C Connor Bedard - Regina Pats, WHL (2023 Draft) Part 2

[Kshahdoo]

I never considered him generational, the last 2 guys with that label were McDavid and Crosby.

The term "generational" is used very loosely around here and applies neither to Bedard nor Michov for that matter.

There are reasons for this, partly due to the overall increase in talent and defensive and goalie systems but that's for another thread.

Nah, Michkov has been doing generational things right now. There have not been better kids than him in Soviet/Russian hockey. At least at U18 age. He's been doing better than Ovechkin, Malkin, Kucherov at the very least.

 

[wetcoast]

Nah, Michkov has been doing generational things right now. There have not been better kids than him in Soviet/Russian hockey. At least at U18 age. He's been doing better than Ovechkin, Malkin, Kucherov at the very least.

Was Kucherov ever considered a generational prospect?

Malkin and Ovechkin were rated extremely high to be sure and there are a ton of reasons for this, skillsets, size, production ect...

We will agree to disagree then as I don't think either guy is a generational prospect.

My criteria is very high and there are maybe 7 guys that fit that bill if I include Potvin as Dmen are hard to compare as the jump to the NHL is harder for Dmen IMO.

My list chronologically is

Orr
Potvin
Gretzky
Mario
Lindros
Crosby
McDavid

To me a generational prospect is a guy who is spotted in his early teens and is a can't miss superstar and hits the NHL running at full speed and has an elite impact from day one.

These things are hard to compare and there is some wriggle room as the draft used to be for 20 years olds which can obviously make a huge difference in how guys jump to the NHL.

To me Bedard/Michov are on the Dionne/Lafleur scale of prospects, which is really darn high.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

We will agree to disagree then as I don't think either guy is a generational prospect.

My criteria is very high and there are maybe 7 guys that fit that bill if I include Potvin as Dmen are hard to compare as the jump to the NHL is harder for Dmen IMO.

My list chronologically is

Orr
Potvin
Gretzky
Mario
Lindros
Crosby
McDavid

To me a generational prospect is a guy who is spotted in his early teens and is a can't miss superstar and hits the NHL running at full speed and has an elite impact from day one.

These things are hard to compare and there is some wriggle room as the draft used to be for 20 years olds which can obviously make a huge difference in how guys jump to the NHL.

To me Bedard/Michov are on the Dionne/Lafleur scale of prospects, which is really darn high.

I think tsn had a feature calling mcdavid "the 7th son" before the draft - same list as yours except Lafleur instead of Potvin. Either could be included IMO.

Edit - for the record I think OVI was very close to seen as this, and had he been Canadian he likely would have been viewed even higher. There were legitimate claims, even in 2003/04 that he rivalled Crosby as a prospect.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

delete

 

[Kshahdoo]

Was Kucherov ever considered a generational prospect?

Malkin and Ovechkin were rated extremely high to be sure and there are a ton of reasons for this, skillsets, size, production ect...

We will agree to disagree then as I don't think either guy is a generational prospect.

My criteria is very high and there are maybe 7 guys that fit that bill if I include Potvin as Dmen are hard to compare as the jump to the NHL is harder for Dmen IMO.

My list chronologically is

Orr
Potvin
Gretzky
Mario
Lindros
Crosby
McDavid

To me a generational prospect is a guy who is spotted in his early teens and is a can't miss superstar and hits the NHL running at full speed and has an elite impact from day one.

These things are hard to compare and there is some wriggle room as the draft used to be for 20 years olds which can obviously make a huge difference in how guys jump to the NHL.

To me Bedard/Michov are on the Dionne/Lafleur scale of prospects, which is really darn high.

So the best goal scorer NHL has ever had isn't generational? I'm afraid even die hard Canadian fans won't agree with you. Still, not gonna start another lenthy discussion Bedard vs Michkov. The only thing I wanna say, calling this season "not bad so far" for Bedard is pretty arguable at the very least.

 

[wetcoast]

I think tsn had a feature calling mcdavid "the 7th son" before the draft - same list as yours except Lafleur instead of Potvin. Either could be included IMO.

That's why this term is difficult as it's reasonable to except that Lafleur could have had a Dionne impact had he been drafted by Detroit or the Golden Seals in his rookie season.

Even so Dionne was just out of the top 10 in scoring his first season, guys like Crosby, Gretzky, Lindros and even Mario score at a rate to be in the top 10 easily.

I know Mario was out of the top 10 with 100 points in 73 games but if he plays a full schedule he is easily inside it and his linemates....yikes.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

So the best goal scorer NHL has ever had isn't generational? I'm afraid even die hard Canadian fans won't agree with you. Still, not gonna start another lenthy discussion Bedard vs Michkov. The only thing I wanna say, calling this season "not bad so far" for Bedard is pretty arguable at the very least.

In terms of being Hailed "the next one" he was not to the level of a Lemieux, Lindros, Crosby. McDavid. However, he was basically viewed just a level below this (in NA at least). I have got to admit though I really think if we were from Canada we would have been calling him the next one just the same

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

That's why this term is difficult as it's reasonable to except that Lafleur could have had a Dionne impact had he been drafted by Detroit or the Golden Seals in his rookie season.

Even so Dionne was just out of the top 10 in scoring his first season, guys like Crosby, Gretzky, Lindros and even Mario score at a rate to be in the top 10 easily.

I know Mario was out of the top 10 with 100 points in 73 games but if he plays a full schedule he is easily inside it and his linemates....yikes.

They were more talking about how they were viewed on draft day. Lafleur/Dionne was a debate but Lafleur was the one being hailed as hockey's next megastar during his junior days. It took him a few seasons but he proved his billing was definitely warranted.

 

[wetcoast]

So the best goal scorer NHL has ever had isn't generational? I'm afraid even die hard Canadian fans won't agree with you. Still, not gonna start another lenthy discussion Bedard vs Michkov. The only thing I wanna say, calling this season "not bad so far" for Bedard is pretty arguable at the very least.

Like I said the line has some fluidity to it but Bure had a better age 17 season in the KHL and was probably the better prospect and I'm a huge fan of him and Ovi but my criteria is really high.

So many factors come into play as well like the WJC U-18s and size and draft eligibility changing over time, if there was a common NHL draft age at 20 the "generational" term would obviously apply to more players like Ovi, Bure, Jagr, Forsberg ext... but then again the term generational would be changed then if there were say 30 or 40 guys in the last 50 years.

Tavares looked like a generational prospect and so did Spezza to a degree but they are even further back than the group just listed.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

Like I said the line has some fluidity to it but Bure had a better age 17 season in the KHL and was probably the better prospect and I'm a huge fan of him and Ovi but my criteria is really high.

So many factors come into play as well like the WJC U-18s and size and draft eligibility changing over time, if there was a common NHL draft age at 20 the "generational" term would obviously apply to more players like Ovi, Bure, Jagr, Forsberg ext... but then again the term generational would be changed then if there were say 30 or 40 guys in the last 50 years.

Tavares looked like a generational prospect and so did Spezza to a degree but they are even further back than the group just listed.

Yeah ovi really was so close to this and he was Russian, and many russian Pundits and even some NHL scouts were saying Ovi could end up being as good as Crosby, so I think we really need to take into perspective that most of the media at the time we were exposed to had North American bias

 

[Kshahdoo]

In terms of being Hailed "the next one" he was not to the level of a Lemieux, Lindros, Crosby. McDavid. However, he was basically viewed just a level below this (in NA at least). I have got to admit though I really think if we were from Canada we would have been calling him the next one just the same

"Just a level below" prospect was probably someone like Tavares? In his 16-17 yo season Tavares scored 134 points in 67 games, added 19 points in 9 playoff games. Stamkos didn't look as good as Tavares, but still scored 92 points in 63 games. Bedard with his 13 points after 17 games has to do better.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

"Just a level below" prospect was probably someone like Tavares? In his 16-17 yo season Tavares scored 134 points in 67 games, added 19 points in 9 playoff games. Stamkos didn't look as good as Tavares, but still scored 92 points in 63 games. Bedard with his 13 points after 17 games has to do better.

Yeah I have never used the term generational for any prospect since Crosby besides McDavid. Tavares was trending in that direction but ultimately by his draft year there was question if he was better than Hedman. He was a good 1OA but also had too big of a question mark with his skating to be seen as generational. Stats aside, he just was not good enough to earn the label.

 

[wetcoast]

"Just a level below" prospect was probably someone like Tavares? In his 16-17 yo season Tavares scored 134 points in 67 games, added 19 points in 9 playoff games. Stamkos didn't look as good as Tavares, but still scored 92 points in 63 games. Bedard with his 13 points after 17 games has to do better.

There is what 18 months until the 23 draft?

Have you watched Bedard play this season he is still creating scoring opportunities out of his ass.

When other teams in the WHL game plan around a 16 year old player that tells you how good said player is.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Like I said the line has some fluidity to it but Bure had a better age 17 season in the KHL and was probably the better prospect and I'm a huge fan of him and Ovi but my criteria is really high.

So many factors come into play as well like the WJC U-18s and size and draft eligibility changing over time, if there was a common NHL draft age at 20 the "generational" term would obviously apply to more players like Ovi, Bure, Jagr, Forsberg ext... but then again the term generational would be changed then if there were say 30 or 40 guys in the last 50 years.

Tavares looked like a generational prospect and so did Spezza to a degree but they are even further back than the group just listed.

If Bure and Malkin had Ovi's health, they would have probably been as generational as him, if not better. It still doesn't make Ovechkin any less generational.

 

[Fatass]

"Just a level below" prospect was probably someone like Tavares? In his 16-17 yo season Tavares scored 134 points in 67 games, added 19 points in 9 playoff games. Stamkos didn't look as good as Tavares, but still scored 92 points in 63 games. Bedard with his 13 points after 17 games has to do better.

Didn’t Tavares and ?Stamkos both mature physically at a younger age than Bedard? Bedard still has a very “boyish” look to him. He might have been better served to play Junior A and go to US college and allow his body to develop against weaker competitors during his high school years. He’s still going to grow into a really good player, but his path to that end might be wrong.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

There is what 18 months until the 23 draft?

Have you watched Bedard play this season he is still creating scoring opportunities out of his ass.

When other teams in the WHL game plan around a 16 year old player that tells you how good said player is.

Bedard could still absolutely begin lighting up the WHL any day. He could put up 150 pts next year and be the best prospect we have ever seen. But at the end of the day as it stands, there is some legitimacy to question if he is truly in that realm right now. If we are talking the Crosbys and McDavids, he has not lived up to that this season.

 

[Kshahdoo]

There is what 18 months until the 23 draft?

Have you watched Bedard play this season he is still creating scoring opportunities out of his ass.

When other teams in the WHL game plan around a 16 year old player that tells you how good said player is.

We're talking about right now though, aren't we? I don't say Bedard can't or won't get them, I just say he has to play better to do this.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

Didn’t Tavares and ?Stamkos both mature physically at a younger age than Bedard? Bedard still has a very “boyish” look to him. He might have been better served to play Junior A and go to US college and allow his body to develop against weaker competitors during his high school years. He’s still going to grow into a really good player, but his path to that end might be wrong.

JT did but Stammer very much looked like a child at 16

 

[wetcoast]

If Bure and Malkin had Ovi's health, they would have probably been as generational as him, if not better. It still doesn't make Ovechkin any less generational.

It's obvious that you and I have different standards on what generational is and most people weren't calling Bedard generational so let's move on here.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Didn’t Tavares and ?Stamkos both mature physically at a younger age than Bedard? Bedard still has a very “boyish” look to him. He might have been better served to play Junior A and go to US college and allow his body to develop against weaker competitors during his high school years. He’s still going to grow into a really good player, but his path to that end might be wrong.

181 lbs with 5'9 height isn't mature enough? You can say this about Michkov, who's like 150 lbs. Bedard looks pretty mature to me.

 

[wetcoast]

We're talking about right now though, aren't we? I don't say Bedard can't or won't get them, I just say he has to play better to do this.

Once again have you watched him play at all this season?

Sure his production is less than one might hope but he is still playing excellent hockey given his age and team situation.

Maybe when he breaks out you can find something different to criticize him for?

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

Once again have you watched him play at all this season?

Sure his production is less than one might hope but he is still playing excellent hockey given his age and team situation.

Maybe when he breaks out you can find something different to criticize him for?

I hate to take the other side on this but nobody is really questioning that he's playing extremely well for a 16 year old on a bad team. But you must admit that regardless, the production is quite a bit lower than any sort of generational prospect has produced at this age, regardless of situation. Bedard is still looking like a front runner for 1st overall and nothing about his skillset suggests he can't become a star in the NHL, but I do agree if he wants to even have any claim to the "generational" label some were very quick to hand him - he needs to produce more. Teams were game planning for Crosby, Lindros and even Tavares. at that age, but they still dominated. Heck, they game planned solely for Nathan MacKinnon when he was 16 and by far the best player on his otherwise average Moosehead team that year and he produced well better than Bedard has.

Again, this is such a small sample size, but at some point one must note that the season has not gone well for Bedard, given the unfathomable standards many set.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Once again have you watched him play at all this season?

Sure his production is less than one might hope but he is still playing excellent hockey given his age and team situation.

Maybe when he breaks out you can find something different to criticize him for?

When he breaks out, I will for sure say something different, but right now I can't even say, whether it when or if he breaks out...

 

[Fantomas]

Bedard is still looking like a front runner for 1st overall

Nope

 

[newmanager]

He still looks pretty darn good. I see a lot of people don't realize how hard it is to put points up in the WHL when not on a good team or at least having 1 or 2 others to defer to. Some may think Mikey Milne or Xavier Simoneau are Canada's best prospects cause of their production. Bedard plays against the 2 most physical divisions in the WHL, the Central and the HUB. No games against the BC or USA divisions this year. He's the team's best player so he's a target.
Just a little perspective. Fabian Lysell who many considered the second best European forward in the 2021 draft plays for Vancouver and is 2 years older than Bedard. He plays in a less physical division and is not a target as he's not nearly the best on his team, is only at a point per game. Put Bedard on Vancouver and Lysell on Regina and the stats would look considerably different. Savoie is good too but swap him with Bedard and the stats change there also.
Really is best to watch the players to get a good handle on a players potential.