Bruins Off Season III

[bp13]

3 Reasons Why the Oilers Not Major Players for Trouba:
http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...t-appear-to-be-major-players-for-jacob-trouba

Interesting to me in this article is both the host's and Mike Johnson's view that Trouba is a better player than Adam Larsson. Now if you cede that that is true, or even that they're basically the same value, then you need to again look at what Larsson fetched. Taylor Hall.

Now I'll stand by my opinion that Chiarelli sold too low on Hall, just as he did with Seguin. But, I think folks arguing that Pasta is an overpay need to look again. He might not be a good fit for Winnipeg and it might hurt the Bruins too much to lose him, but value wise I think that's likely a win for Boston. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable saying Pastrnak is as valuable as Hall, so if Trouba is better than Larsson and Larsson fetched Hall, I'd think Boston would be wise to make that talent swap. Unless again, you believe Chiarelli got absolutely fleeced, then that's another story entirely.

 

[DKH]

3 Reasons Why the Oilers Not Major Players for Trouba:
http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...t-appear-to-be-major-players-for-jacob-trouba

Interesting to me in this article is both the host's and Mike Johnson's view that Trouba is a better player than Adam Larsson. Now if you cede that that is true, or even that they're basically the same value, then you need to again look at what Larsson fetched. Taylor Hall.

Now I'll stand by my opinion that Chiarelli sold too low on Hall, just as he did with Seguin. But, I think folks arguing that Pasta is an overpay need to look again. He might not be a good fit for Winnipeg and it might hurt the Bruins too much to lose him, but value wise I think that's likely a win for Boston. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable saying Pastrnak is as valuable as Hall, so if Trouba is better than Larsson and Larsson fetched Hall, I'd think Boston would be wise to make that talent swap. Unless again, you believe Chiarelli got absolutely fleeced, then that's another story entirely.

Chiarelii got bent over - go read the main and Oilers thread

 

[BruinDust]

3 Reasons Why the Oilers Not Major Players for Trouba:
http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...t-appear-to-be-major-players-for-jacob-trouba

Interesting to me in this article is both the host's and Mike Johnson's view that Trouba is a better player than Adam Larsson. Now if you cede that that is true, or even that they're basically the same value, then you need to again look at what Larsson fetched. Taylor Hall.

Now I'll stand by my opinion that Chiarelli sold too low on Hall, just as he did with Seguin. But, I think folks arguing that Pasta is an overpay need to look again. He might not be a good fit for Winnipeg and it might hurt the Bruins too much to lose him, but value wise I think that's likely a win for Boston. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable saying Pastrnak is as valuable as Hall, so if Trouba is better than Larsson and Larsson fetched Hall, I'd think Boston would be wise to make that talent swap. Unless again, you believe Chiarelli got absolutely fleeced, then that's another story entirely.

I don't think you can argue Trouba for Pastrnak is pretty fair value. One of the two sides might have a small add. I don't see a win for Boston, if anything value wise it's even-stevens IMO.

But with your top 4 forwards between the ages of 28-32, a lot of quantity but not high-end elite level quality coming up, the Bruins simply cannot afford to trade Pastrnak.

Look at the Wings. You could make the same argument about Larkin. The value is there for both sides, but like Boston and Pasta, it makes zero sense for Detroit to move out Larkin. They have the same issue, plenty of quantity up front, but not really much high-end quality.

Trouba fills a need for both teams. Problem is the hole created by moving a Larkin or Pastrnak to get a Trouba might hurt both franchises more in the long-run.

You also have to consider this. High-end skill guys sell more tickets to games than a well-rounded D-man like a Jacob Trouba. Larkin and Pasta might be the face of both franchises in 5 years. Is anyone dropping big bucks to watch the strong defensive play of Trouba?

 

[Eddie Munson]

3 Reasons Why the Oilers Not Major Players for Trouba:
http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...t-appear-to-be-major-players-for-jacob-trouba

Interesting to me in this article is both the host's and Mike Johnson's view that Trouba is a better player than Adam Larsson. Now if you cede that that is true, or even that they're basically the same value, then you need to again look at what Larsson fetched. Taylor Hall.

Now I'll stand by my opinion that Chiarelli sold too low on Hall, just as he did with Seguin. But, I think folks arguing that Pasta is an overpay need to look again. He might not be a good fit for Winnipeg and it might hurt the Bruins too much to lose him, but value wise I think that's likely a win for Boston. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable saying Pastrnak is as valuable as Hall, so if Trouba is better than Larsson and Larsson fetched Hall, I'd think Boston would be wise to make that talent swap. Unless again, you believe Chiarelli got absolutely fleeced, then that's another story entirely.

While I tend to agree with the base premise of their argument that Trouba is better than Larsson. This is also glossing over the fact that Larsson was signed to a contract at the time of the deal, Trouba is not. Larsson didn't publically request a trade stating not only desired salary but also position and minutes he wants to play. So in a Hall/Larsson deal both teams are dealing from a position of strength. In this case both Winnipeg and Trouba have a hand in this trade and for better or worse that does effect trade value.

 

[Duguay]

As brutal as that turnover was, all I could think was "wow, the big guy can still move when he wants to".

His skating looks better than last year. Maybe it took longer than we thought for him to fully recover from that knee injury from late 2014.

Great on the the health and the knee but lets not make the same mistake this team has been making in their overall big picture planning. That is over relying on a diminishing asset. Put him in a place to win, and this team has a better chance.

Less TOI.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

3 Reasons Why the Oilers Not Major Players for Trouba:
http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...t-appear-to-be-major-players-for-jacob-trouba

Interesting to me in this article is both the host's and Mike Johnson's view that Trouba is a better player than Adam Larsson. Now if you cede that that is true, or even that they're basically the same value, then you need to again look at what Larsson fetched. Taylor Hall.

Now I'll stand by my opinion that Chiarelli sold too low on Hall, just as he did with Seguin. But, I think folks arguing that Pasta is an overpay need to look again. He might not be a good fit for Winnipeg and it might hurt the Bruins too much to lose him, but value wise I think that's likely a win for Boston. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable saying Pastrnak is as valuable as Hall, so if Trouba is better than Larsson and Larsson fetched Hall, I'd think Boston would be wise to make that talent swap. Unless again, you believe Chiarelli got absolutely fleeced, then that's another story entirely.

I haven't seen enough of Trouba/Larsson to say one is better than the other, but I do believe that Chia got fleeced in that deal. I would say the same if he had dealt Hall for Trouba.

Also, just because Chia made one bad deal, that doesn't mean it's a trend. Every team is different and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For whatever reason, Chia felt the need for a Larsson-type D was so great he was willing to part with Hall. On the other hand, Don Sweeney was willing to part with a different type of D in Hamilton for picks. So, who knows what WPG will think is fair value given their current situation?

 

[BruinDust]

Great on the the health and the knee but lets not make the same mistake this team has been making in their overall big picture planning. That is over relying on a diminishing asset. Put him in a place to win, and this team has a better chance.

Less TOI.

No argument here.

Lot's of minutes creates fatigue, which leads to mental mistakes.

Get him off the PP for starters.

Hand a minute or two of even strength play over the Krug's pairing when the situation allows it.

Although I wonder how much of the PP stuff is Chara and not Julien. It's hard for pro athlete's to accept their skills have diminished and they need to take on a lesser role, in Chara's case no more PP time.

 

[DKH]

3 Reasons Why the Oilers Not Major Players for Trouba:
http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...t-appear-to-be-major-players-for-jacob-trouba

Interesting to me in this article is both the host's and Mike Johnson's view that Trouba is a better player than Adam Larsson. Now if you cede that that is true, or even that they're basically the same value, then you need to again look at what Larsson fetched. Taylor Hall.

Now I'll stand by my opinion that Chiarelli sold too low on Hall, just as he did with Seguin. But, I think folks arguing that Pasta is an overpay need to look again. He might not be a good fit for Winnipeg and it might hurt the Bruins too much to lose him, but value wise I think that's likely a win for Boston. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable saying Pastrnak is as valuable as Hall, so if Trouba is better than Larsson and Larsson fetched Hall, I'd think Boston would be wise to make that talent swap. Unless again, you believe Chiarelli got absolutely fleeced, then that's another story entirely.

The bigger fleece is picks 16 (Barzal and also passing on Connor) and 33 (could have had Carlo) for Griffin Reinhart

Ouch

 

[DKH]

Peter Chiarelli basically traded

Taylor Hall

And choice of Barzal or Connor

Choice of Brandon Carlo

For

Adam Larsson

Griffin Reinhart

My advice is Peter get out of the trading for defenseman business
And signing to - Ference & Sekera

Sweeney did that

 

[Duguay]

I haven't seen enough of Trouba/Larsson to say one is better than the other, but I do believe that Chia got fleeced in that deal. I would say the same if he had dealt Hall for Larsson.

Also, just because Chia made one bad deal, that doesn't mean it's a trend. Every team is different and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For whatever reason, Chia felt the need for a Larsson-type D was so great he was willing to part with Hall. On the other hand, Don Sweeney was willing to part with a different type of D in Hamilton for picks. So, who knows what WPG will think is fair value given their current situation?

I am sure Winnipeg, as they have the hammer, will over-value this asset; as opposed to the Bruins under valuing their former assets like Hamilton, Seguin and Thornton before them. Why wouldn't they? They have the time, the patience, and 29 other teams are privy to the asset lottery. That=overpayment for those who are not patient, or have (sometimes self created) holes in their lineup.

 

[bp13]

Alright so I don't understand some of the logic I read in this thread.

It appears most of you feel Chiarelli got fleeced in the Hall deal, to varying degrees. I think he did too. But why then do people simultaneously insist that the market for d-men is so tight? Just a month or so ago people making that claim used the Hall-Larsson deal as an example, now it seems everyone acknowledges that was a fleecing. So what other examples do we have of why the D market is supposedly so tough?

Last summer Hamilton got dealt for a mid-1st and two 2nds. The year before Boychuk went for two 2nds. Supposedly last spring Shattenkirk could have been gone to Boston for a few months of Loui, a late pick and some money. What is so terrible about that market???

 

[bruinmann77]

I wont mortgage the future for this kid .

 

[DKH]

Alright so I don't understand some of the logic I read in this thread.

It appears most of you feel Chiarelli got fleeced in the Hall deal, to varying degrees. I think he did too. But why then do people simultaneously insist that the market for d-men is so tight? Just a month or so ago people making that claim used the Hall-Larsson deal as an example, now it seems everyone acknowledges that was a fleecing. So what other examples do we have of why the D market is supposedly so tough?

Last summer Hamilton got dealt for a mid-1st and two 2nds. The year before Boychuk went for two 2nds. Supposedly last spring Shattenkirk could have been gone to Boston for a few months of Loui, a late pick and some money. What is so terrible about that market???

Times and situations change. We are here.

Two wrongs don't make a right

I hope we get Trouba but we need a third team

If they trade Pastrnak for him our top RW if Backes plays center is Jimmy Hayes

The plan is clearly

Pastrnak & Senyshyn as two high skilled RH shots on right side

Trading Pastrnak creates a crater on the right side not a hole

 

[Eddie Munson]

I am sure Winnipeg, as they have the hammer, will over-value this asset; as opposed to the Bruins under valuing their former assets like Hamilton, Seguin and Thornton before them. Why wouldn't they? They have the time, the patience, and 29 other teams are privy to the asset lottery.[\B] That=overpayment for those who are not patient, or have (sometimes self created) holes in their lineup.

That's only half true. Just like the Hamilton situation the team that trades for Trouba is going to want to speak with him and discuss contract beforehand. Trouba's camp is looking for 6m a year and top-4 minutes on the right side of a defense. That right there limits which teams would be able to sign him, then you have to factor which of those rams actually has an asset that Winnipeg would want. The list starts to get short real quick much like the speculation that Hamilton would only play for a Canadian team.

Fact is, young players in this league are starting to use their RFA status as almost a limited NTC in that they have a list of teams/demands they expect to be met and hold the final say in almost any decision. The only leverage Winnipeg has is that they currently own his rights so they can try and demand whatever they want but Trouba's demands ultimately set the market, and the fact they have the final option in any offersheet situation. Not a great hand to be holding as Don Sweeney quickly found out.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I am sure Winnipeg, as they have the hammer, will over-value this asset; as opposed to the Bruins under valuing their former assets like Hamilton, Seguin and Thornton before them. Why wouldn't they? They have the time, the patience, and 29 other teams are privy to the asset lottery. That=overpayment for those who are not patient, or have (sometimes self created) holes in their lineup.

I'm not sure if you read some of the posts preceding mine, but not everyone thinks that WPG has the hammer to the extent you seem to think? Whether they have the time and patience remains to be seen.

I maintain the idea that every deal is unique, including the three that you so cavalierly clump together above

 

[EverettMike]

Liles > Irwin

Seidenberg HF whipping boy gone

Krug healthier

Chara skating much better - that play last night as bad as it ended was not something he tries here and showed how good he must feel; that was an All Star game move. I watched him and he looked better than last year

Even with all the suckage at 70 games they were in first

So addition by subtraction and adding young D from system along the way should be good enough

Baghdad Dan with maybe his best yet.

And you even included your classic "at 70 games" line for fans of your early work. I love it. Great concert.

 

[bp13]

Times and situations change. We are here.

Two wrongs don't make a right

I hope we get Trouba but we need a third team

Where are we? Nobody gets to float some theory like it's fact and use it as an excuse for an inactive GM. If you can show that defensemen are getting ransoms on the market, I'll believe you when you say Sweeney needs to overpay. But if you can't, this suggestion that the market is tough doesn't carry any weight.

 

[bp13]

Times and situations change. We are here.

Two wrongs don't make a right

I hope we get Trouba but we need a third team

If they trade Pastrnak for him our top RW if Backes plays center is Jimmy Hayes

The plan is clearly

Pastrnak & Senyshyn as two high skilled RH shots on right side

Trading Pastrnak creates a crater on the right side not a hole

Right. And right now our top RHD man is either Colin Miller or Kevan Miller. And no matter how you slice it, Kevan Miller is in our top 4. I'd call that a disaster of far greater proportions than having Jimmy Hayes as your best RW.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Right. And right now our top RHD man is either Colin Miller or Kevan Miller. And no matter how you slice it, Kevan Miller is in our top 4. I'd call that a disaster of far greater proportions than having Jimmy Hayes as your best RW.

That's debatable.

 

[EverettMike]

Liles > Irwin

Seidenberg HF whipping boy gone

Krug healthier

Chara skating much better - that play last night as bad as it ended was not something he tries here and showed how good he must feel; that was an All Star game move. I watched him and he looked better than last year

Even with all the suckage at 70 games they were in first

So addition by subtraction and adding young D from system along the way should be good enough

Irwin played two games, so what am I missing here?

Also, Liles sucks, so again, what am I missing here?

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Baghdad Dan with maybe his best yet.

And you even included your classic "at 70 games" line for fans of your early work. I love it. Great concert.

Baghdad Dan?

Sorry, I'm missing the reference?

 

[DKH]

Baghdad Dan with maybe his best yet.

And you even included your classic "at 70 games" line for fans of your early work. I love it. Great concert.

I got bad news for you 90% of the time I agree with you I only swoop in on the 10%

 

[bp13]

That's debatable.

That's fine. I suppose it is. And don't get me wrong, if Jimmy Hayes is your best RW that's big trouble.

But when you look at the bigger picture, you could use Backes as RW. Further, the rest of your offense includes Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci, Backes, Spooner, etc. On the flip side, along with having the Millers as your top 2 RHD, you have a mediocre to bad defense otherwise. Chara is still your best dman despite his age and limitations, Krug is next, and your third pair is average.

In my opinion, losing Pasta brings your offense from very good to maybe just good, or average. Right now your D is bad. Maybe not terrible (I'd say it is), but certainly quite bad. If you add Trouba, you are maybe close to average, or average. I'd much rather that scenario.

 

[DKH]

Right. And right now our top RHD man is either Colin Miller or Kevan Miller. And no matter how you slice it, Kevan Miller is in our top 4. I'd call that a disaster of far greater proportions than having Jimmy Hayes as your best RW.

Ok so you are GM of Boston what is your deal to get Trouba

 

[Duguay]

That's only half true. Just like the Hamilton situation the team that trades for Trouba is going to want to speak with him and discuss contract beforehand. Trouba's camp is looking for 6m a year and top-4 minutes on the right side of a defense. That right there limits which teams would be able to sign him, then you have to factor which of those rams actually has an asset that Winnipeg would want. The list starts to get short real quick much like the speculation that Hamilton would only play for a Canadian team.

Fact is, young players in this league are starting to use their RFA status as almost a limited NTC in that they have a list of teams/demands they expect to be met and hold the final say in almost any decision. The only leverage Winnipeg has is that they currently own his rights so they can try and demand whatever they want but Trouba's demands ultimately set the market, and the fact they have the final option in any offersheet situation. Not a great hand to be holding as Don Sweeney quickly found out.

Yes, the trick is not to panic when you have the hammer. I'm sure Don Sweeney has learned this lesson. He'd better have.