a 300M room to sit quietly and stare out the window and junkies a place to sleep off their comedown now. There's plenty of perfectly fine community libraries throughout the city. This isn't Plato founding the Academy in Athens

It was very obviously a vanity project. What makes one a "good investment" and the other throwing money down a pit?

Libraries are facilities open to the public at no cost, which provides numerous services and allows people to inhabit a space without needing to pay money for it. Maybe the government spent too much on it, maybe not, but at the end of the day it is a project that is directly useful to the public.

A hockey arena is a private building that (generally) requires payment or employment in order to actually enter. Retail spaces, residential spaces, etc. are of the same vein. Those are not public services.

By the way, your attitude towards addiction is incredibly ignorant and callous.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

300 million on a library makes it more of an art project than a library, I appreciate the shared spaces it has but it probably has one book in it for every $15,000 spent

It's four stories and 240,000 square feet, and also was built on top of an existing light rail track (as someone who has done medium-scale renovation projects, I can appreciate the litany of problems that can occur with trying to build around major existing infrastructure).

The number isn't exactly shocking, and having a public building that is meant to serve as an iconic piece of architecture isn't necessarily bad. Especially if it is a library, which is an incredibly important public good.

For comparison, the renovation of an existing library in New York cost about $317 million in 2017/2018.

 

[BLNY]

Great way to move on from Sutter and get value out of his remaining $8 million owed: hire him to bring down his farm equipment and prepare the land for construction.

 

[joestevens29]

This city spent 25 million on a giant blue ring and a chinese fingertrap pedestrian bridge. They spent 300 million on a pretty public library when you know, the internet exists. They funneled millions and millions of dollars into the East Village only to make the area next to worthless by reupping the Drop In center's lease.

And yet they continue to fail upwards and run a 200M surplus year after year. Is a sports arena a good investment? No. It was never going to be and that's assumed. But it has a whole lot more merit and does a lot more to raise the standard of living for its citizens than a lot of the other bs they've done.

I need more information on this.

 

[EddieTheEagle]

I need more information on this.

I mean, he isn't wrong...

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I mean, he isn't wrong...

View attachment 698300

At least it looks slick.

But obviously more money and resources should be put into the transit system and it's alarming lack of security.

 

[joestevens29]

I mean, he isn't wrong...

View attachment 698300

Yep that looks like a Chinese finger trap. Can't believe I never heard about this before.

 

[Edenjung]

I'll have to check out the condescension section the next time I'm there.

You know of course that is in the unlikely event I can't find a piece of written or audio literature for free or negligible cost on the world wide web and am just fine with a 4 month waiting list.

There are enough studies that show that public liberies are important.
Both for social capital, as well as education and that their costs are massively outweight by their benefit for society.

Do public libraries contribute to social capital?: A preliminary investigation into the relationship

Public libraries have been held in high regard by communities since they were established in North America in the mid-19th century. Recently, with the…

www.sciencedirect.com

Perceived outcomes of public libraries in the U.S.

Public libraries are under constant pressure to demonstrate their worth. Outcome measures can present the benefits public libraries bring to individua…

www.sciencedirect.com

Are public libraries worth their price? A contingent valuation study of Norwegian public libraries | Emerald Insight

Are public libraries worth their price? A contingent valuation study of Norwegian public libraries - Author: Svanhild Aabø

www.emerald.com

Do libraries matter? Public libraries and the creation of social capital | Emerald Insight

Do libraries matter? Public libraries and the creation of social capital - Author: Andreas Vårheim, Sven Steinmo, Eisaku Ide

www.emerald.com

And while you might not have a need to use them, others have and especially people from low income or disadvantaged backgrounds profit from them massively.

 

[Figgy44]

Yep that looks like a Chinese finger trap. Can't believe I never heard about this before.

Yeah the peace bridge has been called a finger trap for a while.

Idiots keep going there and smashing the curved glass. They'll walk up with a hammer and just go up and down until the panels are all busted. The city apparently has a bunch of replacement panels in storage from when the bridge was first built, but has been investigating a curved plexiglass for when they run out of placements.

The bridge is actually a nice piece of art. The blue ring and suspended rocks are examples of how that part of the rule got lazy and stupid. The exposed metal rusty structure trend such as the Memorial word also got old fast (no pun intended). As said before, when it comes to project management, I don't have a lot of faith in city council.

 

[Ninety7]

We're going to build an arena and Edmonton is going to pay for it.

Makes sense when you realize that we pretty much own the team already

 

[McFlash97]

We're going to build an arena and Edmonton is going to pay for it.

Calgary looking for charities now from Edmonton. How fitting. Always looking for Edmonton to get things done.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Libraries are facilities open to the public at no cost, which provides numerous services and allows people to inhabit a space without needing to pay money for it. Maybe the government spent too much on it, maybe not, but at the end of the day it is a project that is directly useful to the public.

A hockey arena is a private building that (generally) requires payment or employment in order to actually enter. Retail spaces, residential spaces, etc. are of the same vein. Those are not public services.

There are enough studies that show that public liberies are important.
Both for social capital, as well as education and that their costs are massively outweight by their benefit for society.

Do public libraries contribute to social capital?: A preliminary investigation into the relationship

Public libraries have been held in high regard by communities since they were established in North America in the mid-19th century. Recently, with the…

www.sciencedirect.com

Perceived outcomes of public libraries in the U.S.

Public libraries are under constant pressure to demonstrate their worth. Outcome measures can present the benefits public libraries bring to individua…

www.sciencedirect.com

Are public libraries worth their price? A contingent valuation study of Norwegian public libraries | Emerald Insight

Are public libraries worth their price? A contingent valuation study of Norwegian public libraries - Author: Svanhild Aabø

www.emerald.com

Do libraries matter? Public libraries and the creation of social capital | Emerald Insight

Do libraries matter? Public libraries and the creation of social capital - Author: Andreas Vårheim, Sven Steinmo, Eisaku Ide

www.emerald.com

And while you might not have a need to use them, others have and especially people from low income or disadvantaged backgrounds profit from them massively.

Listen, I realize I may have come off as such earlier but I'm not anti-library. A public space for gathering and learning is worthwhile. I'm not even anti- this specific library. Build shit great, we should continue to be building things. No excuse in this day and age to have crumbling infrastructure in contemporary society. Doesn't change the fact that the actual library part of using a library has been in steep decline in the last 10 years. Nearly a 30% decline in the main service libraries provide in the US and UK. Which is really just a sharpening of the trend of the last 30 years. They're not obsolete yet, but they are certainly heading that direction. My point was that scrutinizing civic spending for one thing and not the other is hypocritical.

To say a library is of benefit to the public and an event centre is not based on whether or not they meet a public service criteria is just on its face ridiculous. The world is not that black and white. Young professionals want things to go do, and the Rivers District project as well as a new event centre are an important part of revitalization in this city.

By the way, your attitude towards addiction is incredibly ignorant and callous.

I worked in addiction for nearly a decade. Buried more people before they hit 35 than I care to remember. Fentanyl is a pox on society. Callous sure, I can see that. I left that field extremely burnt out emotionally. Don't really think herding every addict in the city into the same three blocks is great problem solving but that's the approach most of NA has seemed to adopt. Ignorant though, would be thinking you can gleam someone's entire thoughts and feelings towards something through a couple sentences on a hockey message board.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Listen, I realize I may have come off as such earlier but I'm not anti-library. A public space for gathering and learning is worthwhile. I'm not even anti- this specific library. Build shit great, we should continue to be building things. No excuse in this day and age to have crumbling infrastructure in contemporary society. Doesn't change the fact that the actual library part of using a library has been in steep decline in the last 10 years. Nearly a 30% decline in the main service libraries provide in the US and UK. Which is really just a sharpening of the trend of the last 30 years. They're not obsolete yet, but they are certainly heading that direction. My point was that scrutinizing civic spending for one thing and not the other is hypocritical.

To say a library is of benefit to the public and an event centre is not based on whether or not they meet a public service criteria is just on its face ridiculous. The world is not that black and white. Young professionals want things to go do, and the Rivers District project as well as a new event centre are an important part of revitalization in this city.



I worked in addiction for nearly a decade. Buried more people before they hit 35 than I care to remember. Fentanyl is a pox on society. Callous sure, I can see that. I left that field extremely burnt out emotionally. Don't really think herding every addict in the city into the same three blocks is great problem solving but that's the approach most of NA has seemed to adopt. Ignorant though, would be thinking you can gleam someone's entire thoughts and feelings towards something through a couple sentences on a hockey message board.

My issue with this public spending is that it is funding private enterprise. I said as much already. You are making an assumption that public spending to this private enterprise will be a public benefit, but I have seen nothing that demonstrates that as a reasonable one. Look at the state of "District Detroit" and what happens when you funnel public funds to a private entity in the hopes they will make things better for the public.

And if you are going to flippantly describe addicts as tweakers who are mooching off of the public library then you are going to receive pushback from me for it. If you don't want to be seen as callous, don't act that way.

 

[snag]

OEG with a little passive agressive jab at the Flames after not getting 1 red cent from the provincial government themselves. And now more hands are held out....

 

[BraveCanadian]

Some serious ignorance here regarding what public libraries provide this century.. when was the last time you people were actually in one? It isn't just books any more lol.. they have all kinds of public programs and services. They are certainly more valuable to society than professional hockey.

 

[K1984]

My issue with this public spending is that it is funding private enterprise. I said as much already. You are making an assumption that public spending to this private enterprise will be a public benefit, but I have seen nothing that demonstrates that as a reasonable one. Look at the state of "District Detroit" and what happens when you funnel public funds to a private entity in the hopes they will make things better for the public.

And if you are going to flippantly describe addicts as tweakers who are mooching off of the public library then you are going to receive pushback from me for it. If you don't want to be seen as callous, don't act that way.

Calgary currently has no useable facilities for major events. The Saddledome can't really host concerts because the roof is dumb and performers come to Edmonton. Before long the Saddledome will require significant capital to keep it viable, then at that point the Flames will be in jeopardy as well if they aren't before that point. The building is literally crumbling and it won't be Murray Edwards paying for the renovations just to keep the lights on. It will be a taxpayer problem one way or another.

Saying that a facility that can host concerts, sports and other major events has no public benefit in a city like Calgary is simply incorrect. I just don't understand the thought process behind being willing to watch all of the good things that are a part of a major arena in a major city go away just because someone in the private sector might benefit. Private companies benefit from public money every day on projects far less beneficial than this.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Calgary currently has no useable facilities for major events. The Saddledome can't really host concerts because the roof is dumb and performers come to Edmonton. Before long the Saddledome will require significant capital to keep it viable, then at that point the Flames will be in jeopardy as well if they aren't before that point. The building is literally crumbling and it won't be Murray Edwards paying for the renovations just to keep the lights on. It will be a taxpayer problem one way or another.

Saying that a facility that can host concerts, sports and other major events has no public benefit in a city like Calgary is simply incorrect. I just don't understand the thought process behind being willing to watch all of the good things that are a part of a major arena in a major city go away just because someone in the private sector might benefit. Private companies benefit from public money every day on projects far less beneficial than this.

I thought it was obvious that I was speaking generally, not that no good thing could come from it at all. If someone pushes me into traffic but I find a quarter before being ran over, you can still say a “good” thing came out of it. Your framing of my position is way off the mark.

Also, do you really think it was likely the team would move without free taxpayer money? Do you think that would cost more or less than what it would cost them to build an arena out of their own pockets?

 

[PhysicalGraffiti]

Well now I need to expedite my trip to Calgary to see a game at the Saddledome.

Maybe next season.

 

[Banded Peak]

Also, do you really think it was likely the team would move without free taxpayer money? Do you think that would cost more or less than what it would cost them to build an arena out of their own pockets?

I would expect them to sell the team to someone else at that point. I doubt Murray is spending that kind of money up front to move or build his own facility, he and his ancient co owners would cash out at that point, and Gary Bettman would probably let them.

 

[K1984]

I thought it was obvious that I was speaking generally, not that no good thing could come from it at all. If someone pushes me into traffic but I find a quarter before being ran over, you can still say a “good” thing came out of it. Your framing of my position is way off the mark.

Also, do you really think it was likely the team would move without free taxpayer money? Do you think that would cost more or less than what it would cost them to build an arena out of their own pockets?

Eventually? Absolutely, yes. The Flames could walk to a market like Houston and triple their franchise value overnight.

Also speaking to the first bold - in this case "walking into traffic" would be not building a new arena and experiencing the cascading consequences of that while the "picking up a quarter" would be feeling good about private enterprise not getting any money.

 

[muddywaters]

Some serious ignorance here regarding what public libraries provide this century.. when was the last time you people were actually in one? It isn't just books any more lol.. they have all kinds of public programs and services. They are certainly more valuable to society than professional hockey.

I have asked a lot of people if they have ever been to our new library and I have yet to knowingly meet someone who has … I’ve also asked a lot of people if they have ever been to the Saddledome and I can honestly say I’ve yet to knowingly meet someone who has not …. Just say’n … I’m not complaining but I helped pay for that library from my property tax …. Now I want something I and every single person I’ve met will use … and we pay to use it .

 

[Figgy44]

I have asked a lot of people if they have ever been to our new library and I have yet to knowingly meet someone who has … I’ve also asked a lot of people if they have ever been to the Saddledome and I can honestly say I’ve yet to knowingly meet someone who has not …. Just say’n … I’m not complaining but I helped pay for that library from my property tax …. Now I want something I and every single person I’ve met will use … and we pay to use it .

I've gone to the library a few times. It's pretty cool. Some of it feels like it should be a wing of the science centre than being a library. But without kids, I'm not sure that most people would willingly go to the central library for no reason.

IF that area is revitalized, it'd be an ultra cool place to be for sure. For now, I can see why some people refuse to go to the area. It's not awful, but the area is kinda disjointed vs the East village area.