Value of: Brett Pesce

[bobc222]

Would a Seguin (some difference retained, real dollars is less than cap) for a Pesce (assume extension) be workable?

What's the latest read on Seguin? His numbers seem to have fallen off some, but I can't imagine he's vastly different from 3-4 years ago, just haven't watched him enough. Maybe he's taken a backseat to the kids?

 

[Frozen Failure]

What's the latest read on Seguin? His numbers seem to have fallen off some, but I can't imagine he's vastly different from 3-4 years ago, just haven't watched him enough. Maybe he's taken a backseat to the kids?

Never really got his step back after the Achilles injury, still plays but I feel like he's lost a bit of focus and chemistry with anyone he plays with. The bigger issue is his NMC, which, I dunno, he might not waive if it won't be honored after being traded.

Dunno, just spitballing things. It is not like Carolina is a basement dweller like Anaheim, and this would be more of a change of scenery/filling gaps/hockey world trade.

 

[Darren McCord]

Canes fans are in disagreement about how important Pesce is. I’m one of those that thinks he’s pretty crucial and makes whoever he plays with look good defensively, and while they’ll replace him with someone if they have to it’s going to be a downgrade - which could be the actual closing of our window since we’re such a defense first team. Chatfield is somehow being considered by some of the fans as a viable replacement. He does not have the look of a viable replacement to this point. He’s a quality third pair guy.

So yes, trading Pesce for Michkov does not seem to be a remotely sensible move for the Canes at this point. It would be sabotaging next season unless Pesce somehow being replaced by an upgrade that isn’t killing the cap.

this is what i was getting at. Michkov obviously would be amazing for the canes in 3 years but they seem like a win now team.

Like is crazy to me that teams like the Canes and Edm barely trade picks. Look at vegas trading everything it can to push them over the top.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

this is what i was getting at. Michkov obviously would be amazing for the canes in 3 years but they seem like a win now team.

Like is crazy to me that teams like the Canes and Edm barely trade picks. Look at vegas trading everything it can to push them over the top.

Carolina essentially traded two 1st round picks in the past 3 years and a number of prospects/young players recently.

Nic Roy, Eetu Luostarinen, Chase Priskie --> Haula--> Trocheck
1st and 3rd round pick --> Kotkaniemi
Lorentz, Makiniemi, 3rd --> Burns
1st round pick --> Skjei

They also reportedly were heavily going after Tkachuk and Meier in the past year.

 

[Darren McCord]

Carolina essentially traded two 1st round picks in the past 3 years and a number of prospects/young players recently.

Nic Roy, Eetu Luostarinen, Chase Priskie --> Haula--> Trocheck
1st and 3rd round pick --> Kotkaniemi
Lorentz, Makiniemi, 3rd --> Burns
1st round pick --> Skjei

They also reportedly were heavily going after Tkachuk and Meier in the past year.

Carolina had 9 picks in 2023
Carolina had 7 picks in 2022
Carolina had 13 picks in 2021 (They had 3 2nd rounders)
Carolina had 8 picks in 2020
Carolina had 12 picks in 2019

Carolina has 49 picks in 5 years
Vegas has 31 in the same 5 years

They could have easily afforded Barbashev. They could have put up more and got Meier. They are cheap and that is why they keep striking out.

Kotkaniemi was a bad trade and petty.
Burns was dirt cheap cause San Jose wanted to dump him

 

[Chan790]

Carolina has 49 picks in 5 years
Vegas has 31 in the same 5 years

Carolina's ownership has a "perpetual contender" philosophy driven by cost-containment and a draft strategy of gambling by taking high ceiling guys even when they're boom-or-bust, raw with long development curves, or likely to take longer to get to the NHL. They're never going to approach the draft like Vegas because it doesn't fit how they run the organization.

They could have easily afforded Barbashev.

Hindsight is 20/20. Vegas took the chance and it worked out. Good for them.

They could have put up more and got Meier.

We offered more, openly, than NJ paid. Waddell had a public meltdown about how much less NJ paid than we offered. Maier was never coming to us, we were used to maximize NJ's offer. He went where he wanted to be traded.

They are cheap and that is why they keep striking out.

Perhaps.

Kotkaniemi was a bad trade and petty.

I don't think people noticed how good Kotkaniemi was for us the second half of this season or what a steal he already is. Petty? Maybe. Maybe not. We redo that QO and subsequent contract easily with hindsight.

Burns was dirt cheap cause San Jose wanted to dump him

...and we wanted him. Is buying low on undervalued assets a bad thing now? Are we supposed to say "No! We insist on paying more than you're asking because you're asking for too little?"

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Carolina had 9 picks in 2023
Carolina had 7 picks in 2022
Carolina had 13 picks in 2021 (They had 3 2nd rounders)
Carolina had 8 picks in 2020
Carolina had 12 picks in 2019

Carolina has 49 picks in 5 years
Vegas has 31 in the same 5 years

They could have easily afforded Barbashev. They could have put up more and got Meier. They are cheap and that is why they keep striking out.

Kotkaniemi was a bad trade and petty.
Burns was dirt cheap cause San Jose wanted to dump him

The number of picks isn't overly relevant. 27 of the 49 were 4th-7th round picks. Late round picks are meaningless fodder without much value and don't get any impact players in return. It's 1st and 2nd round picks that hold value. Secondly, they got a number of picks from trading down during the draft, which again isn't overly relevant in this discussion.

Facts are that Carolina traded 2 1st round picks since 2020. It's not debatable, it's fact.

I do agree they tend to be more frugal with picks, but your statement that they "Barely trade picks" when they've traded 2 first round picks since 2020 seems like a weird take.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

It's hard to square "they are cheap" with:

- Their initial stamp on the franchise was the Hamilton trade, which was controversial for how much they paid then and still now probably.

- Skjei for a 1st only looks like a bargain in hindsight. At the time, he was an NYR whipping boy.

- Kotkaniemi, a non-traditional swap, was a low risk gamble, but not a no brainer at that asset cost.

- The interest in Meier was legit by all reports, with Friedman saying during the process that “… I’ve heard they’ve made a very good offer.” (Link).

By words and actions, they've been philosophically opposed to high-priced rentals up to this point. Cheap isn't the right word for that. If you disagree with that approach, wrong or arrogant is more fitting.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

It's hard to square "they are cheap" with:

- Their initial stamp on the franchise was the Hamilton trade, which was controversial for how much they paid then and still now probably.

- Skjei for a 1st only looks like a bargain in hindsight. At the time, he was an NYR whipping boy.

- Kotkaniemi, a non-traditional swap, was a low risk gamble, but not a no brainer at that asset cost.

- The interest in Meier was legit by all reports, with Friedman saying during the process that “… I’ve heard they’ve made a very good offer.” (Link).

By words and actions, they've been philosophically opposed to high-priced rentals up to this point. Cheap isn't the right word for that. If you disagree with that approach, wrong or arrogant is more fitting.

I thought Meier would have been a perfect fit in Carolina, was sad it didn't get done. 2 wingers with huge cap hits would have been hard to swallow, but he brings all the things I think Carolina would like to add.

With the Slavin and Pesce sweetheart deals close to being over, should be interesting decisions ahead. I am guessing Aho gets a nice raise but Teuvo walks?

 

[Svechhammer]

I thought Meier would have been a perfect fit in Carolina, was sad it didn't get done. 2 wingers with huge cap hits would have been hard to swallow, but he brings all the things I think Carolina would like to add.

With the Slavin and Pesce sweetheart deals close to being over, should be interesting decisions ahead. I am guessing Aho gets a nice raise but Teuvo walks?

The Canes would have loved to have had Meier but we weren't about to pay the asking price of Jarvis and Necas plus picks and/or prospects to get him. We had Jarvis+ picks and prospects on the table but they wanted a stupid price and we walked away.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

The Canes would have loved to have had Meier but we weren't about to pay the asking price of Jarvis and Necas plus picks and/or prospects to get him. We had Jarvis+ picks and prospects on the table but they wanted a stupid price and we walked away.

I do not believe any rumour where the price was that high, especially considering what NJ eventually gave up.

 

[Svechhammer]

I do not believe any rumour where the price was that high, especially considering what NJ eventually gave up.

The person who told me that price is someone who was very much in a position to know firsthand what that counteroffer from SJ truly was.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

The person who told me that price is someone who was very much in a position to know firsthand what that counteroffer from SJ truly was.

No offence, but I don't believe you. Necas alone would be a lateral move. Your reported move sounds more like a saving face type rumour.

 

[Chrispy]

I do not believe any rumour where the price was that high, especially considering what NJ eventually gave up.

I don't know what SJ countered with, but Seravelli stated after the trade deadline that he felt Carolina's offer was better than NJ's and SJ went with the Devils offer anyway.

There was mention that Jarvis was worried about being dealt at the deadline, so I wouldn't be shocked if Jarvis+ was the counter by SJ.

The comment is around the 20-21 minute mark of this podcast and also discusses the fact that Carolina saw one player on the market who would be a big difference maker (Meier), made a big offer for him, and when they missed felt there wasn't another major player on the market who would make a big difference.



Also interesting that he quotes Dundon saying "The playoffs are four series of 7 coin flips" given Carolina was swept in 4 one goal games with 2 OT games that could have easily gone the other way.

 

[SlavinAway]

What's a realistic extension for Pesce in terms of AAV? Is he going to look for 6.25M, in that Ekholm / Sanheim range?

I would say that's the minimum you'd be looking at. Pesce is better than Severson who just signed for 8x6.25.

 

[McSuper]

There is no way RNH is going anywhere, even to a nice place like Carolina. He signed here long term and controls his destiny with a full NMC. Ain't happenin' gang

Read everything I said it will fill you in. I said the only way I would think of asking RNH to waive his NTC is for a top pairing RD and even then I doubt Holland would ask him.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

What's a realistic extension for Pesce in terms of AAV? Is he going to look for 6.25M, in that Ekholm / Sanheim range?

He just hired the same agent as Severson, whom Pesce is better than.

If you want scoring wingers, Canucks have them in spades for a guy like Pesce. In fact Canucks can give you 2 young ones in Garland and Hoglander for services of Pesce

C’mon now, you know those two players don’t get you Pesce.

 

[LakeLivin]

No offence, but I don't believe you. Necas alone would be a lateral move. Your reported move sounds more like a saving face type rumour.

Relationships may have also played into the negotiations.

It's already been posted that Seravalli reported that he believed the Canes offer for Meier was better than what SJ accepted from NJ. Speculation is that Meier prefered NJ but it's hard to guess how much that might have figured into the Sharks decision. I think a more likely factor is the relationships between the brass at SJ and NJ.

SJ Director of Player Personnel Scott Fitzgerald is NJ GM Tom Fitzgerald's brother. In addition, SJ GM Mike Grier worked under Tom in Jersey. There were reports that SJ was giving NJ the right of last refusal on a Meier trade. If so, the Canes only realistic chance at Meier was an overpay big enough that NJ wouldn't come close to matching. SJ essentially using Carolina as a stalking horse seems like a very real possibility given Waddell's response when the trade with NJ went down.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Does it have to be nefarious in some way? San Jose may not have valued a piece like say Scott Morrow the way another club would. Seravalli may have been looking at prospect rankings just like us when he made that statement.

 

[LakeLivin]

Does it have to be nefarious in some way? San Jose may not have valued a piece like say Scott Morrow the way another club would. Seravalli may have been looking at prospect rankings just like us when he made that statement.

No. But the rumors about preferential treatment towards NJ were out there even before the deal was finalized. And the personal ties between the NJ and SJ front offices are unusually strong. And Waddell was really pissed at something after the deal was announced (no such reaction after we didn't connect on Tkachuk). And Svechhammer has told us that he got feedback from a Canes insider.

Occam's razor and all that . . .

 

[Ace]

I think Pesce is exactly what the Sabres need if they want to make the POs.

That said I don't know much about their players or their value.

How is Jokiharu's skating? what does he do well/badly?

Joker played better under Krueger (the only person to do so) because he wanted a commitment to defending. Granato has them playing fast, loose and forward. He isn’t a fit for the chaos. But he probably is for structure.

 

[Stickpucker]

I'd rather get another pick from the Sabres than Joker at this point.

All of their other pieces are too valuable.

What is the best forward the Sabres would offer for Pesce in a 1 for 1 swap?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I'd rather get another pick from the Sabres than Joker at this point.

All of their other pieces are too valuable.

What is the best forward the Sabres would offer for Pesce in a 1 for 1 swap?

Maybe Mittelstadt, but if they don't want to pay Pesce much more then they probably don't want to pay Mittelstadt's extension next summer either. So after that I'd say Krebs, as a more cost-controlled player with upside.

 

[Homesick]

Is this over now that the first round is done?

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

The Leafs should be all over Pesce. Buyout Brodie, let Gio retire if it’s true he’s considering retirement.

Carolina would likely want Nylander though.