C Connor Bedard - Regina Pats, WHL (2023 Draft) Part 5

[prongertheman9]

Stats are a disqualifier, not a qualifier.

Just because a player produces at an elite level, doesn't mean he's an elite prospect. Jordan Dumais is a great example.

But if a player doesn't produce at a generational level, he's very unlikely to be a generational player.

Surely you understand this.

So then we can agree that Bedard's stats this year don't disqualify him from being generational? Because everything he has done up to this point screams that he is generational.

This also answers your own question of why Kane's draft year ppg being slightly higher than Bedard's doesn't automatically make him a generational prospect.

I take zero issue with your stance of him not being generational based on your concerns about different elements of his game not translating to the NHL level. I am agreeance that it is harder to see his path to getting to that level vs McDavid and Crosby's - although there is nothing up to this point to make me think he can't figure it out at the NHL level too. The issue I have is that you continually bring up his stats as a disqualifier, when his statistical body of work and accomplishments since he was 15 years old are right there with the Crosby/McDavid's.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Do good teams or bad teams tend to score more goals?

Good teams score more. That doesn't mean that Bedard's scoring is necessarily going to be heavily impacted. Howe, Suzdalev, and Svozil are all great players in their own right.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

So then we can agree that Bedard's stats this year don't disqualify him from being generational? Because everything he has done up to this point screams that he is generational.

This also answers your own question of why Kane's draft year ppg being slightly higher than Bedard's doesn't automatically make him a generational prospect.

I take zero issue with your stance of him not being generational based on your concerns about different elements of his game not translating to the NHL level. I am agreeance that it is harder to see his path to getting to that level vs McDavid and Crosby's - although there is nothing up to this point to make me think he can't figure it out at the NHL level too. The issue I have is that you continually bring up his stats as a disqualifier, when his statistical body of work and accomplishments since he was 15 years old are right there with the Crosby/McDavid's.

Before the WJCs, his 2.29 ppg was still far below McDavid and Crosby's, to the point that it was disqualifying. Even after a 6 point game, he's still below those guys, but he's getting closer.

Before the season I predicted he'd score something like 70+ goals and 140+ points if he played at least 60 games, so it's not like I'm a hater. If he breaks 150 I don't think his production continues to be a disqualifying factor.

 

[Love]

Good teams score more. That doesn't mean that Bedard's scoring is necessarily going to be heavily impacted. Howe, Suzdalev, and Svozil are all great players in their own right.

This is so disingenuous and you know it. It doesn’t do you any favours to play dumb.

Would I score more points playing on a line with Sidney Crosby or Dale Weise? Or would you say “Playing with Crosby doesn’t necessarily mean your scoring will be heavily impacted. Weise is a good player in his own right.” It’s totally absurd and you know it.

The problem people have with you isn’t even your opinions. I for one see it as unlikely Bedard reaches Crosby or McDavid levels in the NHL, so we agree there. It’s how inconsistent you are and the lengths you’ll go to defending your opinions despite evidence that clearly contradicts your previous posts. Then, when presented with facts, will say “I’ll defer to daver” and link some random posters opinion that contains zero factual evidence.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

This is so disingenuous and you know it. It doesn’t do you any favours to play dumb.

Would I score more points playing on a line with Sidney Crosby or Dale Weise? Or would you say “Playing with Crosby doesn’t necessarily mean your scoring will be heavily impacted. Weise is a good player in his own right.” It’s totally absurd and you know it.

The problem people have with you isn’t even your opinions. I for one see it as unlikely Bedard reaches Crosby or McDavid levels in the NHL, so we agree there. It’s how inconsistent you are and the lengths you’ll go to defending your opinions despite evidence that clearly contradicts your previous posts. Then, when presented with facts, will say “I’ll defer to daver” and link some random posters opinion that contains zero factual evidence.

This is pretty disingenuous. Playing on a bad team doesn't mean you don't get to play with any good players.

Do you agree that Howe, Suzdalev, and Svozil are good players?

Regina's problem is depth. They're actually pretty top heavy. It's kinda like the Oilers. Yeah, they aren't a dominant team, but McDavid has plenty of offensive talent to play with, especially on the PP.

The problem people have with my opinions is that they confuse nuance for inconsistency.

 

[Love]

This is pretty disingenuous. Playing on a bad team doesn't mean you don't get to play with any good players.

Do you agree that Howe, Suzdalev, and Svozil are good players?

Regina's problem is depth. They're actually pretty top heavy. It's kinda like the Oilers. Yeah, they aren't a dominant team, but McDavid has plenty of offensive talent to play with, especially on the PP.

The problem people have with my opinions is that they don't confuse nuance for inconsistency.

Of course they’re good players. Did you miss my post above comparing the PPG of the knights vs the pats? Of course you did, it was a point clearly against your narrative. You’re literally looking at two players, one scores 2.2 PPG and the other 1.2 PPG, and saying “They’re both good players!!” This is the same PPG difference as comparing Leon Draisaitl and Conor Garland then saying “Do you not agree that Conor Garland is a good player??”

But again this is all a waste of time so I won’t respond anymore. I have no interest in arguing with a brick wall who’s more concerned with digging his heels in than having an actual conversation.

 

[cupface52]

Before the WJCs, his 2.29 ppg was still far below McDavid and Crosby's, to the point that it was disqualifying. Even after a 6 point game, he's still below those guys, but he's getting closer.

Before the season I predicted he'd score something like 70+ goals and 140+ points if he played at least 60 games, so it's not like I'm a hater. If he breaks 150 I don't think his production continues to be a disqualifying factor.

It's important to look at his improvement year over year. Take Tavares, who was seen as a generational prospect at 15. Made almost no improvements from his 16 year old season. Wright, barely any improvement from his 15 to 17 year old seasons, and he's struggling now.

Bedard has been making huge strides year over year. I realize he has a better ppg at 15 than 16, but he only played 15 games due to covid.


His IQ and playmaking is on par with Crosby & McDavid, if not surpassing them. McDavid has his skating, Crosby has his strength along the boards, Bedard has his shot. Take Matthews, if he possessed an (slightly above?) average NHL shot, like Crosby and McDavid, does he even pace 70 points a year? It's his shot that gives him opportunities that other players don't get, in the same way Crosby's board work and McDavid's skating.

 

[prongertheman9]

Before the WJCs, his 2.29 ppg was still far below McDavid and Crosby's, to the point that it was disqualifying. Even after a 6 point game, he's still below those guys, but he's getting closer.

Before the season I predicted he'd score something like 70+ goals and 140+ points if he played at least 60 games, so it's not like I'm a hater. If he breaks 150 I don't think his production continues to be a disqualifying factor.

Your last comment trying to disqualify Bedard based on production was yesterday though, when his ppg was 2.41. So 150 points in 60 games (2.5 ppg) would be enough to stop using points in your argument? Your are more than happy to cherry pick Crosby and McDavid's stats to make your argument but you dismiss any notion that Bedard's circumstances are holding his numbers back by comparison.

Bedard's linemates are Howe and Valis.
With Bedard in the lineup this year: Howe 1.5 ppg, Valis 1.16 ppg
Without Bedard: Howe 0.73 ppg, Valis 0.27 ppg

When McDavid was out of the lineup in his draft year for WJC and injury Strome had a 1.45 ppg and Debrincat had 1.3 ppg.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Good teams score more. That doesn't mean that Bedard's scoring is necessarily going to be heavily impacted. Howe, Suzdalev, and Svozil are all great players in their own right.

As someone who has watched a lot of Junior hockey having a couple of "good" players doesn't make you a good team. Howe is an undrafted player. Both Szdalev and Svozil are mid round picks

Compare that to Mcdavids last year team

Strome was the 3rd overall pick
Debrincat 2nd round pick
Taylor Raddish was young but was a 2nd round pick
Remi Ellie 2nd round pick
Nick Baptiste 3rd round pick
Travis Dermot 3rd round pick
Kyle Petit 6th round pick
Jake Marchment 6th round pick
Mason Marchment non drafted but signed now an NHLer
Kurtis MacDermid non drafted but signed now an NHLer

One team was I think the top ranked team in the CHL and had 50 wins. One team may make the playoffs. One team built a team around their superstar the other did not.

I am not saying McDavid would not have had the type of final year if he was on the Pats. I think he would have. What I am saying is I think at this point at their age both guys are clearly incredible talents that could easily be considered Generational.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Howe, Suzdalev and Svozil are good players. Who aren't even in the conversation with the guys Kane and Mcdavid had with them. Howe might be later, he's 17 and not even draft eligible yet. Suzdalev took the first 1/4 of season just adjusting to a new league. Svozil is a good defenceman.

 

[Fraser28]

Can we stop engaging with WhiskeyYerTheDevils? This thread would be much more pleasant without the frustrating generational debates with him that never seem to end.

 

[Dust]

It's important to look at his improvement year over year. Take Tavares, who was seen as a generational prospect at 15. Made almost no improvements from his 16 year old season. Wright, barely any improvement from his 15 to 17 year old seasons, and he's struggling now.

Bedard has been making huge strides year over year. I realize he has a better ppg at 15 than 16, but he only played 15 games due to covid.


His IQ and playmaking is on par with Crosby & McDavid, if not surpassing them. McDavid has his skating, Crosby has his strength along the boards, Bedard has his shot. Take Matthews, if he possessed an (slightly above?) average NHL shot, like Crosby and McDavid, does he even pace 70 points a year? It's his shot that gives him opportunities that other players don't get, in the same way Crosby's board work and McDavid's skating.

His 15 year old season was also played in a bubble with limited to no import players, so that definitely impacted the level of competition at least a little bit as well. Would explain the slight dip, along with it being a smaller sample size as you mentioned.

 

[Postulates]

Simple clearly the whl is just weaker than ever

 

[Mercedes Benn]

Simple clearly the whl is just weaker than ever

I dont think so.

 

[Kearns]

Simple clearly the whl is just weaker than ever

Cool take. Support with data, because, just no.

 

[Fraser28]

Cool take. Support with data, because, just no.

I think he was being sarcastic. At least, I hope so. If anything, I think this might be the best it has ever been.

 

[majormajor]

I like that Bedard didn't get traded. Is it likely that he didn't want to be? I'm sure his views were considered.

I prefer players like that. If you think you are that good then go for it with the teammates you have. Don't ask for an easier club to win with.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

I like that Bedard didn't get traded. Is it likely that he didn't want to be? I'm sure his views were considered.

I prefer players like that. If you think you are that good then go for it with the teammates you have. Don't ask for an easier club to win with.

He wasn’t traded because he packs the building every night and on the off chance he doesn’t make the NHL next year he generates Regina even more money.

 

[jetsv2]

Can we stop engaging with WhiskeyYerTheDevils? This thread would be much more pleasant without the frustrating generational debates with him that never seem to end.

When he is proven to be completely wrong next year I really hope he deletes his account in shame but he probably won't. He is clueless or completely blinded by his love of Jack Hughes, maybe both.

 

[Kibe]

I like that Bedard didn't get traded. Is it likely that he didn't want to be? I'm sure his views were considered.

I prefer players like that. If you think you are that good then go for it with the teammates you have. Don't ask for an easier club to win with.

Would be cool to see him in the world championships.

 

[Dust]

He wasn’t traded because he packs the building every night and on the off chance he doesn’t make the NHL next year he generates Regina even more money.

They haven't really packed the building at all this year because ticket prices are probably the highest in the CHL. He likely wasn't traded for 2 reasons, 1) Maybe he's really enjoying his time with the Pats and didn't want to be traded (they can't trade him unless he consents to it due to his age), and 2) The Pats ownership has a massive ego and wants to milk his presence for every dollar.

If they keep ticket prices the same for next season, there's gonna be 1500 people at every game.

 

[daver]

Can we stop engaging with WhiskeyYerTheDevils? This thread would be much more pleasant without the frustrating generational debates with him that never seem to end.

Simple clearly the whl is just weaker than ever

I agree. Postulates seems to want in on the action.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

When he is proven to be completely wrong next year I really hope he deletes his account in shame but he probably won't. He is clueless or completely blinded by his love of Jack Hughes, maybe both.

I'm projecting him to score ~40+40 next year. What do you expect from him?

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

I'm projecting him to score ~40+40 next year. What do you expect from him?

Who is the last 18 year old Rookie to score 40 goals? Matthews did it but he was 19, Crosby had 39, Laine 36, but I can't remember any 18 year olds actually doing it.

It would be quite the feat for sure, given his immense talent and state of scoring league-wide I'd say he's got a pretty good shot at it.

Edit - had to go look it up. There has only been 3 - Gretzky(51), Hawerchuk(45), and Sylvain Turgeon, who was the most recent to do so in 1984 with 40 goals. Yzerman had 39 and Jimmy Carson had 37. That's the list of every 18 year old to have over 35 goals. Bellows had exactly 35, and then Bobby Carpenter had 32.

Also, FWIW, 80 pts would rank 4th all time for 18 year olds. Gretzky (137), Hawerchuk (103), Crosby (102), and Yzerman (87) are the only ones to do it.

 

[Gold Standard]

Who is the last 18 year old Rookie to score 40 goals? Matthews did it but he was 19, Crosby had 39, Laine 36, but I can't remember any 18 year olds actually doing it.

It would be quite the feat for sure, given his immense talent and state of scoring league-wide I'd say he's got a pretty good shot at it.

Edit - had to go look it up. There has only been 3 - Gretzky(51), Hawerchuk(45), and Sylvain Turgeon, who was the most recent to do so in 1984 with 40 goals. Yzerman had 39 and Jimmy Carson had 37. That's the list of every 18 year old to have over 35 goals. Bellows had exactly 35, and then Bobby Carpenter had 32.

Also, FWIW, 80 pts would rank 4th all time for 18 year olds. Gretzky (137), Hawerchuk (103), Crosby (102), and Yzerman (87) are the only ones to do it.

I really do get out of his nonsense.