Prospect Info: Bruins Prospects Discussion III

[reffree]

The key is foundational players plain and simple

Penguins - Crosby 1 Malkin 2 Fleury 1
Washington- Ovechkin 1 Backstom 4
Chicago - Kane 1 Toews 3
LA - Doughty 2 Kopiter 11

If you want to believe otherwise your call you added Fleury & Stall to good players but they were picked first and second overall

The Big Bad Bruins added Orr & Espodito to a last place team that had McKenzie Green Bucyk Wedtfall Murphy Smith Cashman Awrey Johnston and they suddenly were the greatest scoring team in NHL history

This generation of Cup winners all added 2 HOF players picked 1,2,3 other than LA with Kopiter at 11 but they gaffed at 4 and took Bernier at 11 but struck gold with Quick in third round missing on Betnier

Three is the above four missed on top 5 picks

Sustainable suckage + luck

Bruins core was

Bergeron 45
Krejci & Lucic in 50's
Marchand in 70's
Thomas FA
Chara FA
Kessel 5 swapped for Seguin 2

I also said Pit model wasn't one to follow.
Chicago's one two punch is Kane-Toews, but that's not enough to win, how do they do without Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Byfuglien, etc? Those guys are huge asset. Some because they are still playing key role with the team, others because they were traded for asset, etc. Yes they drafted two key offensive player, but in those same time they draft a top d in the league and 3 others top pair d. Even with Kane and Toews they could do there big ufa signing with Hossa because they where allready set at d with the draft.

If you have a 7-10 guys base on a few drafts, you can add those guys to some of the guys that were allready there and you want to keep. You can sign one or two guy to play an important role, you can trade some of those guy for other need...

Of course, in those 7-10 guys you need high impact player to succed, if they're all 3rd liner 2nd pairing Dman at best you won't be able to sign or trade for your need in top player. But again, if you have those 2-3 top player and draft nothing arround, you won't be able to acquire them all to ufa or trade. Quality is big, but it's nothing without quantity.

 

[reffree]

Actually, CHI was very hit/miss in the draft. Much like the Pens, their foundation was built from two picks:

2006 - Toews (3)
2007 - Kane (1)

Their two best picks other than that were the Keith and Buff picks (2nd and 8th rounds), with Brouwer an honorable mention. They did most of their damage in 2003 (Keith, Crawford, Buff) and 2004 (Bolland, Bickel, Brouwer) even though they wiffed big on the 3rd overall pick (Cam Barker).

What I give Chicago the most credit for is not their drafting (because Toews and Kane were layups and literally the only players they got from the 2005-07 drafts other than those two and Hjalmarsson), but the ability to retool on the fly and choose the right players to let go and bring in as replacements.


ps Wisniewski never played a playoff game in CHI

You can't be successful every year, no team is. They did an amanzing job in a short time, even with their misses.

It applies for the Bruins too. 2003 they got Bergeron only, 2004 they got Krejci only, 2005 they got nothing, 2006 they got Kessel, Lucic, Marchand. At the end that's still 5 high caliber guys you draft in a short time fram that will all have their peak at the same time and it's when those guys will be at their peak that you'll be able to compete.

Wisniewski was still a draft success and "money" in transaction.

 

[b in vancouver]

If you broaden what a successful team is to the four that make the Conference Finals


in 12 years and 48 slots since the Cap was instituted - the teams that built their core through suckage isn't as high as you might think. Most all of them have at least one player picked high - but also remember that near every team in a 15-20 year time frame has picked high.

Pittsburgh - 5
Chicago - 5
Tampa Bay - 2

I think most of us can see the difference between teams that have a bad year - Boston Kessel, Philly JVR, Montreal Gally, NJ Larsson, St. Louis Pietrangelo, Ottawa Spezza, etc. and these teams that purposefully ice inferior rosters and worry more about stocking up on high picks.
It might start working out even more - but those are the only three teams that have really had success in the playoffs. Washington being the other successful team.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

You can't be successful every year, no team is. They did an amanzing job in a short time, even with their misses.

It applies for the Bruins too. 2003 they got Bergeron only, 2004 they got Krejci only, 2005 they got nothing, 2006 they got Kessel, Lucic, Marchand. At the end that's still 5 high caliber guys you draft in a short time fram that will all have their peak at the same time and it's when those guys will be at their peak that you'll be able to compete.

Wisniewski was still a draft success and "money" in transaction.

Wiz didn't do much for CHI before tearing his ACL, then he was dealt to ANA in a minor deal with former B Sami Pahlsson the main piece coming back.

 

[JoeIsAStud]

My List
8) Zboril- Toughest for me to place, only really saw him in memorial cup. Scouts are all over the board on him. How much of his success is related to playing with Chabot? I like his nasty edge and think at worst he becomes a depth defenseman, looking past where he was selected he has a good chance of being a good bottom pairing D or maybe a top 4. Don’t see him as a bust but don’t see him as a top flight D either.

9) Lauzon Haven’t seen a lot, concerned about concussions. What I have read leads me to believe that he plays a good abrasive game and may develop into a depth D

10) O'Gara-non physical McQuaid or K.Miller. with group of young D in Boston and possibly being added by Sweeney may never be more than a 7/8 depth D. Like his size, wished he used it more. Don’t want to compare him to Hal Gill but…..


Others: Chelarik, Donato, McIntyre, Fitzgerald.
Never have beens, never will be’s: Czarnik, Fitzgerald, Koopanen.
Wow, they spent a first round pick on him?????: Subban

In general I think you are hard, for example I think Frederick has potential to slot in much higher than a 3rd line center, but that may be the most likely outcome. I also see DeBrusk as a 2nd line player, who may be wasted on the 3rd line

In terms of ZBoril. How much of his success is dependent on Chabot. I think he has shown to be a better player when Chabot isnt there. So I think the answer is very little

In terms of comparing O'Gara to Hal Gil, that is pretty absurd. O'Gara's skating is on a Much higher level

 

[roflstomper]

Lol rag on Pit and Chi "models" all you want. They have 6 cups combineD.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Lol rag on Pit and Chi "models" all you want. They have 6 cups combineD.

Lol...that's the whole point though (which you apparently aren't getting?).

How can you "model" your franchise after two organizations that hit the lottery jackpot with Crosby, Malkin, Kane, and Toews?

Sounds like saying you are going to make your fortune by "investing" in scratch tickets?

 

[neelynugs]

Missed him he was suppose to be number 6...Haven't seen a lot of him. Have some fears he becomes another Vesey and nothing more than a third liner .

we'd be lucky if bjork turns out like vesey - kid had a really good rookie year and is gonna be a strong top 9 winger for a long time.

 

[JoeIsAStud]

Lol...that's the whole point though (which you apparently aren't getting?).

How can you "model" your franchise after two organizations that hit the lottery jackpot with Crosby, Malkin, Kane, and Toews?

Sounds like saying you are going to make your fortune by "investing" in scratch tickets?

Yup here is the model. Tank for 5-6 straight years, If you get lucky and you get a couple HOF players during that tank cycle you have a real chance to have a dynasty type run

Or if you don't get lucky you either stay near the bottom or maybe just end up getting up to mediocre

 

[PacificNWBruin]

we'd be lucky if bjork turns out like vesey - kid had a really good rookie year and is gonna be a strong top 9 winger for a long time.

This. Plus a 5th rounder ending up being a consistent 3rd liner isnt a bust or disappointing at all.

 

[Fenian24]

In general I think you are hard, for example I think Frederick has potential to slot in much higher than a 3rd line center, but that may be the most likely outcome. I also see DeBrusk as a 2nd line player, who may be wasted on the 3rd line

In terms of ZBoril. How much of his success is dependent on Chabot. I think he has shown to be a better player when Chabot isnt there. So I think the answer is very little

In terms of comparing O'Gara to Hal Gil, that is pretty absurd. O'Gara's skating is on a Much higher level

The Gill comparison was more size and whether he would be physical or just lean on guys like Gill did.Gill could never play today with his skating.

Zboril is very much a question mark with me because of not having seen a lot of him. Some things I have read say he relies on Chabot others, like yourself, say he is better without him. I hope he is better without him and only needs a year or two of development in minors and can then contribute to Boston.

 

[Fenian24]

we'd be lucky if bjork turns out like vesey - kid had a really good rookie year and is gonna be a strong top 9 winger for a long time.

We'll see, the hype machine is already over hyping him. I thought Vesey was mediocre, but for the same reason, all the ridiculous hyperbole surrounding him. I need to see more from Vesey, especially considering he was almost invisible second half of season, before I consider him successful. A great example of a player needing to learn the game in the minors coming from college so he can get used to the schedule.

I saw very little of Bjork, hopefully Bruins management doesn't put im in the same situation as Vesey and let's him develop.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

The Gill comparison was more size and whether he would be physical or just lean on guys like Gill did.Gill could never play today with his skating.

Zboril is very much a question mark with me because of not having seen a lot of him. Some things I have read say he relies on Chabot others, like yourself, say he is better without him. I hope he is better without him and only needs a year or two of development in minors and can then contribute to Boston.

I'm not sure where you read that Zboril "relies" on Chabot? In my limited viewings, I (literally) don't think I ever saw them on the ice together. In the M-Cup, it looked as if he was normally paired up with the RH shooting Chase Stewart?

Maybe he will chime in, but I'm pretty sure Odaat said the whole source of Zboril's frustration two seasons ago (from a Seadogs STH) was because they asked him to be the defensive "shut down" D and be less active offensively as they had Chabot and another PMD (Green?) who were not as strong defensively.

 

[ODAAT]

This. Plus a 5th rounder ending up being a consistent 3rd liner isnt a bust or disappointing at all.

around here it is

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Lol...that's the whole point though (which you apparently aren't getting?).

How can you "model" your franchise after two organizations that hit the lottery jackpot with Crosby, Malkin, Kane, and Toews?

Sounds like saying you are going to make your fortune by "investing" in scratch tickets?

What makes you think the Bruins would have had the same success with this tanking strategy after seeing Sweeniarelli trade Kessel, Seguin, Hamilton for peanuts ?

 

[GloryDaze4877]

What makes you think the Bruins would have had the same success with this tanking strategy after seeing Sweeniarelli trade Kessel, Seguin, Hamilton for peanuts ?

I don't think they would. Not sure what you are getting at?

My original statement was tanking and relying on ping pong balls isn't much of a plan.

 

[roflstomper]

Lol...that's the whole point though (which you apparently aren't getting?).

How can you "model" your franchise after two organizations that hit the lottery jackpot with Crosby, Malkin, Kane, and Toews?

Sounds like saying you are going to make your fortune by "investing" in scratch tickets?

Actually by tanking for top picks those teams are getting higher quality player more likely to become NHL stars. The Bruins seems to be the ones with the scratch ticket attempt by stock piling numerous mid 1st rounders and 2nd rounders hoping they hit on some of them. I'm not saying one way is right or wrong but while you're sitting here laughing at PIT and CHI for "getting lucky" they sit there laughing kissing their rings.

 

[wintersej]

Actually by tanking for top picks those teams are getting higher quality player more likely to become NHL stars. The Bruins seems to be the ones with the scratch ticket attempt by stock piling numerous mid 1st rounders and 2nd rounders hoping they hit on some of them. I'm not saying one way is right or wrong but while you're sitting here laughing at PIT and CHI for "getting lucky" they sit there laughing kissing their rings.

Top 3 picks by year:

2008: TB, LA, ATL/WPG
2009: NYI, TB, COL
2010: EDM, BOS, FLA
2011: EDM, COL, FLA
2012: EDM, CLB, MTL
2013: COL, FLA, TB
2014: FLA, BUF, EDM
2015: EDM: BUF, AZ
2016: TOR, WPG, CLB

Tanking doesn't guarantee anything. Most of those teams are still mediocre or bad.

 

[b in vancouver]

Lol rag on Pit and Chi "models" all you want. They have 6 cups combineD.

Maybe but - others in the 'model' include -
Long Island, Colorado, Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo, Arizona, Columbus, Winnipeg, Florida, Carolina - whom have combined for - how many series wins? - never mind Cups - since they followed that 'model'.

It just doesn't work well. And fans are left watching terrible hockey for years.

 

[DKH]

What makes you think the Bruins would have had the same success with this tanking strategy after seeing Sweeniarelli trade Kessel, Seguin, Hamilton for peanuts ?

The first part of being taken serious is be serious

 

[DKH]

Top 3 picks by year:

2008: TB, LA, ATL/WPG
2009: NYI, TB, COL
2010: EDM, BOS, FLA
2011: EDM, COL, FLA
2012: EDM, CLB, MTL
2013: COL, FLA, TB
2014: FLA, BUF, EDM
2015: EDM: BUF, AZ
2016: TOR, WPG, CLB

Tanking doesn't guarantee anything. Most of those teams are still mediocre or bad.

The last 9 years has

Pittsburgh 3
Chicago 3
LA 2
Boston 1

The foundation starts 3-4 years before

2003-2007

Chicago had 1-3-3-7
Pittsburgh 1-1-2-2-5
LA 2-4-5
Washington 1-4-5
Boston 5

But yah Boston has no excuse they had a bunch of second and third rounders and got Bergeron Lucic Krejci Marchand

The Oilers & Leafs win Cups in 3-4 years

It's

Matthews
Reilly
Marner
Nylander

McDavid
Hall into Larsson
Draitsatl
RNH

I can't even remember all the Oilers top 7 picks anymore

 

[ODAAT]

Lol rag on Pit and Chi "models" all you want. They have 6 cups combineD.

I see the Hawks model, what is the Pens model?

Over the past two cup winning seasons they have essentially placed band-aids on their back end and other positions and hoped those who filled in were able to execute the system and it worked, but it`s hardly a model for success. Can`t take those cup wins away from them but in a perfect world, I`d wager they would have rather not have had to fill those holes because of injuries.

Is that the model? Or is tanking beyond tanking in order to secure the top pick the model?

The Hawks were awful forever before landing the Kane/Toews of the world, since then, they have done a great job bringing in pro talent to plug holes once each year is done and they lose a player or two due to the cap.

 

[tremha]

The Gill comparison was more size and whether he would be physical or just lean on guys like Gill did.Gill could never play today with his skating.

Zboril is very much a question mark with me because of not having seen a lot of him. Some things I have read say he relies on Chabot others, like yourself, say he is better without him. I hope he is better without him and only needs a year or two of development in minors and can then contribute to Boston.

Zboril will be a bust. they should package him to get someone like Brodin. He has talent but no heart. character misread by management

 

[4ORRBRUIN]

Zboril will be a bust. they should package him to get someone like Brodin. He has talent but no heart. character misread by management

So I don't get my hopes up can you tell me who else will be a bust ? Thanks in advance

 

[GarbageGoal]

Shhhh he's a bust but Minnesota is too dumb to know that so they'll hand over Brodin.