C/RW Jonatan Berggren - Skelleftea, SWE JRs (2018, 33rd, DET)

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But actually watching him play, one could call him "dominant". Especially on the back half of this season. He is a play driver in the AHL. And just because a 28 year old journeyman and a 25 year old tweener in his 4th AHL season had slightly higher ppg than he did as a 21 year old rookie, it does nothing to diminish how good he has been for the Griffs. I just pray that Blash is gone so that there's less of a chance that Berggren has to cut his teeth on a 4th line with Adam Erne or some other plug next season. The Mike Babcock school of putting your skilled, creative player in the bottom of the line up (so that he can play realgood and be heavy out there while he works his way up to playing with actual talent) needs to find its way to the dumpster.

Come on. Dominant players have dominant stats. Or they play on winning teams.
How can you call him dominant when he didn't hit a point/game and had the worst +/- on a mediocre team?
I'm not saying he's bad.
I think he should be in Detroit right now.
But dominant?
 
But actually watching him play, one could call him "dominant". Especially on the back half of this season. He is a play driver in the AHL. And just because a 28 year old journeyman and a 25 year old tweener in his 4th AHL season had slightly higher ppg than he did as a 21 year old rookie, it does nothing to diminish how good he has been for the Griffs. I just pray that Blash is gone so that there's less of a chance that Berggren has to cut his teeth on a 4th line with Adam Erne or some other plug next season. The Mike Babcock school of putting your skilled, creative player in the bottom of the line up (so that he can play realgood and be heavy out there while he works his way up to playing with actual talent) needs to find its way to the dumpster.

You’re throwing around the label “21 year old rookie” as if he just graduated from juniors and moved on to the AHL. Injuries aside, he’s been a full timer in the SHL for the past 3 years. He deserves credit for being able to adapt to a new league as well as he has, but what he’s done isn’t nearly as impressive as if he were to have jumped from the SuperElit circuit in Sweden as a real “rookie” to professional hockey.
 
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Bertuzzi is absolutely not improving from a ~50pt player and to expect more is completely unreasonable.
Bertuzzi iant getting anywhere close to 70pts ever and I'm bookmarking this when he doesn't come close to it in the future.
And Bertuzzi isn't getting anywhere close to 70pts on any team ever and its idiotic to expect that.
Just wanted to say that Bertuzzi has 60 Points this year and would have likely gotten ~70 if not for missing some games.
 
You’re throwing around the label “21 year old rookie” as if he just graduated from juniors and moved on to the AHL. Injuries aside, he’s been a full timer in the SHL for the past 3 years. He deserves credit for being able to adapt to a new league as well as he has, but what he’s done isn’t nearly as impressive as if he were to have jumped from the SuperElit circuit in Sweden as a real “rookie” to professional hockey.
Very few europeans are "real rookies" in the AHL. Berggren had a ton of doubts surrounding him concerning how well he could translate his game to the smaller ice. Your comment would hold more water if the prevailing opinion was "he'll do fine, he's got all that SHL experience". I don't think it was.
 
Very few europeans are "real rookies" in the AHL. Berggren had a ton of doubts surrounding him concerning how well he could translate his game to the smaller ice. Your comment would hold more water if the prevailing opinion was "he'll do fine, he's got all that SHL experience". I don't think it was.
He had concerns about how his game would translate to North America. He went to a league that is, in general terms, a weaker league than where he was, but presented a different challenge for his development. His talent level was clearly beyond that of the AHL, but his style of play was a concern. So he took a step back in quality of competition to ensure that he could translate his game to a different game and to clean up some aspects of his game. There really never should have been any doubts of if he would be able to hack it in the AHL, but a question of how effective he would be.

Bringing his age and status as a rookie into the discussion attempts to create the appearance of Berggren being an inexperienced surprise and someone who should have been viewed as a lesser player than Hirose or Barber. And you know as well as I do is not only is that not true, it's a flat out mischaracterization of reality. Berggren is the highest caliber talent on the entire Griffins roster. He should be as dominant as any player on that roster when he's at his best, and that's what I would say he did down the stretch.
 
Just wanted to say that Bertuzzi has 60 Points this year and would have likely gotten ~70 if not for missing some games.
He’s certainly improved, but I still don’t think he’s ever going to reach 70 with his injury issues and a reduced role whenever we finally get good players. Plenty happy to see our players beat my expectations though.
 
You’re throwing around the label “21 year old rookie” as if he just graduated from juniors and moved on to the AHL. Injuries aside, he’s been a full timer in the SHL for the past 3 years. He deserves credit for being able to adapt to a new league as well as he has, but what he’s done isn’t nearly as impressive as if he were to have jumped from the SuperElit circuit in Sweden as a real “rookie” to professional hockey.

2 of those 3 seasons were barely seasons. Major injures cost him his D+1 and D+2 season. That he bounced back and became the player he is now is almost a miracle in itself. He could have gone the way of McIsaac.
 
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Finishing 18th in AHL scoring is not "dominant."
I think he should be in Detroit next season, but Berggren wasn't even going to lead this team in scoring until Hirose got called up and Barber at 1+ point/per game also has him beat.
Berggren is also a team worst -18, so that's something to look at too.
Maybe we have different definitions of dominant but youre really just splitting hairs. He had a really, really, really good season.. is that better?

He came to North America for the first time, had 1 assist his first 5 games then took off pretty good. He finished top 20 in league scoring and led his team in points. He was the 2nd highest scoring left winger in the entire AHL and set the Grand Rapids single season point record for rookies

If you looked at the list of top scorers in the NHL, you would sound like an idiot for claiming the guys in the top 20 scoring didnt have dominant seasons. Not outscoring Riley Barber who is one of the best players in the AHL, or having a bad plus minus is a really bad way to make a point, especially because the point is incorrect in the first place.
 
Maybe we have different definitions of dominant but youre really just splitting hairs. He had a really, really, really good season.. is that better?

He came to North America for the first time, had 1 assist his first 5 games then took off pretty good. He finished top 20 in league scoring and led his team in points. He was the 2nd highest scoring left winger in the entire AHL and set the Grand Rapids single season point record for rookies

If you looked at the list of top scorers in the NHL, you would sound like an idiot for claiming the guys in the top 20 scoring didnt have dominant seasons. Not outscoring Riley Barber who is one of the best players in the AHL, or having a bad plus minus is a really bad way to make a point, especially because the point is incorrect in the first place.
I'm not splitting hairs.
Dominant is a word with a definition. I believe in that definition.
Berggren doesn't match that definition.
The kid on the Ontario Reign has had a dominant season. TJ Tynan. Andrew Potuarlski. Those guys are dominating.
Mart Frk and Stefan Noeson. Those guys dominated. Jack Quin has dominated.

Riley Barber, Taro Hirose and Jonatan Berggren did not have "dominant" seasons.

Berggren is 54th in points/game out of anyone who's played 20 or more games. Get real.

Imagine thinking these three dominated the league ... having three "dominant players" - all minuses. All for a losing team.
Come on.
That's like the guy who thinks there are 12 generational players in the NHL right now.
 
I'm not splitting hairs.
Dominant is a word with a definition. I believe in that definition.
Berggren doesn't match that definition.
The kid on the Ontario Reign has had a dominant season. TJ Tynan. Andrew Potuarlski. Those guys are dominating.
Mart Frk and Stefan Noeson. Those guys dominated. Jack Quin has dominated.

Riley Barber, Taro Hirose and Jonatan Berggren did not have "dominant" seasons.

Berggren is 54th in points/game out of anyone who's played 20 or more games. Get real.

Imagine thinking these three dominated the league ... having three "dominant players" - all minuses. All for a losing team.
Come on.
That's like the guy who thinks there are 12 generational players in the NHL right now.
Why do u have to take things so literal. He's using a bit of artistic license it makes discussing anything in life more enjoyable.
 
Why do u have to take things so literal. He's using a bit of artistic license it makes discussing anything in life more enjoyable.

Artistic? Is that the word for hyperbolic?
Berggren was 54th in points/game. He literally didn't dominate.

If you want to argue that he did, show it.

Saying Berggren DOMINATED is a good way to set him up for failure.

It's not immediately clear that you should expect much more from Berggren next year than you should from Hirose or Barber.
You hope that if he makes the team, he's not given 4th line leftover minutes. At least I hope that he's given the chance to succeed.

Berggren has been good. But he's not been dominant. And you might want to temper expectations given the actual facts.
 
Artistic? Is that the word for hyperbolic?
Berggren was 54th in points/game. He literally didn't dominate.

If you want to argue that he did, show it.

Saying Berggren DOMINATED is a good way to set him up for failure.

It's not immediately clear that you should expect much more from Berggren next year than you should from Hirose or Barber.
You hope that if he makes the team, he's not given 4th line leftover minutes. At least I hope that he's given the chance to succeed.

Berggren has been good. But he's not been dominant. And you might want to temper expectations given the actual facts.

If you think that just because Berggren's PPG isn't better than Hirose or Barber (who both played LESS than him, by the way) then you're out to lunch. He's much more skilled than both. The kid was very clearly Grand Rapids best player and one of the few bright spots for them. If you take him off that squad they are probably dead last or damn near dead last in the AHL. They were a flat out bad team.

His plus/minus rating isn't bothersome either. Grand Rapids had atrocious backup goaltending this year. He is the leading scorer on the griffins, currently 3rd overall in rookie scoring and 20th in league scoring. I don't care that he had a lower PPG than some guy playing fewer games on better teams.

Watch. Him. Play.

The kid had a great year. Give him some credit.
 
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Artistic? Is that the word for hyperbolic?
Berggren was 54th in points/game. He literally didn't dominate.

If you want to argue that he did, show it.

Saying Berggren DOMINATED is a good way to set him up for failure.

It's not immediately clear that you should expect much more from Berggren next year than you should from Hirose or Barber.
You hope that if he makes the team, he's not given 4th line leftover minutes. At least I hope that he's given the chance to succeed.

Berggren has been good. But he's not been dominant. And you might want to temper expectations given the actual facts.
Nobody is arguing that berggren dominated, just that he's had a very good season. The original poster just used colourful language because it makes for more engaging content. Because you know he's a fan not some hockey cyborg scientist that has to be 100% factual driven.

Anybody with half a hockey brain can tell Berggren is going to do much better than Barber in the NHL. But bringing up Hirose is interesting. They're very similar players stylistically. Of course Taro is an inbetweener. Biggest thing that seperates the two is Berggren speed, which is a plus at the NHL level. And Jonatan is actually built with a strong lower body a good low center of gravity making him harder to knock off pucks. Allowing him to compete a lot more that Hirose ever could.

I dont think you've watched much of Berggren. I remember having convo with you last year about him and how much doubt you had about him being able to perform at the AHL level. He's shown at every step that he's an NHL calibre player but you seem to have keywholed as a soft perimeter player.
 
Nobody is arguing that berggren dominated, just that he's had a very good season. The original poster just used colourful language because it makes for more engaging content. Because you know he's a fan not some hockey cyborg scientist that has to be 100% factual driven.

Anybody with half a hockey brain can tell Berggren is going to do much better than Barber in the NHL. But bringing up Hirose is interesting. They're very similar players stylistically. Of course Taro is an inbetweener. Biggest thing that seperates the two is Berggren speed, which is a plus at the NHL level. And Jonatan is actually built with a strong lower body a good low center of gravity making him harder to knock off pucks. Allowing him to compete a lot more that Hirose ever could.

I dont think you've watched much of Berggren. I remember having convo with you last year about him and how much doubt you had about him being able to perform at the AHL level. He's shown at every step that he's an NHL calibre player but you seem to have keywholed as a soft perimeter player.
Man, what are you talking about?
That is exactly what was argued and what I disagreed with.

Newfy: Berggren dominated.
Me: Berggren has had a very good season - but he hasn't dominated.

And yet this argument continues.

I don't remember that conversation.
I did have doubts about him performing at the NHL level, and I still do.

Seems smaller and weaker on his skates than Raymond.
Seems like a perimeter guy.

Am I saying he won't make it? Hell no. He's got pretty good wheels, nice hands and agility.

But it's too early to say anything, one way or the other, in my book.

I do think he could probably match Zadina's production in the same role, I hope.
 
If you think that just because Berggren's PPG isn't better than Hirose or Barber (who both played LESS than him, by the way) then you're out to lunch. He's much more skilled than both. The kid was very clearly Grand Rapids best player and one of the few bright spots for them. If you take him off that squad they are probably dead last or damn near dead last in the AHL. They were a flat out bad team.

His plus/minus rating isn't bothersome either. Grand Rapids had atrocious backup goaltending this year. He is the leading scorer on the griffins, currently 3rd overall in rookie scoring and 20th in league scoring. I don't care that he had a lower PPG than some guy playing fewer games on better teams.

Watch. Him. Play.

The kid had a great year. Give him some credit.

54th in points per game.
He had a good year.
About what I expected.

He didn't dominate. That's the point.

You can't argue that. So you are building strawmen to argue against.
 
54th in points per game.
He had a good year.
About what I expected.

He didn't dominate. That's the point.

You can't argue that. So you are building strawmen to argue against.

Your argument is that he's 54th in PPG against people playing 20 games or more, yet I'm building a strawman?

Build it with guys that played two thirds of the season or more and then let's talk.
 
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"Dominate" is not a sufficiently well-defined descriptor to justify this level of semantics.

He led his team in points as a rookie, I don't think it's that outrageous to say he dominated. And I'm also not gonna knock the guy for playing a pretty full season when health and fitness have been one of his primary criticisms.
 
You’re throwing around the label “21 year old rookie” as if he just graduated from juniors and moved on to the AHL. Injuries aside, he’s been a full timer in the SHL for the past 3 years. He deserves credit for being able to adapt to a new league as well as he has, but what he’s done isn’t nearly as impressive as if he were to have jumped from the SuperElit circuit in Sweden as a real “rookie” to professional hockey.
Gee, except that he had two injury shortened SHL seasons where he played a combined 30 games. So it's not like he was even a seasoned SHL vet. He was almost written off prior to his breakout season and then afterwards, those same people said he would probably struggle to adapt to the NA game. Now that he repeated his success, it's apparently not enough because he wasn't "dominant" and he's a seasoned pro after playing 2 seasons worth of games over the past 4 years. Sure
 
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Gee, except that he had two injury shortened SHL seasons where he played a combined 30 games. So it's not like he was even a seasoned SHL vet. He was almost written off prior to his breakout season and then afterwards, those same people said he would probably struggle to adapt to the NA game. Now that he repeated his success, it's apparently not enough because he wasn't "dominant" and he's a seasoned pro after playing 2 seasons worth of games over the past 4 years. Sure

He’s played in essentially 100 games in the SHL regular season through his D+3 season. That’s 100 games in a league that for a player of his caliber is statistically proven to be a better translation to NHL success. But sure, let’s pretend like he’s never played hockey near this level before.

And you can read the rest of my comments to see what my full opinion on him is. It might help you realize that you’re arguing with someone who likes him as a prospect as much as you do
 
He’s played in essentially 100 games in the SHL regular season through his D+3 season. That’s 100 games in a league that for a player of his caliber is statistically proven to be a better translation to NHL success. But sure, let’s pretend like he’s never played hockey near this level before.

And you can read the rest of my comments to see what my full opinion on him is. It might help you realize that you’re arguing with someone who likes him as a prospect as much as you do
I know you do, and I also noticed that you basically called me out twice saying that I was being disingenuous with my description of his career to date. I just think it's silly to try to argue that "akshually hes a seasoned vet and it's not reaallly a rookie season" because he had a season and half's worth of SHL games prior to coming over. That's all. It's not really worth bickering over.
 
I'm not splitting hairs.
Dominant is a word with a definition. I believe in that definition.
Berggren doesn't match that definition.
The kid on the Ontario Reign has had a dominant season. TJ Tynan. Andrew Potuarlski. Those guys are dominating.
Mart Frk and Stefan Noeson. Those guys dominated. Jack Quin has dominated.

Riley Barber, Taro Hirose and Jonatan Berggren did not have "dominant" seasons.

Berggren is 54th in points/game out of anyone who's played 20 or more games. Get real.

Imagine thinking these three dominated the league ... having three "dominant players" - all minuses. All for a losing team.
Come on.
That's like the guy who thinks there are 12 generational players in the NHL right now.

Man, what are you talking about?
That is exactly what was argued and what I disagreed with.

Newfy: Berggren dominated.
Me: Berggren has had a very good season - but he hasn't dominated.

And yet this argument continues.

I don't remember that conversation.
I did have doubts about him performing at the NHL level, and I still do.

Seems smaller and weaker on his skates than Raymond.
Seems like a perimeter guy.

Am I saying he won't make it? Hell no. He's got pretty good wheels, nice hands and agility.

But it's too early to say anything, one way or the other, in my book.

I do think he could probably match Zadina's production in the same role, I hope.
LOL "Dominant is a word with a definition. I believe in that definition."

From Merriam Webster:

Definition of dominant

(Entry 1 of 2)
: very important, powerful, or successful

Berggren had a season where as a rookie he was the leading scorer on his team and the 2nd highest scoring left winger in the entire league, 18th overall in scoring. If you want to argue that his season wasnt successful or powerful/strong whatever go for it but like I said, youre splitting hairs because his season matches that definition to me and I'm sure plenty of others.

Unless you have some made up definition that you believe in in your head, youre splitting hairs and arguing semantics.
 
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LOL "Dominant is a word with a definition. I believe in that definition."

From Merriam Webster:

Definition of dominant

(Entry 1 of 2)
: very important, powerful, or successful

Berggren had a season where as a rookie he was the leading scorer on his team and the 2nd highest scoring left winger in the entire league, 18th overall in scoring. If you want to argue that his season wasnt successful or powerful/strong whatever go for it but like I said, youre splitting hairs because his season matches that definition to me and I'm sure plenty of others.

Unless you have some made up definition that you believe in in your head, youre splitting hairs and arguing semantics.
54th in points/game.
By your logic, two guys on every team in the AHL are "dominant."

How many times do you think Berggren "dominated" a game this year?
 
Your argument is that he's 54th in PPG against people playing 20 games or more, yet I'm building a strawman?

Build it with guys that played two thirds of the season or more and then let's talk.
Someone who's dominant should dominate games.
Berggren doesn't.
 

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