Player Discussion Brock Boeser - Brock Around the Clock

[PuckMunchkin]

I mean, those are the players with actual value. Maybe 30% of guys stick in the NHL but half are guys who simply aren’t worth much of anything.

If you trade a core player that you could re-sign and get back a late first round pick, you are generally losing that trade.


It’s frankly f***ing astonishing how many fans think that trading actual good NHL players for crappy overrated draft picks is some sort of big win.

Top-10 picks are worth a fortune. A #26 overall pick is not much of anything.

Well we are f***ed for an eternity then.

No past no present and no future for this team.

Edit. If people take that as gospel I can see how the current desperate plan makes sense...

 

[MS]

Well we are f***ed for an eternity then.

No past no present and no future for this team.

Edit. If people take that as gospel I can see how the current desperate plan makes sense...

You would have been screaming to trade away everyone off the 2008 Canucks and 2019 Panthers because there was zero hope for those teams.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

You would have been screaming to trade away everyone off the 2008 Canucks and 2019 Panthers because there was zero hope for those teams.

I wasn't screaming that in -08. I was here. I didn't understand the Sundin deal, but have been proven wrong with how the players talk about his time here.


We are in no position to replicate what the Panthers did because of our contract structure.


Again. The plan cannot include "... and then we find players out of thin air." "... and then we fleece another NHL team."

 

[credulous]

You would have been screaming to trade away everyone off the 2008 Canucks and 2019 Panthers because there was zero hope for those teams.

they did tear up the 2019 panthers. two years later and the only players who remained were huberdeau, barkov, ekblad and weegar (and yandle, kinda)

 

[PuckMunchkin]

they did tear up the 2019 panthers. two years later and the only players who remained were huberdeau, barkov, ekblad and weegar (and yandle, kinda)

But they didnt tank or acquire draft picks.

They did build through trades and free agency around the pieces you listed.

I feel like it is not a way you should expect to succeed. The degree of difficult was immense. IMO

 

[credulous]

But they didnt tank or acquire draft picks.

They did build through trades and free agency around the pieces you listed.

I feel like it is not a way you should expect to succeed. The degree of difficult was immense. IMO

they may not have tanked but they certainly weren't afraid to take a step back and get rid of productive players like dadanov, hoffman, matheson and trochek if they thought they could do better long term without them

the canucks under allvin have not to date cut ties with any significant players other than hamonic and that was because hamonic forced their hands

 

[mriswith]

Florida was also a generational turnaround. Every year most teams are trying to do what Florida did but there's basically only one example of a team succeeding like they did from the position they were in since the salary cap arrived - them.

It's kind of funny that people will talk about draft picks like they're magic beans but point to generational management turnarounds as a model. It's literally more common to draft a McDavid tier player than experience what Florida did from the position they were in.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Florida was also a generational turnaround. Every year most teams are trying to do what Florida did but there's basically only one example of a team succeeding like they did from the position they were in since the salary cap arrived - them.

It's kind of funny that people will talk about draft picks like they're magic beans but point to generational management turnarounds as a model. It's literally more common to draft a McDavid tier player than experience what Florida did from the position they were in.

Yeah. This should be obvious.

But no facts matter. No logical fallacy is too flawed to use.

Its like debating with a religious fanatic...

 

[MS]

Florida was also a generational turnaround. Every year most teams are trying to do what Florida did but there's basically only one example of a team succeeding like they did from the position they were in since the salary cap arrived - them.

It's kind of funny that people will talk about draft picks like they're magic beans but point to generational management turnarounds as a model. It's literally more common to draft a McDavid tier player than experience what Florida did from the position they were in.

We did it in 2008.

Calgary did it the past few years until their best players wanted out.

Minnesota has done it recently.

 

[mriswith]

We did it in 2008.

Calgary did it the past few years until their best players wanted out.

Minnesota has done it recently.

No comment on 2008 since I wasn't following this closely back then.

Calgary and Minnesota are the poster boys for permanent mediocrity over the last 15 years. They're literally the model of what to avoid.

 

[credulous]

We did it in 2008.

Calgary did it the past few years until their best players wanted out.

Minnesota has done it recently.

in 2008 vancouver signed demitra, sundin and johnson and let naslund, morrison and linden walk. those were the only real roster changes. other than that all the improvement came from career seasons for bieksa and burrows and more opportunity for high picks like edler, raymond, kesler and the sedins. please explain how the current team is in a position to emulate that?

 

[arttk]

We did it in 2008.

Calgary did it the past few years until their best players wanted out.

Minnesota has done it recently.

Dallas doing it now too

 

[Vector]

Winnipeg jets looked like a total train-wreck last year. Coach quit on the team. Reports of having the worst lockerroom in the NHL. Panic-hired Bowness after Trotz turned them down. He strips Wheeler of his captaincy. Made, virtually, no roster changes. Everyone prepared for them to crash and burn. Instead they lead their division and are 1st in the conference in points percentage.

Are the Canucks a few moves away from leading their division? No. The Jets made the playoffs the four previous seasons so they had a track record of success. Management will have to do a lot of heavy lifting over the next 10 months to get this team competitive.

Also, this is the Brock Boeser thread.

 

[Ernie]

in 2008 vancouver signed demitra, sundin and johnson and let naslund, morrison and linden walk. those were the only real roster changes. other than that all the improvement came from career seasons for bieksa and burrows and more opportunity for high picks like edler, raymond, kesler and the sedins. please explain how the current team is in a position to emulate that?

Not all changes happened in that one offseason. It was a progression from the WCE era to the Sedins / Luongo era in the span of a few seasons. Subtractions included Bertuzzi, Cloutier and Jovonoski, and additions were Mitchell, Ehrhoff, Samuelson and eventually Malhotra. Lots of internal growth as well from Kesler, Bieksa, Burrows and Edler (and obviously the Sedins). But if you look at the transition over 5 years it rolled from one contending team to another without a major rebuild.

San Jose is another good example - they had about a decade and a half with a bunch of mini-retools that kept them competitive for pretty much the entire stretch.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Not all changes happened in that one offseason. It was a progression from the WCE era to the Sedins / Luongo era in the span of a few seasons. Subtractions included Bertuzzi, Cloutier and Jovonoski, and additions were Mitchell, Ehrhoff, Samuelson and eventually Malhotra. Lots of internal growth as well from Kesler, Bieksa, Burrows and Edler (and obviously the Sedins). But if you look at the transition over 5 years it rolled from one contending team to another without a major rebuild.

San Jose is another good example - they had about a decade and a half with a bunch of mini-retools that kept them competitive for pretty much the entire stretch.

I think one thing people seem to miss is that the statistical prime of players now is much younger than back in the WCE / Sharks era.

I dont see who we transition this team to, from the current core. Podkolzin and Rathbone and Höglander?

 

[Ernie]

I think one thing people seem to miss is that the statistical prime of players now is much younger than back in the WCE / Sharks era.

I dont see who we transition this team to, from the current core. Podkolzin and Rathbone and Höglander?

Podkolzin and Hoglander for sure.

This Canucks group is not that old and it should be remembered that Edler, Bieksa, Burrows etc were not the result of drafting high.

Hell, Bieksa and Burrows were just establishing themselves in the AHL at the age that Rathbone is now. The Sedins were 3rd line players at the age Pettersson is now.

That said, a whole lot of things would have to go right for the same result to happen now and all the bad salary is going to drag the team down.

The Canucks desperately need to move salary, play the kids, and rebuild their talent stream. More Bears and Kuzmenkos, less Horvats and Millers. If they fail, then so be it, but this current group of players is not going to be a contender.

 

[im gangster]

@M2Beezy

Brock Boeser

 

[im gangster]

Baby Jesus.

 

[DL44]

Where are people on Boeser right now?
Does the 'Hold on to him' camp exist?

Trade camp.... is he in cap dump territory, or does he hold any value/expectation of tangible return?

 

[racerjoe]

Where are people on Boeser right now?
Does the 'Hold on to him' camp exist?

Trade camp.... is he in cap dump territory, or does he hold any value/expectation of tangible return?

Even Brock thinks is best to move on and look for a change of scenery.

 

[Gstank]

I dont see a spot for Boeser and his contract in the future, but he will have a successful NHL career and will be a middling player for a majority of it.

I dont think he has negative value and I dont think it would be too hard to get a 2nd or a 3rd for him. The biggest knock on him is his lack of foot speed and that he isnt a play driver

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Where are people on Boeser right now?
Does the 'Hold on to him' camp exist?

Trade camp.... is he in cap dump territory, or does he hold any value/expectation of tangible return?

Hold on to him so he can regain value. Then move him.

We are not going anywhere any time soon.

 

[sting101]

Where are people on Boeser right now?
Does the 'Hold on to him' camp exist?

Trade camp.... is he in cap dump territory, or does he hold any value/expectation of tangible return?

Havent changed my opinion on this. Brock has never shown an ability to step up his game when the pace goes up and the intensity of puck battles ramps. He spends way too many games chasing the play and hindering his linemates with poor defense and risky plays that dont work

I like the person and would build him back to a better asset..... i wouldn't force a move and believe its nonsense we can't get a couple decent picks at minimum

When we can't afford to keep him you replace him from within (Hoglander Lekkerimaki Podkolzin Klimovich) he's a luxury item not a vital piece of our core

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Hold on to him so he can regain value. Then move him.

We are not going anywhere any time soon.

Can he even "regain value"? I feel like his value will have nowhere to go but down. Right now there is still a little bit of the aura of a high pedigree, former Calder finalist and not-too-long-ago productive player. Given more time, more and more of the rest of the league will catch on that he is too slow to be productive, but cannot play any role other than 1-way sniper.
If we can trade him for nothing right now, we should do it. Very soon (if it hasn't happened already), we will have to attach assets to dump him.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Can he even "regain value"? I feel like his value will have nowhere to go but down. Right now there is still a little bit of the aura of a high pedigree, former Calder finalist and not-too-long-ago productive player. Given more time, more and more of the rest of the league will catch on that he is too slow to be productive, but cannot play any role other than 1-way sniper.
If we can trade him for nothing right now, we should do it. Very soon (if it hasn't happened already), we will have to attach assets to dump him.

Whats the rush?

We are not going anywhere any time soon.

I doubt he just forgot how to play a 2way game and score goals. Just like I doubt JT Miller forgot how to play hockey.

They will both regress to their means with time.