C/RW Jonatan Berggren - Skelleftea, SWE JRs (2018, 33rd, DET)

[Reddawg]

I can’t believe you guys are actually taking this argument to the dictionary like it’s 1987 and a tense game of Scrabble.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I can’t believe you guys are actually taking this argument to the dictionary like it’s 1987 and a tense game of Scrabble.

It’s one of the weirdest arguments I’ve ever seen on here. The guy had a very very good season as a rookie and was just short of PPG. The guy used the word “dominant” and it’s quite clear he just meant he was very very good. To go on for a whole page on the definition of dominant like the guy called him Gretzky is beyond ridiculous I’m amazed mods haven’t stopped it yet.

 

[slumpy43]

This whole story sounds like my wife telling me that she's been waiting several weeks for the kitchen reno to be completed while it's been 2 weeks. By pure definition, she is correct....Did Berggren have a good season? I'd say yes. Was it successful? An argument could be made in favor of it. Did he dominate? Was he just toying with the opposition on occasion? While he did finish the season strong, I'd hardly say so even if my viewing sample size is small

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I can’t believe you guys are actually taking this argument to the dictionary like it’s 1987 and a tense game of Scrabble.

Us wings fans are as catty as a dressing room of drag queens.

 

[Pavels Dog]

He’s played in essentially 100 games in the SHL regular season through his D+3 season. That’s 100 games in a league that for a player of his caliber is statistically proven to be a better translation to NHL success. But sure, let’s pretend like he’s never played hockey near this level before.

But isn't he mostly compared with other players who have followed a similar path? Berggren is absolutely not sitting on as much experience as you are trying to imply, he's got one SHL season as a true regular and even that was in a ~3rd line role. Not sure what his icetime was in GR but it may be his first full pro season as a top 6 player.

 

[Kingpin794]

I think it’s important to mention that he put up great numbers on a team that’s coached by someone who sets offensive strategy back 30 years. Just about every game under Ben Simon has been brutal to watch. God bless Berggren for making something out of nothing. Hopefully the wings address the coaching staff of both their teams so that they are brought into the 21st century.

We had similar stat knit picking after Seider’s first AHL season and people questioning his offensive upside/how good did he really do. Both guys were incredibly impressive bright spots on horrible teams. Looking at PPG or absolute placement in points/plus minus won’t tell you that all the time. Now he won’t be Seider good but I have no doubt he’ll be an NHL regular very soon.

 

[newfy]

Someone who's dominant should dominate games.
Berggren doesn't.

You dont even watch the Griffins lol

 

[nbwingsfan]

I think it’s important to mention that he put up great numbers on a team that’s coached by someone who sets offensive strategy back 30 years. Just about every game under Ben Simon has been brutal to watch. God bless Berggren for making something out of nothing. Hopefully the wings address the coaching staff of both their teams so that they are brought into the 21st century.

We had similar stat knit picking after Seider’s first AHL season and people questioning his offensive upside/how good did he really do. Both guys were incredibly impressive bright spots on horrible teams. Looking at PPG or absolute placement in points/plus minus won’t tell you that all the time. Now he won’t be Seider good but I have no doubt he’ll be an NHL regular very soon.

I’d be very happy if he’s a solid ~50pt guy in the NHL long term who greatly helps the Pp with his creativity. Could be a very good PP specialist (in a good way) who won’t hurt you 5v5

 

[Kingpin794]

I’d be very happy if he’s a solid ~50pt guy in the NHL long term who greatly helps the Pp with his creativity. Could be a very good PP specialist (in a good way) who won’t hurt you 5v5

My expectations aren’t quite as high as yours but close. I’d love to see him with Veleno and someone else to make a solid 3rd line with him consistently being a 40-45 point guy.

 

[Lavar Ball]

 

[Hockeyfrilla]

Nice start in NHL

 

[haulinbass]

My expectations aren’t quite as high as yours but close. I’d love to see him with Veleno and someone else to make a solid 3rd line with him consistently being a 40-45 point guy.

In what league is it at all normal a 3rd liner scores 40-45 points a year? That's 2nd line production.

 

[Kingpin794]

In what league is it at all normal a 3rd liner scores 40-45 points a year? That's 2nd line production.

40-45 pts isn’t crazy for contending teams 7th highest scoring forward.

 

[SoundAndFury]

40-45 pts isn’t crazy for contending teams 7th highest scoring forward.

Yes. Or 40-50 points is the usual 2nd line production without all the added caveats.

 

[haulinbass]

40-45 pts isn’t crazy for contending teams 7th highest scoring forward.

Just looked into it. Turns out your story does not check out.

 

[Kingpin794]

Just looked into it. Turns out your story does not check out.

There were the 6th highest scoring forward on good team from last year:

Florida-49

Toronto-51

Colorado-52

Tampa-43

Boston-44

So my point range would put him somewhere around 7th on those good teams.

But honestly you guys are getting hung up on semantics. I think he can top out as a 40-45 pt forward. There. Discuss that if you want.

 

[ThankGord]

There were the 6th highest scoring forward on good team from last year:

Florida-49

Toronto-51

Colorado-52

Tampa-43

Boston-44

So my point range would put him somewhere around 7th on those good teams.

But honestly you guys are getting hung up on semantics. I think he can top out as a 40-45 pt forward. There. Discuss that if you want.

I think he can exceed that a bit. He set the Griffins rookie scoring record with 64 points on a team that in recent history has played an incredibly boring dump and chase brand of hockey. Better teammates and systems should help.

 

[Kingpin794]

I think he can exceed that a bit. He set the Griffins rookie scoring record with 64 points on a team that in recent history has played an incredibly boring dump and chase brand of hockey. Better teammates and systems should help.

Yeah I can see that. There was definitely a skill gap between him and career AHLers. I think that gap shrinks quite a bit now but he certainly had the tools.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But honestly you guys are getting hung up on semantics. I think he can top out as a 40-45 pt forward. There. Discuss that if you want.

Easiest comparables are Arvidsson/Nyquist, both are 50+ Point players. Setting his ceiling lower than that seems strange given that he was drafted as a more highly touted prospect and is trending better than them.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Yeah I can see that. There was definitely a skill gap between him and career AHLers. I think that gap shrinks quite a bit now but he certainly had the tools.

I think he's got it in him to be somewhere between the 50 and 70 point range. It will depend more on role and icetime for sure. 17+ minutes a night, PP1 usage and he'll put up Tyler Johnson in Tampa numbers. 15 minutes and PP2 usage and he'll probably hit low 50s.

One thing that's been certain is he's much better defensively this season than last year, and Veleno has looked much better with Berggren on the line. Berggren really should have been up since day one this year.

 

[haulinbass]

There were the 6th highest scoring forward on good team from last year:

Florida-49

Toronto-51

Colorado-52

Tampa-43

Boston-44

So my point range would put him somewhere around 7th on those good teams.

But honestly you guys are getting hung up on semantics. I think he can top out as a 40-45 pt forward. There. Discuss that if you want.

Right, 2nd line players not 3rd line as you said. It went from 7th to 6th forward really fast. I sure would hope guys on the 2nd line break 40 points on a good team. 3rd line is a different story. The very few guys in the league who score above 40 who play on the 3rd line typically see time in the top six as well to hit those totals. Not many players break 40 points playing solely as a 3rd liner. Many 2nd liners are falling into the 40-45 point range let alone 3rd line players.

Of course I don't really care, 40-45 points I a fine projection, but just wanted to point out that 3rd line players don't really produce like that. It's a far fetched imagination to think your teams going to be so good that you'll have 3rd liners performing at that rate.

 

[Kaners PPGs]

Right, 2nd line players not 3rd line as you said. It went from 7th to 6th forward really fast. I sure would hope guys on the 2nd line break 40 points on a good team. 3rd line is a different story. The very few guys in the league who score above 40 who play on the 3rd line typically see time in the top six as well to hit those totals. Not many players break 40 points playing solely as a 3rd liner. Many 2nd liners are falling into the 40-45 point range let alone 3rd line players.

Of course I don't really care, 40-45 points I a fine projection, but just wanted to point out that 3rd line players don't really produce like that. It's a far fetched imagination to think your teams going to be so good that you'll have 3rd liners performing at that rate.

Wouldn't the 7th leading scorer be on the 3rd line? What Kingpin posted made perfect sense to me.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Wouldn't the 7th leading scorer be on the 3rd line? What Kingpin posted made perfect sense to me.

Maybe. The 7th leading scorer might be the 5th or 6th highest scoring forward. A team often has 1 or more defenseman that is top 6 in team scoring.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

There were the 6th highest scoring forward on good team from last year:

Florida-49

Toronto-51

Colorado-52

Tampa-43

Boston-44

So my point range would put him somewhere around 7th on those good teams.

But honestly you guys are getting hung up on semantics. I think he can top out as a 40-45 pt forward. There. Discuss that if you want.

Why are you posting 6th highest point totals on a small selection of teams instead of 7th highest point totals from all teams, which is what the discussion is about?

 

[haulinbass]

Wouldn't the 7th leading scorer be on the 3rd line? What Kingpin posted made perfect sense

7th leading scorer from last season.

Colorado - 33
Toronto - 35
Boston - 42
Dallas - 22
Calgary - 32
Edmonton - 36
Washington - 26
Islanders - 34
Vancouver - 26
Montreal - 29
Winnipeg - 35
Chicago - 26
Columbus - 32
Anaheim - 29
Buffalo - 27
Nashville - 28
Detroit - 27
LA - 28
Pittsburgh - 33
Vegas - 35
Arizona - 21
New Jersey - 35

I will admit, there are a few guys who are 7th in scoring on their team who managed above 40 points. However, in reality I think it's reasonable to conclude 40+ points is generally a 2nd line player in this league. It has to be considered that most of these players had top 6 roles at some point during the season. Maybe if scoring goes up more that will change in the future. I don't think anyone is going to expect any player who is legitimately playing on a 3rd line to produce 40+ points.