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C Connor Bedard - Regina Pats, WHL (2023 Draft) Part 2

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Pavel Buchnevich said:
The generational players never have to have these excuses made for them.
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I mean is it an excuse or just watching the games? The serious lack of talent he has to play with is a real thing. His most talented teammate is likely Howe who is 15 years old. Now I will preface this by saying I do not think he is a McDavid level prospect...at all. I also think the whole generational or not generational talk is rather meaningless. But in McDavid's 16 year old season he had 19 year old Connor Brown and Dane Fox as 100+ point scores, Burakovksy as a 40 goal scorer and Travis Dermott and Adam Pelech on defense. I guess my point is call him generational or not generational but to look at his scoring output and make a judgement of him as a prospect without looking into with more context is silly. I don't think it is a coincidence the second he showed up at camp with Canada he started to produce immediately.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
McDavid was viewed as better. Tavares was on a path to generational. Then he fell off. Bedard might’ve been on a path at 15. If he was, he fell off it this year. Nearly impossible to maintain. Very few have.
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How would McDavid possibly have been viewed as better when Tavares had such better stats in the OHL?
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
Same players as most. Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid. Bedard is not generational at this point after the season he’s having.
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Who cares, 'generational' means nothing. He's extremely good and there is no navigating around that.

15 points in his last 5 games. WHL has just re-started as of yesterday - let's see how he finishes the season up...
 
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Zine said:
Yeah, no. Every single Canadian (men player) who makes the roster would thouroughly annihilate the WHL 10x more than Bedard is currently capable of. We're talking Men vs Boys regardless of innate skill level.

It's for this reason Michkov is being left off Russia's roster. Michkov has shown some flashes of brilliance when given sheltered minutes against mediocre/low level KHL teams, but he's also been exposed by trying things that just doesn't work vs men and has been physically overmatched.
Same thing occured at the EHT, which was several levels below what the Olympics will be.

Unless you're a Gretzky, or a freak-of-nature manchild like Lindros, you don't belong at this level at 16.
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Agreed.

A player’s growth and development needs to be carefully and wisely handled. The worst thing that happens if Bedard remains in junior hockey and skips the Olympics is he continues to grow and develop in the WHL. There’s no downside.

But the worst thing that happens if Bedard leaves junior hockey and plays in the Olympics is he ends up with crushed confidence.

To me, he’s not a lab rat and the risk just isn’t worth the reward — nobody, as the saying goes, is harmed by staying in junior for an extra season, and Bedard isn’t harmed by remaining one of the youngest players in junior hockey this season.
 
TheBeastCoast said:
I mean is it an excuse or just watching the games? The serious lack of talent he has to play with is a real thing. His most talented teammate is likely Howe who is 15 years old. Now I will preface this by saying I do not think he is a McDavid level prospect...at all. I also think the whole generational or not generational talk is rather meaningless. But in McDavid's 16 year old season he had 19 year old Connor Brown and Dane Fox as 100+ point scores, Burakovksy as a 40 goal scorer and Travis Dermott and Adam Pelech on defense. I guess my point is call him generational or not generational but to look at his scoring output and make a judgement of him as a prospect without looking into with more context is silly. I don't think it is a coincidence the second he showed up at camp with Canada he started to produce immediately.
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Call it what you want. This never has to come up for the generational players in junior hockey. It’s not even like Ovechkin potentially having to go against men in the second best league in the world at 16. This is literal kids. Most of which will not play hockey competitively further than junior. If you are generational, the numbers have to be there against juniors. For the generational players that have been universally lauded as such throughout history, the numbers always have. It’s not a contest of who we like the most. Bedard has fallen off, if he was on the path. How could this actually be argued? Sorry to him, but it’s a tough standard to reach for a reason.
 
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TheBeastCoast said:
Every time I watch him play he looks way better then his raw numbers in the WHL show out. I think true talent level right now as a 16 year old is probably somewhere between what he is doing now and what he produced last season. His GM gave him nothing to work with.
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This.

Posters should NOT worry what others posters think. If you think he will be generational, God bless you for it. If others don't, that is okay, too. None of it will change how the kid performs.

I hope he is AMAZING.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
McDavid was viewed as better. Tavares was on a path to generational. Then he fell off. Bedard might’ve been on a path at 15. If he was, he fell off it this year. Nearly impossible to maintain. Very few have.
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If he fell off he doesn’t make the World Junior team and we all realize he isn’t as good as we thought. Instead he scores more points than Cros and McDavid in 2 games.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
Call it what you want. This never has to come up for the generational players in junior hockey. It’s not even like Ovechkin potentially having to go against men in the second best league in the world at 16. This is literal kids. Most of which will not play hockey competitively further than junior. If you are generational, the numbers have to be there against juniors. For the generational players that have been universally lauded as such throughout history, the numbers always have. It’s not a contest of who we like the most. Bedard has fallen off, if he was on the path. How could this actually be argued? Sorry to him, but it’s a tough standard to reach for a reason.
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I don't actually care about a generational tag that is arbitrarily decided on. I am arguing that you just pulling up hockeydb looking at his total points and saying its disappointing is about as deep of an analysis as the frozen puddle in my driveway. I don't have any dog in this fight really and I also think Michkov might be better right now. I also know what I have seen with my own eyes when I have watched his games this season. You can act like the rest of his team and external factors don't matter...but they quite obviously do matter and make a difference in what the overall production is at the end of the day.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
We got it. You are on record that Bedard is generational. We can revisit this later.
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This argument is about how good he is right now - not in the future. I’m saying he is in the same tier as Crosby and McDavid as a 16 year old, especially in the context of how they could contribute at the men’s level. I’m not talking about them as prospects, only as players.
 
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McDavid played 119 games in his two pre-draft year OHL seasons. He produced 1.39 points per game and 0.45 goals per game.

Bedard’s sample size is obviously much smaller, but he’s producing at a comparable pace. He’s played 40 games and is at 1.4 points per game and 0.75 goals per game. And of course, 19 points in 9 international contests in that span playing up above his age group.

Just looking at this year (CHL+WJC) compared to McDavid’s draft -1 season, Bedard is at 1.2 points per game and McDavid was at 1.63 points per game. Bedard has 22 goals in 27 games at 0.81 goals per game compared to McDavid with 29 goals in 63 games for 0.46 goals per game. The points gap is one Bedard can close considerably with a strong second half. Don’t forget the 6 month age difference as well.

@Pavel Buchnevich where does he need to finish for you to change your stance?

I don’t think he’ll be as good as McDavid, but his production in the sample size is pretty outstanding. Anyone saying he’s not producing enough to be in the “generational” discussion is not paying attention. Excited to see where he finishes on the season.
 
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prongertheman9 said:
How would McDavid possibly have been viewed as better when Tavares had such better stats in the OHL?
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Bubbles said:
This. The fact that he ignored your correct point says volumes. Tavares at 16 broke Gretzky's record in the OHL. People forget Tavares is the very reason there is an exceptional rule in the first place.
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I don't see who you 2 are talking to I'm fairly certain I have then ignored so hopefully I'm not misunderstanding but...

While early on in McDavids junior career he was out produced by Tavares at the same age, in their draft years McDavid put up 44 goals and 120 points in 47 games which is better than any season Tavares put up.

McDavid was no question seen as the superior prospect due to the fact he was less physically developed at the same age than Tavares and as he developed in the OHL his production scaled to the point where he was ahead by their draft year.
 
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Sweetpotato said:
I don't see who you 2 are talking to I'm fairly certain I have then ignored so hopefully I'm not misunderstanding but...

While early on in McDavids junior career he was out produced by Tavares at the same age, in their draft years McDavid put up 44 goals and 120 points in 47 games which is better than any season Tavares put up.

McDavid was no question seen as the superior prospect due to the fact he was less physically developed at the same age than Tavares and as he developed in the OHL his production scaled to the point where he was ahead by their draft year.
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I don’t think Bedard skates like McDavid. But I do see the similarity that they are (was for Connor) both super good while not being as physically developed as most of their peers.
 
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QJL said:
McDavid played 119 games in his two pre-draft year OHL seasons. He produced 1.39 points per game and 0.45 goals per game.

Bedard’s sample size is obviously much smaller, but he’s producing at a comparable pace. He’s played 40 games and is at 1.4 points per game and 0.75 goals per game. And of course, 19 points in 9 international contests in that span playing up above his age group.

Just looking at this year (CHL+WJC) compared to McDavid’s draft -1 season, Bedard is at 1.2 points per game and McDavid was at 1.53 points per game. Bedard has 22 goals in 27 games at 0.81 goals per game compared to McDavid with 29 goals in 63 games for 0.46 goals per game. The points gap is one Bedard can close considerably with a strong second half. Don’t forget the 6 month age difference as well.

@Pavel Buchnevich where does he need to finish for you to change your stance?

I don’t think he’ll be as good as McDavid, but his production in the sample size is pretty outstanding. Anyone saying he’s not producing enough to be in the “generational” discussion is not paying attention. Excited to see where he finishes on the season.
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The issue here is that McDavid's production took a huge step forward in his 2nd year as he matured physically, while Bedard's production in his 2nd year is actually significantly lower than it was in his 1st.
 
Sweetpotato said:
I don't see who you 2 are talking to I'm fairly certain I have then ignored so hopefully I'm not misunderstanding but...

While early on in McDavids junior career he was out produced by Tavares at the same age, in their draft years McDavid put up 44 goals and 120 points in 47 games which is better than any season Tavares put up.

McDavid was no question seen as the superior prospect due to the fact he was less physically developed at the same age than Tavares and as he developed in the OHL his production scaled to the point where he was ahead by their draft year.
Click to expand...

The discussion was about a comparison between the 16 year old years of McDavid and Tavares. We weren't discussing the entirety of their junior careers.
 
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ORRFForever said:
Hard to criticize Bedard for skating like McDavid. Who does?
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With puck on stick no one like McDavid since Bure. Bedard is still such a baby faced boy. I wonder how much more explosive his skating becomes as he matures? going to still be big improvements in his game, which is kind of amazing, considering how good he is already.
 
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