Proposal: Building for 2021-2022

[DarkandStormy]

The only players left on the roster who played every game of the 2019 playoffs - if Seth is dealt this summer - are Oliver Bjorkstrand, Cam Atkinson, Boone Jenner, Zach Werenski, Dean Kukan, and Scott Harrington (who is no longer a regular, and never really was but for injuries). Texier played in 8 of the 10 playoff games that year.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Porty on local radio.. its not a city issue, its organizational issue some things need to change, and mainly it had to do with lack of winning. Our pinnacle moment in franchise history was being an 8th seed, winning a playoff series. IT ALL STARTS & ENDS WITH WINNING.. bottom line .

Move Laine... move Werenski... no reason to have a couple players that help you today . Reiterated JD is calling shots, and dramatic tone change from Jarmo saying they keep Jones, and JD saying nope, hes being moved.

Lots of signals that this will be a full rebuild, and the right way. Its what JD does.. did it in ST Louis, Did it in NYR... when came here team overacheived made playoffs first 2 yrs and it tweaked their plans .

 

[VT]

Porty on local radio.. its not a city issue, its organizational issue some things need to change, and mainly it had to do with lack of winning. Our pinnacle moment in franchise history was being an 8th seed, winning a playoff series. IT ALL STARTS & ENDS WITH WINNING.. bottom line .

Move Laine... move Werenski... no reason to have a couple players that help you today . Reiterated JD is calling shots, and dramatic tone change from Jarmo saying they keep Jones, and JD saying nope, hes being moved.

Lots of signals that this will be a full rebuild, and the right way. Its what JD does.. did it in ST Louis, Did it in NYR... when came here team overacheived made playoffs first 2 yrs and it tweaked their plans .

He wants to trade Laine and Werenski again? It hasn't been here in a long time ...

 

[majormajor]

Absolutely.... enough with trying to piece a lineup together. No reason to target a Dannault, Reinhart. I would point out Montreal is going the Colorado route though.. Suzuki and Kotkaniemi are going to be very, very good Centers, which is why we need to do this the correct way.

I think they'll be good but are they really going to be that much better than Danault and Reinhart? Far closer to that than Mackinnon and Makar.

 

[koteka]

Local talk radio and local paper today seem in favor of rebuild.

 

[majormajor]

Porty on local radio.. its not a city issue, its organizational issue some things need to change, and mainly it had to do with lack of winning. Our pinnacle moment in franchise history was being an 8th seed, winning a playoff series. IT ALL STARTS & ENDS WITH WINNING.. bottom line .

Move Laine... move Werenski... no reason to have a couple players that help you today . Reiterated JD is calling shots, and dramatic tone change from Jarmo saying they keep Jones, and JD saying nope, hes being moved.

Lots of signals that this will be a full rebuild, and the right way. Its what JD does.. did it in ST Louis, Did it in NYR... when came here team overacheived made playoffs first 2 yrs and it tweaked their plans .

-- Porty is just spouting off here (like us). He said just yesterday that if you find out Werenski might want to stay then you lock him up. And I agree, I'd back up the brinks truck.

-- I don't think we know for sure that JD and Jarmo's strategies are that different. Jarmo said we'd consider going into the season with Seth unsigned but that hypothetical might just have been Jarmo being cagier and less straightforward than JD. We didn't believe Jarmo the first time (though Porty evidently did and is making much of the about face).

 

[majormajor]

I don’t think the leafs, who swear by analytics, would entertain it. Especially if Jones won’t sign a contract. But if they’d be down, and Jones would be, then I’m good to get Marner.

Keep in mind that their internal analytics can be very different from the public stuff. I remember when Cody Ceci's supposed horrendous analytics was brought up to Dubas in a press conference and he was like "that's not what our analytics says". They have a lot more data than just shot attempt stuff (corsi, xG). They do actual player tracking. They hire better analysts. The public analysts out there on twitter are largely the semi-unemployed analysts that teams passed on.

Get business marketing partners to join in marketing with your team, endorsements and such.
...................................
We were led to believe Seth Jones is a shy introvert.. are you fricking kidding me, the man is extremely well spoken and had opinions on things - we just didn't ask the right questions.

I like the general idea but I have to laugh at this a bit. Seth Jones' opinions on things... are not advertiser friendly. Fake shy Seth might be more marketable than genuine Seth.

 

[LJ7]

Local talk radio and local paper today seem in favor of rebuild.

For what we know now it's the path of least resistance (in a good way) unless some pretty crazy stuff happens this summer

 

[majormajor]

If you retool, maybe this would be fun:

Trade Korpi+1st for Hertl (maybe more)
Trade Jones+Domi for Marner
Trade for Nate Schmidt

Laine - Hertl - Marner
Bjork - Roslovic - Atkinson
Nyquist - Tex - Bemm
Robinson - Jenner - Foudy

Werenski - Schmidt
Gav - Peeke/Lethonen
Kukan/MDZ/Peeke/Lethonen

Merz
Kiv

Another RHD would be good but that's an interesting alternative to a full rebuild to me. Really depends on the returns that get offered (and the draft lottery).

FWIW Hertl is most likely re-signing in San Jose. They're "not rebuilding".

I did basically the same roster experiment as you:

Marner - Reinhart - Laine
Nyquist - Roslovic - Bemstrom
Foudy - Texier - Bjorkstrand
Robinson - Jenner - Atkinson
Foligno?, Hofmann etc...

Werenski - Schmidt
Gavrikov - Holl
Lehtonen - Peeke
Kukan

Elvis
Kiv

The two differences
- Reinhart is doable, and should be a bit less costly than Hertl to acquire. I'd rather have Hertl too but it looks like S.J. isn't giving him up. I think of Reinhart as more of a 2C but he also has 4 straight 20+ goal seasons and should pile them in next to Marner.
- This is Jones+Domi+ for Marner+Holl. They'd have three capable top 4 right side D and we'd have none, so Toronto can spare us Holl. We might be on his partial NTC though.

Some things I notice about this lineup
- We didn't sign any UFAs! So I guess this is less of a ridiculous fantasy?
- It has a super fast D core. Schmidt and Holl add speed, and there's no slow plodders left back there. That makes it much easier for the next coach to employ a fast transition style like Florida and Colorado do.
- Up front the forwards would be good in that fast high-pressure style, except for probably Laine. His acceleration is pitiful and he'd stick out even worse in a faster system.
- I'm still iffy with Tex as a scoring center and there is still a lack of a strong shutdown option at center. Yes I know, Jenner, but he isn't that great at it and we don't want him playing high minutes. So here's a version of the forwards where Laine is traded (he can go for the pick needed to get Reinhart) and Danault is signed with the spare cap.

Marner - Reinhart - Atkinson
Nyquist - Roslovic - Bemstrom
Texier - Danault - Bjorkstrand
Robinson - Jenner - Foudy
Angle/Hofmann/Foligno, etc..

I like that more, but I know some would prefer to have Laine over Danault.

LOL yeah the more I thought about it - that's a lot for real life.

It is a lot but it doesn't look like we've got much choice. Go big or go home.

Also, as noted above, there doesn't even need to be any lucky breaks with UFAs signing here. Though it would certainly help.

 

[KJ Dangler]

@majormajor you make all those moves , and your still looking at a team that likely makes the playoffs, but aren’t going to compete with Carolina , Colorado , Tampa , and you miss out most likely in drafting in top 10 next year , and missing out on some great talent .

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Marner coming in would definitely change the dynamic of who/what is needed at center, giving you some flexibility to not have to focus on guys who drive play offensively.

 

[MissADD]

Something I just thought of, if Elvis is the goalie you are keeping, then you need to move Korpi before the expansion draft. If both are here at that time, you need to protect Korpi so you don't lose him for nothing and still having Korpi leaves Kivlenieks exposed. Now the chances are of losing Kivlenieks in the expansion draft are extremely low, almost zero, but it isn't zero, and because it isn't zero, a move should be made.. Unless they are willing to go with Elvis/Korpi and Tarasov/vet UFA next season, Korpi needs to be dealt if Elvis is deemed the future.
Now if they plan on moving Elvis, this means nothing.

 

[majormajor]

@majormajor you make all those moves , and your still looking at a team that likely makes the playoffs, but aren’t going to compete with Carolina , Colorado , Tampa , and you miss out most likely in drafting in top 10 next year , and missing out on some great talent .

That's where we'll disagree. I look at that lineup and I see a team that could finish 7th in the Metro but could also finish 1st. They'll be in the mix with a chance to grow from there. And this version retains their top pick in this draft, so adding a McTavish, Beniers, or Clarke in a year or two.

Comparing it to other clubs

-- the bottom 9 forwards have similarly impressive scoring depth to the Montreal Canadiens (with us adding their Selke caliber center). Unlike the Habs though we'd have a real topline with one of the league's premier playmakers in Marner. Don't underestimate what Marner can do for his linemates.

-- the D looks fast and well rounded. No elite top pair but pretty solid, and they can all skate and play a fast transition style similar to Colorado / Florida.

-- Elvis can be a damn good goalie.

Yeah I'm not backing down from liking that lineup.

 

[majormajor]

Something I just thought of, if Elvis is the goalie you are keeping, then you need to move Korpi before the expansion draft. If both are here at that time, you need to protect Korpi so you don't lose him for nothing and still having Korpi leaves Kivlenieks exposed. Now the chances are of losing Kivlenieks in the expansion draft are extremely low, almost zero, but it isn't zero, and because it isn't zero, a move should be made.. Unless they are willing to go with Elvis/Korpi and Tarasov/vet UFA next season, Korpi needs to be dealt if Elvis is deemed the future.
Now if they plan on moving Elvis, this means nothing.

Given that most clubs already have another goalie they plan on protecting, we'd get the better return for Korpi after the expansion draft. I like Kiv but I'm fine risking him being selected. We're going to lose someone anyways and it wouldn't be the worst outcome to lose Kiv.

 

[Viqsi]

Move Laine... move Werenski... no reason to have a couple players that help you today .

This is deliberate tanking. f*** tanking. I don't need to keep reiterating why it's a suicidally bad idea.

If you want to go "no bandaid halfhearted patches to the current roster", that's one thing. Forcibly destroying it is never going to be okay. There's a reason "we had to destroy the village to save it" is a common eyeroller.

 

[VT]

the age in 2022 and forget Reinhart is RFA

Marner/25/ -- Reinhart /27/ -- Atkinson /33/
Nyquist /33/ -- Roslovic /25/ -- Bemstrom /23/
Texier /23/ --Danault /29/ -- Bjorkstrand /27/
Robinson /27/ --Jenner /29/ -- Foudy /22/

26,92

under 25
Bemstrom, Texier, Foudy (in the fourth line)

25-29
Marner, Roslovic, Bjorkstrand, Robinson, Danault, Jenner

30 and more
Atkinson, Nyquist

IMHO it isn`t a roster for rebuild

 

[GoJackets1]

I'm not sure if I want Marner. He's definitely outstanding, but we'd only have him for 4 years, in my mind. And, this could be due to media perception, but he seems to have a similar effort issue as Laine. I don't think I want 2 of those guys. I think the Kings are my ideal trade partner. I'd love to get any of Byfield, Turcotte, or Vilardi, in that order, if we can.

Here's my weird, extremely unlikely, "just came up with it 5 seconds ago" thought, that hinges on us winning the lottery. Haven't really thought through who wins this trade yet, but offhand it seems like the Kings would.

1st/2nd OA + Jones for Byfield + 8 OA + another pick/prospect if Seth signs with them. That last plus may be an overpay, I don't know. Feels a bit like we give up the best 2 assets in the deal, but Byfield is a great piece who would probably be the #1 in this draft and is only 3 months older than Owen Power. And we could still pick up McTavish, Johnson, or a D faller at 8. Flame away.

 

[LJ7]

I'm not sure if I want Marner. He's definitely outstanding, but we'd only have him for 4 years, in my mind. And, this could be due to media perception, but he seems to have a similar effort issue as Laine. I don't think I want 2 of those guys. I think the Kings are my ideal trade partner. I'd love to get any of Byfield, Turcotte, or Vilardi, in that order, if we can.

Here's my weird, extremely unlikely, "just came up with it 5 seconds ago" thought, that hinges on us winning the lottery. Haven't really thought through who wins this trade yet, but offhand it seems like the Kings would.

1st/2nd OA + Jones for Byfield + 8 OA + another pick/prospect if Seth signs with them. That last plus may be an overpay, I don't know. Feels a bit like we give up the best 2 assets in the deal, but Byfield is a great piece who would probably be the #1 in this draft and is only 3 months older than Owen Power. And we could still pick up McTavish, Johnson, or a D faller at 8. Flame away.

That trade would be fantastic imo but I don't think LA does it

 

[majormajor]

I'm not sure if I want Marner. He's definitely outstanding, but we'd only have him for 4 years, in my mind. And, this could be due to media perception, but he seems to have a similar effort issue as Laine.

That would be quite the distinction. I don't think it's anything like that. Marner is a soft perimeter type player but as far as I can tell he puts in all the effort that he can.

1st/2nd OA + Jones for Byfield + 8 OA + another pick/prospect if Seth signs with them. That last plus may be an overpay, I don't know. Feels a bit like we give up the best 2 assets in the deal, but Byfield is a great piece who would probably be the #1 in this draft and is only 3 months older than Owen Power. And we could still pick up McTavish, Johnson, or a D faller at 8. Flame away.

Hey, you said it. I don't know if Byfield is actually going to be better than Owen Power. He's actually the lesser player right now, although I'll grant there's a ton of upside there. I'm just not adding to get Byfield. If they want the #1OA for him, maybe, if they want Jones for him, sure. That's it.

 

[GoJackets1]

Hey, you said it. I don't know if Byfield is actually going to be better than Owen Power. He's actually the lesser player right now, although I'll grant there's a ton of upside there. I'm just not adding to get Byfield. If they want the #1OA for him, maybe, if they want Jones for him, sure. That's it.

Admittedly I don't know much about this year's draft class and I've always been pretty high on Byfield, but that's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that Power was really good enough to be that much of a consensus. I'm also putting a pretty high priority on fixing our center woes.

 

[majormajor]

Admittedly I don't know much about this year's draft class and I've always been pretty high on Byfield, but that's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that Power was really good enough to be that much of a consensus. I'm also putting a pretty high priority on fixing our center woes.

If we're going to be selling off like this then we'll have plenty of opportunity to draft centers in the next couple years. There'll be better centers on the board than anything this year (and better than Byfield).

I could be wrong but my perception is that Power is better than Byfield right now while Byfield has more untapped upside.

 

[koteka]

Here is my crazy scenario:

Jones 1/2 retained, Jenner 1/2 retained, Columbus 2021 1st for Point and Tyler Johnson. Solves some Lightning issues. Like can they afford Point’s next contract with all the other big contracts? Sets them up nicely for another Cup run in 2022 and gives Tampa cost controlled top prospect to bring up. Columbus gets Point. Tampa probably says no, but they don’t hang up right away. They would still have crazy talent. The trade saves them cap space. They would obviously have to let Jones and Jenner walk after a year, but they could add some cup chasers willing to sign for cheap then.

Point would probably be pissed. But it would be his team. And he would be really rich signing an 8 year extension.

(Then in an odd twist, Jones goes through free agency and signs back with us because we make the best offer.)

 

[majormajor]

Here is my crazy scenario:

Jones 1/2 retained, Jenner 1/2 retained, Columbus 2021 1st for Pointe and Tyler Johnson. Solves some Lightning issues. Like can they afford Pointe’s next contract with all the other big contracts? Sets them up nicely for another Cup run in 2022 and gives Tampa cost controlled top prospect to bring up. Columbus gets Pointe. Tampa probably says no, but they don’t hang up right away. They would still have crazy talent. The trade saves them cap space. They would obviously have to let Jones and Jenner walk after a year, but they could add some cup chasers willing to sign for cheap then.

Pointe would probably be pissed. But it would be his team. And he would be really rich signing an 8 year extension.

Then in an odd twist, Jones goes through free agency and signs back with us because we make the best offer.

They're not losing Point. They'll unload just about everybody else before they do that. To give Point his raise next year they'll have to ship out a player of the caliber of Killorn or Palat. Not that big of a deal.

 

[koteka]

They're not losing Point. They'll unload just about everybody else before they do that. To give Point his raise next year they'll have to ship out a player of the caliber of Killorn or Palat. Not that big of a deal.

I agree. And I am pro tank. But this is the type of move I would go after and not try to get someone from Buffalo or Toronto. And it is a big enough offer that they would have to think about it.

 

[VT]

1st/2nd OA + Jones for Byfield + 8 OA + another pick/prospect if Seth signs with them. That last plus may be an overpay, I don't know. Feels a bit like we give up the best 2 assets in the deal, but Byfield is a great piece who would probably be the #1 in this draft and is only 3 months older than Owen Power. And we could still pick up McTavish, Johnson, or a D faller at 8. Flame away.

I wish this trade, but if they aren`t sure Jones resign with them I doubt it could be.