C Leo Carlsson (2023, 2nd, ANA)

[Crazy8oooo]

If you reframe your thinking, then it might be easier to accept. If you're fine with Orebro's 52-game schedule, then see it as SHL + 10% games, but on NA ice with NA game play. No one would bat an eye if Carlsson played only 52 games or fewer in the SHL this season.

It’s the sitting out of games that’s the issue, in my mind. Sure, Orebro plays a smaller schedule, but he’d be leading the team, night in and night out rather than sitting as a spectator, watching his teammates play. If you’re ok with the pathway they’re taking, then cool. I’m not here to change your mind, but rather voice my opinion. I do accept it; voicing an opinion against it doesn’t change that.

 

[Peasy]

Surely he plays tonight...

Also, do Duck fans not really care about how this might effect other young roster players having to constantly adapt to who theyre playing with and having really no consistency? Youre going to have Zegras flipping between wing and C all season (or half season). Hes clearly had a rough start, and I cant imagine this situation helps him in any way possible. Like it literally influences the entire make up of the current roster having such an important piece come in and out. It influences lines at even strength, and then of course something like the PP.

 

[Waterbuf]

Surely he plays tonight...

Also, do Duck fans not really care about how this might effect other young roster players having to constantly adapt to who theyre playing with and having really no consistency? Youre going to have Zegras flipping between wing and C all season (or half season). Hes clearly had a rough start, and I cant imagine this situation helps him in any way possible. Like it literally influences the entire make up of the current roster having such an important piece come in and out. It influences lines at even strength, and then of course something like the PP.

Its ridiculous. It might have made sense up until the point they realized he's their 1C.

 

[Gliff]

Surely he plays tonight...

Also, do Duck fans not really care about how this might effect other young roster players having to constantly adapt to who theyre playing with and having really no consistency? Youre going to have Zegras flipping between wing and C all season (or half season). Hes clearly had a rough start, and I cant imagine this situation helps him in any way possible. Like it literally influences the entire make up of the current roster having such an important piece come in and out. It influences lines at even strength, and then of course something like the PP.

Zegras has been great outside of the last game. Stop watching the boxscores and watch the game before making statements like this...

 

[seafoam]

I bought tickets to that game mainly to see Carlsson live. Disappointed is an understatement to learn he was perfectly healthy sitting in the pressbox drinking an Ensure.

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Oddest thing is that no one's complaining about Luneau having only played two games this season and he's been healthy all the while, unlike Carlsson, who was put on season opening IR (SOIR).

Look, I get it, a lot of you agree with the way it’s being handled. That’s cool. I have no issues with people having their own opinions. I just think it’s silly that the Ducks are doing it this way when he could be competing against Bedard and Fantilli for the Calder and likely hold his own. To each, their own.

But come on, we both know that Luneau is not on the same level as Carlsson and is not yet ready for full time NHL. Why would anyone complain about him being sat when it’s pretty obvious that the plan is to send him down at some point? Carlsson is on a completely different level at this point and has shown he can compete against NHL players at a high level.

 

[Peasy]

Zegras has been great outside of the last game. Stop watching the boxscores and watch the game before making statements like this...

I have watched some. But way to just completely ignore everything else in my post and just hyper focus on that lol. You think yo-yoing him from Wing to C all year is good? You think him consistently playing with different players is good? You think constantly having a different PP1 is good? Hes already started this season behind by missing the majority of training camp, I can't see how this flip flopping and change helps him in any way possible.

 

[Gliff]

I have watched some. But way to just completely ignore everything else in my post and just hyper focus on that lol. You think yo-yoing him from Wing to C all year is good? You think him consistently playing with different players is good? You think constantly having a different PP1 is good? Hes already started this season behind by missing the majority of training camp, I can't see how this flip flopping and change helps him in any way possible.

Hard to take you seriously when youre clearly not watching the games. He has only played 2 games with Carlsson, and the other games (with the exception of last game) he has been fine.

Zegras has played wing and center his whole career in the NHL. Including taking faceoffs with Carlsson on his line at times. New linemates isn't anything new. Last year he had 7 guys that were regular linemates throughout the season.

I'm just getting sick of the grasping at straws trying to make this a drama.

First people said they were lying and he was hurt.
Then people said Carlsson would be pissed and hold it against them.
Then it came out that Carlsson and his agent were part of the decision.
Then people said it is direspectful to the other rookies that he is being handled differently.
Now it is harmful to Zegras.

What's next?

 

[FiveTacos]

It’s the sitting out of games that’s the issue, in my mind. Sure, Orebro plays a smaller schedule, but he’d be leading the team, night in and night out rather than sitting as a spectator, watching his teammates play. If you’re ok with the pathway they’re taking, then cool. I’m not here to change your mind, but rather voice my opinion. I do accept it; voicing an opinion against it doesn’t change that.

Well I think the entire reasoning for this plan is just an attempt to accomplish what you're saying ... when he plays he will be getting 1C linemates and ice time, even if it means only 60 or so games this year. As opposed to playing him every night, but perhaps having him hit a rookie wall and having to drop him down the lineup and play with lesser players and get less ice time. I'm undecided if it's the right call or not, but the reasoning isn't way out there, it kind of makes some sense actually.

Too often we see young talented guys make a team, and playing reasonably well but having tough stretches, then the fans complain that what's the point in having kept a guy up just to play him 3rd line or 3rd pairing minutes? I think they'd like to avoid that, and I think that's entirely fair. Hey if he starts truly tearing it up it's not as if they can't change plans, right?

Surely he plays tonight...

Youre going to have Zegras flipping between wing and C all season (or half season). Hes clearly had a rough start, and I cant imagine this situation helps him in any way possible.

He had a mediocre game last game, but despite the points I think he's actually looked really good. Improved in the defensive zone, winning more puck battles, and generating chances. I think he's been good at both positions for the most part. It probably doesn't hurt that this year they actually have a defense that can transition the puck to the forwards instead of just turn it right back over, but in scanning the game threads it seems most Duck fans are pretty pleased at Zegras' progress thus far.

Terry OTOH looks like a puck hog right now. If anyone deserved a benching the other night it was him.

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Hard to take you seriously when youre clearly not watching the games. He has only played 2 games with Carlsson, and the other games (with the exception of last game) he has been fine.

Zegras has played wing and center his whole career in the NHL. Including taking faceoffs with Carlsson on his line at times. New linemates isn't anything new. Last year he had 7 guys that were regular linemates throughout the season.

I'm just getting sick of the grasping at straws trying to make this a drama.

First people said they were lying and he was hurt.
Then people said Carlsson would be pissed and hold it against them.
Then it came out that Carlsson and his agent were part of the decision.
Then people said it is direspectful to the other rookies that he is being handled differently.
Now it is harmful to Zegras.

What's next?

The thing is, people are free to make their own observations and form their own opinions You’re getting upset at someone because they think Carlsson could hold some resentment over this, or that it could harm the development of him or other players given the lack of consistency in line mates or position. Your opinion isn’t any more valid than the next person’s. Why is it such an issue with you when some of what you’re listing is all based on opinion and not facts?

 

[Peasy]

Comparing this to the Stamkos situation also seems like a stretch to me. Stamkos played 79 games that year. Hes was constantly in the line up. They took him out for a 3 game stretch in the middle of the year and thats it. Yes, he started off in a lesser role but was given more opportunity as the season went on. He wasnt constantly being inserted and taken out of the top line.

11:39
14:23
13:28
11:21
14:56
18:47
22:33

Those were his monthly averages. He went on to score 95 points and 51 goals the following year.

I just find the constant inserting and taking him out of such an important position strange, and that its possible to impact the team and other individual players by this happening. Its like theyre trying to fast track him to 1C but at the same time dont want to rush it.

I'll leave it at that, and hope I can see him play tonight as its an east coast start.

 

[Gliff]

The thing is, people are free to make their own observations and form their own opinions You’re getting upset at someone because they think Carlsson could hold some resentment over this, or that it could harm the development of him or other players given the lack of consistency in line mates or position. Your opinion isn’t any more valid than the next person’s. Why is it such an issue with you when some of what you’re listing is all based on opinion and not facts?

Thats the thing, I'm not making any personal statements either way about if this is better or not. I'm saying I trust the GM/staff and the player/agent to have a better idea of what is better for him then myself or anyone else on HF.

I'm not getting upset lol. I'm calling people out for jumping to conclusions based on nothing, and then jumping to the next conclusion when their previous assumption was proven wrong.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I have never agreed with sitting a healthy 18-year old. At that age, they need to play. If they aren't confident he can handle nearly every game in the NHL he shouldn't be up, and if they are confident he can play every day then he should be playing.

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Thats the thing, I'm not making any personal statements either way about if this is better or not. I'm saying I trust the GM/staff and the player/agent to have a better idea of what is better for him then myself or anyone else on HF.

I'm not getting upset lol. I'm calling people out for jumping to conclusions based on nothing, and then jumping to the next conclusion when their previous assumption was proven wrong.

Perhaps I misunderstood your comment, “I'm just getting sick of the grasping at straws trying to make this a drama.”

I can understand you trusting the higher ups regarding the situation, but some of what you’re objecting to is really just people, including myself, sharing their thoughts on potential issues that “could” arise from this method of easing him in. I’m a Ducks fan just like you (and others) and have been since they’ve entered the league. I shouldn’t have to argue my own viewpoints with fellow Ducks fans, which is what some of this seems to have turned into. I get it if false facts are being presented but I haven’t seen much of that in this thread. It’s mostly just people voicing potential concerns.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Insanity. The only scheduled rest Carlsson should be engaging in is resting his hog after too many frolicks with the real milfs of the OC. What are they teaching him in this organization? The only load mnanagement should be...well you get the idea.

There may have been someone at that Ducks game who will never go to another game this season. They missed their only chance to watch Leo while Pat Verbeek sleeps peacefully...it's not right.

 

[FiveTacos]

I just find the constant inserting and taking him out of such an important position strange, and that its possible to impact the team and other individual players by this happening.

Of course it's strange, just like the first team to limit innings and pitches for a hot young MLB prospect was looked at as crazy coddling. Throwing the ball all over the place and letting your QB run around used to be looked at as looney gimmick football. Chucking up a ton of 3 pointers in the NBA used to be considered losing basketball. Stuff changes.

Teams will try things, some will stick and some won't. Remains to be seen how Carlson's handling works out, but you really see zero logic behind it? I'm not convinced, but I can also see a legit argument for gradually increasing a teenager's workload and exclusively playing him in a top line role instead of keeping him in the lineup somewhere just for the sake of it. Quality of minutes being more valuable than sheer number of games played sounds intriguing to me, I for one am keeping an open mind about it.

 

[Gliff]

Perhaps I misunderstood your comment, “I'm just getting sick of the grasping at straws trying to make this a drama.”

I can understand you trusting the higher ups regarding the situation, but some of what you’re objecting to is really just people, including myself, sharing their thoughts on potential issues that “could” arise from this method of easing him in. I’m a Ducks fan just like you (and others) and have been since they’ve entered the league. I shouldn’t have to argue my own viewpoints with fellow Ducks fans, which is what some of this seems to have turned into. I get it if false facts are being presented but I haven’t seen much of that in this thread. It’s mostly just people voicing potential concerns.

Ya I have no problem with people saying they disagree. A poster did it right above this.
And between you and me, I would rather he keep playing while he was playing so well and atleast waited until he slowed down to manage his time.
I am just annoyed at people grasping at straws making this a bigger deal then it is.

It is a development plan. If people disagree then thats fine. But if he was sent back to the SHL noone would be complaining about the amount of games he would be playing, even though it would be less then what he will be playing in the NHL even with sitting a ton.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Look, I get it, a lot of you agree with the way it’s being handled. That’s cool. I have no issues with people having their own opinions. I just think it’s silly that the Ducks are doing it this way when he could be competing against Bedard and Fantilli for the Calder and likely hold his own. To each, their own.

But come on, we both know that Luneau is not on the same level as Carlsson and is not yet ready for full time NHL. Why would anyone complain about him being sat when it’s pretty obvious that the plan is to send him down at some point? Carlsson is on a completely different level at this point and has shown he can compete against NHL players at a high level.

I didn't say I agreed with the way Carlsson is being handled. I said I accepted it b/c that's all we can do. During the summer, I said Carlsson should stay with Orebro for his D+1 season b/c he's finally going to play center and at 1C with Orebro. Orebro knows how to develop Carlsson since they've had him since age 15 and helped him be the #2 pick overall.

Verbeek loved what he saw out of Carlsson at the rookie tourney and pre-season to want to keep Carlsson on NHL ice, but also knows he's not ready physically. This is Verbeek's way of controlling his rebuild to start faster by acclimating Carlsson in the NHL this year. It takes the guess work out if Verbeek left him in Orebro for a year and then see what he has next season in the NHL. That's valuable to Verbeek b/c it moves up the rebuild time significantly with a potential franchise 1C with, technically, a season of NHL experience.

When we drafted Carlsson, it was because of what a player he would be in the future... or at least that was one of my factors why I wanted him over Fantilli. Why does Carlsson need to compete against Bedard or Fantilli this year? You want Carlsson to compete against Bedard and Fantilli when they're all developing at different rates and development point in their hockey career.

As for Luneau, clearly you missed the point that Luneau is missing games instead of tearing up the QMJHL. Gatineau has played 14 games already. If you're concerned about development, then Luneau is in the same boat as Carlsson. And we really don't know what the situation is with Luneau, which is the scary part.

Yet, your lack of concern for Luneau and your admitted thirst for the Calder competition between the first three picks of the 2023 draft just shows you aren't concerned about development, but rather what can make you happy. That is a legit concern from your perspective, though, there is the rest of the Ducks team to also cheer about. You could be happy that Mintyukov might be the one who could challenge Bedard and Fantilli for the Calder, but you're just too fixated on Carlsson to make you happy.

Anahiem is still in a rebuild era, which makes this season another development year. Verbeek is treating the NHL as his developmental league this year with five rookies to start the season. It's unconventional, but it's also a development season. So can't really complain. Although, it does suck for head coach Cronin to be rotating 1C's for two months b/c it messes with the line consistencies to accommodate Carlsson.

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Of course it's strange, just like the first team to limit innings and pitches for a hot young MLB prospect was looked at as crazy coddling. Throwing the ball all over the place and letting your QB run around used to be looked at as looney gimmick football. Chucking up a ton of 3 pointers in the NBA used to be considered losing basketball. Stuff changes.

Teams will try things, some will stick and some won't. Remains to be seen how Carlson's handling works out, but you really see zero logic behind it? I'm not convinced, but I can also see a legit argument for gradually increasing a teenager's workload and exclusively playing him in a top line role instead of keeping him in the lineup somewhere just for the sake of it. Quality of minutes being more valuable than sheer number of games played sounds intriguing to me, I for one am keeping an open mind about it.

Herein lies the issue…

If Carlsson becomes a star, is that due to how he’s being coddled or is it because he’s projected to be one already and simply met his potential? If he fails, is it because of the coddling or that he just didn’t live up to projections?

There will be no sure answer to this so waiting to see, really doesn’t give us the conclusion we’re looking for.

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Ya I have no problem with people saying they disagree. A poster did it right above this.
And between you and me, I would rather he keep playing while he was playing so well and atleast waited until he slowed down to manage his time.
I am just annoyed at people grasping at straws making this a bigger deal then it is.

It is a development plan. If people disagree then thats fine. But if he was sent back to the SHL noone would be complaining about the amount of games he would be playing, even though it would be less then what he will be playing in the NHL even with sitting a ton.

At least we agree on wanting to see him play as long as he’s playing well. Some common ground.

As for the amount of games played, that isn’t the point, without context. It’s about playing when he’s capable of playing/no signs of fatigue. I seriously doubt he’d be getting sat in the press box in Orebro. He’d be getting top minutes as the leader of his team. I think the only complaint if he were sent back would be fans preferring that he be kept in the NHL.

 

[Peasy]

Of course it's strange, just like the first team to limit innings and pitches for a hot young MLB prospect was looked at as crazy coddling. Throwing the ball all over the place and letting your QB run around used to be looked at as looney gimmick football. Chucking up a ton of 3 pointers in the NBA used to be considered losing basketball. Stuff changes.

Teams will try things, some will stick and some won't. Remains to be seen how Carlson's handling works out, but you really see zero logic behind it? I'm not convinced, but I can also see a legit argument for gradually increasing a teenager's workload and exclusively playing him in a top line role instead of keeping him in the lineup somewhere just for the sake of it. Quality of minutes being more valuable than sheer number of games played sounds intriguing to me, I for one am keeping an open mind about it.

I understand their logic, I just don't think it is needed and it seems like they're trying to big brain this because some lesser top draft picks sucked out of the gate (I think Carlsson is much better right now than any of those other failed experiments were, and is better equipped to transition to the NHL). I'm also simply just bringing up points about how it could impact the rest of the team too.

Pulling a pitcher early in a game doesnt have the same effect of pulling your 1c in and out of the line up constantly and forever having your lines in a blender.

For special talents (the elite of the elite), I personally believe it is very hard to f*** up their potential. If a player is really good, they'll likely hit their potential on their own merit and drive. I dont think sitting him 30 games will somehow catapult him to another level than if he just played the entire season in a lesser role. Most important thing for me is having them play so they can get used to the pace, timing, physicality and grind of the NHL.

 

[Crazy8oooo]

I didn't say I agreed with the way Carlsson is being handled. I said I accepted it b/c that's all we can do. During the summer, I said Carlsson should stay with Orebro for his D+1 season b/c he's finally going to play center and at 1C with Orebro. Orebro knows how to develop Carlsson since they've had him since age 15 and helped him be the #2 pick overall.

Verbeek loved what he saw out of Carlsson at the rookie tourney and pre-season to want to keep Carlsson on NHL ice, but also knows he's not ready physically. This is Verbeek's way of controlling his rebuild to start faster by acclimating Carlsson in the NHL this year. It takes the guess work out if Verbeek left him in Orebro for a year and then see what he has next season in the NHL. That's valuable to Verbeek b/c it moves up the rebuild time significantly with a potential franchise 1C with, technically, a season of NHL experience.

When we drafted Carlsson, it was because of what a player he would be in the future... or at least that was one of my factors why I wanted him over Fantilli. Why does Carlsson need to compete against Bedard or Fantilli this year? You want Carlsson to compete against Bedard and Fantilli when they're all developing at different rates and development point in their hockey career.

As for Luneau, clearly you missed the point that Luneau is missing games instead of tearing up the QMJHL. Gatineau has played 14 games already. If you're concerned about development, then Luneau is in the same boat as Carlsson. And we really don't know what the situation is with Luneau, which is the scary part.

Yet, your lack of concern for Luneau and your admitted thirst for the Calder competition between the first three picks of the 2023 draft just shows you aren't concerned about development, but rather what can make you happy. That is a legit concern from your perspective, though, there is the rest of the Ducks team to also cheer about. You could be happy that Mintyukov might be the one who could challenge Bedard and Fantilli for the Calder, but you're just too fixated on Carlsson to make you happy.

Anahiem is still in a rebuild era, which makes this season another development year. Verbeek is treating the NHL as his developmental league this year with five rookies to start the season. It's unconventional, but it's also a development season. So can't really complain. Although, it does suck for head coach Cronin to be rotating 1C's for two months b/c it messes with the line consistencies to accommodate Carlsson.

I was following your post just fine until the bolded. At this point, there’s no further need to engage with you since you’re attempting to speak for me. This will be my last post engaging in this with you.

Carlsson competing for a Calder, does not benefit me one way or another. Sure, it’s fun to watch players compete for a trophy, but personally I don’t gain anything from it and couldn’t care less whether he actually wins it or not. My intent on mentioning it has everything to do with Carlsson being deprived of the opportunity to compete for it, as the other top rookies get the privilege of doing.

Secondly, I’ve not voiced my view on Luneau and his development, at all, so that’s your own misguided thinking if that’s the way you conclude someone’s thought process.

Your arrogance in telling someone how they think or feel is unbecoming. Do better…

 

[Gliff]

At least we agree on wanting to see him play as long as he’s playing well. Some common ground.

As for the amount of games played, that isn’t the point, without context. It’s about playing when he’s capable of playing/no signs of fatigue. I seriously doubt he’d be getting sat in the press box in Orebro. He’d be getting top minutes as the leader of his team. I think the only complaint if he were sent back would be fans preferring that he be kept in the NHL.

Orebro plays 9 games a month. The Ducks play 14. Verbeek is basically making it so Leo plays the SHL schedule against NHL competition.

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Orebro plays 9 games a month. The Ducks play 14. Verbeek is basically making it so Leo plays the SHL schedule against NHL competition.

I understand that, completely. It’s not the game #s. It’s the sitting out multiple games that’s a potential issue in my mind. But I digress, as we clearly won’t see eye to eye on it.

 

[Bleak]

I understand that, completely. It’s not the game #s. It’s the sitting out multiple games that’s a potential issue in my mind. But I digress, as we clearly won’t see eye to eye on it.

Between all the travel from his home to the US, training camps, the long summer of conditioning, and the preseaon.... I think the few games in a row is much needed. Dude has some millage lately. I kinda like the idea, but at the same time I do want our dog to run