Player Discussion: Brayden Point - Part 3

[LightningStrikes]

Point gave us a good option in the bumper spot that we didn't really have due to his shot accuracy, but I would say that he benefited from Kucherov far more than the other way around.

And let's recall - Point pretty much disappeared after January. February on he was pretty ****ing pedestrian.

He did have an hip injury though. It’s not been disclosed when it actually occurred but he had treatment during the off-season.

 

[DFC]

Point gave us a good option in the bumper spot that we didn't really have due to his shot accuracy, but I would say that he benefited from Kucherov far more than the other way around.

And let's recall - Point pretty much disappeared after January. February on he was pretty ****ing pedestrian.

No one doubts Point benefited from Kuch more than the other way around. But it was definitely not a one-sided thing.

Point's not going to get 10m or anything. But if he signs for something in the 7s, are we really thinking that's a bad contract?

 

[DFC]

He did have an hip injury though. It’s not been disclosed when it actually occurred but he had treatment during the off-season.

It's also the first time we've seen him disappear, or play below his standard. Everybody has those stretches. His was just recent.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Point's not going to get 10m or anything. But if he signs for something in the 7s, are we really thinking that's a bad contract?

I dont think so. I think people just want him in and if he signed today in the 7s, people would be happy.

 

[Todd1a]

He did have an hip injury though. It’s not been disclosed when it actually occurred but he had treatment during the off-season.

Did he have hip surgery? Do we know if he was signed if he could play now?

 

[DFC]

I dont think so. I think people just want him in and if he signed today in the 7s, people would be happy.

Epic tax threads.

 

[LightningStrikes]

Did he have hip surgery? Do we know if he was signed if he could play now?

That’s all info we got at the time:

 

[God King Fudge]

Kucherov got a big bump from Point too. Point is the one different factor for him, and he goes off for 128 points. I think that can be used as much to Point's advantage as it can be used to his detriment. You also have to consider Point's sophomore season, which was very impressive when you take into account how limited his PP time was. The kid put up 50 ES points without Kucherov. 57 with him.

Biggest of all, he has one more goal than Steven Stamkos in the past two years combined. That's not nothing.

If we bridge him, it's not a traditional bridge. It's not a "Let's see what you can do," bridge. Because Point has already had a bigger season than anybody signed to a bridge deal. It's a "This is all we can afford," bridge. So if he wants a bit of money, I have a hard time holding it against him.

You're completely discounting any kind of player progression in this scenario. "Well Point was on his line and he scored 128 but he wasn't there last season so the case is solved". Kuch still put up 100 points the season before and then the entire team turned into a monster.

I'm not debating that Kucherov benefitted from someone like Point on his line, but I think it's MUCH more likely that Kucherov had more to do with Point's 26 point increase vs the other way around.

I'm not saying this to knock Point down. I want the kid on the team, but if he gets a bridge, it absolutely is a "Let's see what you can do" bridge because it has to be. You can't jump from 66 points to 92 points and say "Well, this guy is a 90+ point guy from now on".

I want him to maintain that level through a bridge, and a bridge is not 8+ million dollars lmao.

 

[DFC]

You're completely discounting any kind of player progression in this scenario. "Well Point was on his line and he scored 128 but he wasn't there last season so the case is solved". Kuch still put up 100 points the season before and then the entire team turned into a monster.

You're using that to discount Point's progression. You're saying Point's progression might not have been real because Kuch's was SO real. I don't know. I think having that option in the slot boosted Kucherov's PP production, and Kucherov's 5v5 numbers jumped the minute he was put on Point's line, and he wound up beating last year's total by 16. Between the two of them, Kucherov's numbers were took the bigger jump, and a jump he hasn't had since his rookie-to-sophomore season.

I'm not debating that Kucherov benefitted from someone like Point on his line, but I think it's MUCH more likely that Kucherov had more to do with Point's 26 point increase vs the other way around.

I agree with everything except the use of "MUCH." I think Point benefited more from Kucherov than Kucherov did from Point. But it's hard to believe it's a one way street when Kucherov's the one who got the bigger bump over last season, and when he didn't really get going until he was paired with Point.

I'm not saying this to knock Point down. I want the kid on the team, but if he gets a bridge, it absolutely is a "Let's see what you can do" bridge because it has to be. You can't jump from 66 points to 92 points and say "Well, this guy is a 90+ point guy from now on".

When the guy's 22? You kind of can. And besides, nobody's suggesting Point gets paid like a 90 point player out of this. Those guys make a lot more money than we're talking here. But Point also shouldn't be paid like a 50 point player, or even a 60 point player.

He scored 32 goals as a sophomore with very little superstar support.

I want him to maintain that level through a bridge, and a bridge is not 8+ million dollars lmao.

I think he comes in under 8. But still, this isn't the type of scenario where bridges are normally used, so normal rules don't apply. Nobody with a season like Point's has ever been bridged. So, if we bridge him, it's likely to be the richest bridge deal ever, and it should be. The guy has back-to-back 30 goal seasons, even if people suddenly want to pretend he didn't score 41 last season.

I mean, are we really going to remove him from the PP? Because that's where most of his point jump came. Somehow I don't see him moving to PP2 when he's a big part of why PP1 is so lethal. Given that he's scored 50+ 5v5 points in two straight years, it's hard then to imagine him dropping below 70, or even 80, if scoring trends continue, and if our PP remains anywhere close to as good as it was last year.

 

[BeingTheThunder]

I think he comes in under 8. But still, this isn't the type of scenario where bridges are normally used, so normal rules don't apply. Nobody with a season like Point's has ever been bridged. So, if we bridge him, it's likely to be the richest bridge deal ever, and it should be. The guy has back-to-back 30 goal seasons, even if people suddenly want to pretend he didn't score 41 last season.

It's also got to be understood that a bridge... one under 8 is not just what's hoped for, it's what is required. If for no other reason than WE DON'T HAVE THE CAP to do anything more. Period. It's not rocket science. I mean, I don't think $5.7 Million AAV on a bridge is realistic but for someone that's certain to get paid major bucks on his next deal, anything in the $6.5-$7 Million AAV is MORE THAN FAIR. Yes, even for a guy that's scored more than 90 points once and more than 60 3 times. It's not only fair but there is not much more than that we can do for him now. If he wants much more than that, he's just going to have to wait.

 

[The Macho King]

I don't think it's complicated. Yes Kucherov's production improved, but he improved from 100 (and prior to that another PPG+ season), and he did it each seasons with tons of different linemates (basically no one in 2017, Stamkos for most of 18, and Point in 19). He has four top 5 point finishes, and stretches of absolutely absurd production in all of those periods that makes his 128 - while likely a career high and an outlier - one that there is at least past performance to show that it wasn't impossible. On the other hand, Point went from 66 to 92? That's a huge jump, and there isn't a whole lot to base that jump off of.

Point at 8 years right now is a huuuuge risk, because maybe he's a 90 point player? Maybe he's a guy that benefited from the right circumstances? Maybe it's somewhere in between?

Does anyone expect another 90+ point season from Point this year honestly? I ask because I honestly don't. I'd be happy with PPG. But Kucherov - I don't care if he's playing with Paquette - I'm expecting 100.

 

[Sky04]

You're using that to discount Point's progression. You're saying Point's progression might not have been real because Kuch's was SO real. I don't know. I think having that option in the slot boosted Kucherov's PP production, and Kucherov's 5v5 numbers jumped the minute he was put on Point's line, and he wound up beating last year's total by 16. Between the two of them, Kucherov's numbers were took the bigger jump, and a jump he hasn't had since his rookie-to-sophomore season.

Although typical of fan-bases to start discrediting their players before a new contract, some of these are getting way out of hand. Like how Marner was hands down the leafs MVP 6 months ago to being 3rd best on the team.

Just because most of our RFA's have been cheaply bridged doesn't mean you take that approach into to every player, non of those guys including Kucherov came off a 90+ point season. I would argue that one of our biggest jump from being a "top team in the league" to a "top team all time" was because we virtually added a 90+ point center who drives his own line for NOTHING. The effect of that ripples down the lineup as Stamkos who's a #1 center on most teams was playing against secondary pairings, instead of having a 50 point 2nd line center in Johnson if Point wasn't on the team, we had a 98 point 2nd line center in Stamkos.

Point drives every line he's on, that versatility makes him more valuable than a guy like Stamkos who needs to be in perfect positions to succeed. Imagine how much worse our PP would be without the slot option Point provides, the Stamkos - Kucherov play is beyond predictable without another threat.

 

[Sky04]

I don't think it's complicated. Yes Kucherov's production improved, but he improved from 100 (and prior to that another PPG+ season), and he did it each seasons with tons of different linemates (basically no one in 2017, Stamkos for most of 18, and Point in 19). He has four top 5 point finishes, and stretches of absolutely absurd production in all of those periods that makes his 128 - while likely a career high and an outlier - one that there is at least past performance to show that it wasn't impossible. On the other hand, Point went from 66 to 92? That's a huge jump, and there isn't a whole lot to base that jump off of.

Point at 8 years right now is a huuuuge risk, because maybe he's a 90 point player? Maybe he's a guy that benefited from the right circumstances? Maybe it's somewhere in between?

Does anyone expect another 90+ point season from Point this year honestly? I ask because I honestly don't. I'd be happy with PPG. But Kucherov - I don't care if he's playing with Paquette - I'm expecting 100.

Point's not getting anymore than Kucherov, if his number for 8 years is between 8-9m and you have a PPG two way center for the duration then that's already great value in today's market, especially given that you know Hedman, Kucherov and Stamkos are also there for most of that term.

 

[God King Fudge]

You're using that to discount Point's progression. You're saying Point's progression might not have been real because Kuch's was SO real. I don't know. I think having that option in the slot boosted Kucherov's PP production, and Kucherov's 5v5 numbers jumped the minute he was put on Point's line, and he wound up beating last year's total by 16. Between the two of them, Kucherov's numbers were took the bigger jump, and a jump he hasn't had since his rookie-to-sophomore season.



I agree with everything except the use of "MUCH." I think Point benefited more from Kucherov than Kucherov did from Point. But it's hard to believe it's a one way street when Kucherov's the one who got the bigger bump over last season, and when he didn't really get going until he was paired with Point.



When the guy's 22? You kind of can. And besides, nobody's suggesting Point gets paid like a 90 point player out of this. Those guys make a lot more money than we're talking here. But Point also shouldn't be paid like a 50 point player, or even a 60 point player.

He scored 32 goals as a sophomore with very little superstar support.



I think he comes in under 8. But still, this isn't the type of scenario where bridges are normally used, so normal rules don't apply. Nobody with a season like Point's has ever been bridged. So, if we bridge him, it's likely to be the richest bridge deal ever, and it should be. The guy has back-to-back 30 goal seasons, even if people suddenly want to pretend he didn't score 41 last season.

I mean, are we really going to remove him from the PP? Because that's where most of his point jump came. Somehow I don't see him moving to PP2 when he's a big part of why PP1 is so lethal. Given that he's scored 50+ 5v5 points in two straight years, it's hard then to imagine him dropping below 70, or even 80, if scoring trends continue, and if our PP remains anywhere close to as good as it was last year.

I stopped right there because it's absolutely false. I'm simply saying that it's very likely Kucherov was a bigger factor in Point's numbers last season than the other way around and that I want Point to be a 90 point player for more than one season before we start giving out record bridge deals. If Point wants a payday, he needs to be locked in for the long term. The very essence of a bridge deal is that it's a "prove it" contract.

I'm completely happy signing Point to a big money contract, but he's gotta show he's not Jonathan Cheechoo. Repeat your success, take your payday.

 

[Beyonder91]

Point spent 3/4 of his ice time playing with Kucherov and finished 36 points behind him! Great player but very hard to consider him a true 90+ point player YET.
Marner, for example, led his team in points.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I dont think the fact that he played with Kuch matters in this negotiation. On either side to be honest. I think 2 things are at play here:

1. Point has had 2 very productive seasons in the NHL and he is going to talk about how valuable he has been to our team. Because its true he has been very valuable to the success of the team in the last 2 years. His point totals and his value to the team is more than enough to help Point in his negotiations.

2. The fact that we have bridged our best players before and that this is how they have done things since this staff/ownership got here.

These two factors are at odds and this is why we havent come to an agreement. Something will have to give and I dont think it will be JBB because of maybe the biggest factor that in all of this (and the leafs ignored) is the fact that he is an RFA. His biggest leverage he decided not to use it. I think the two sides have all the respect in the world for each other and I think there is a mutual understanding of what the two things I stated above. I mean I think JBB will up his offer but I dont think it will be significant amount. I think winning is what is important to him and I think he is hoping to be able to keep some money available for the deadline if we need it.

 

[DFC]

It's also got to be understood that a bridge... one under 8 is not just what's hoped for, it's what is required. If for no other reason than WE DON'T HAVE THE CAP to do anything more. Period. It's not rocket science. I mean, I don't think $5.7 Million AAV on a bridge is realistic but for someone that's certain to get paid major bucks on his next deal, anything in the $6.5-$7 Million AAV is MORE THAN FAIR. Yes, even for a guy that's scored more than 90 points once and more than 60 3 times. It's not only fair but there is not much more than that we can do for him now. If he wants much more than that, he's just going to have to wait.

I agree that we can't do anything more, and I agree that that's the reason Point will take less than he deserves. 6.5 - 7 isn't really more than fair though. I don't blame the guy for trying to get more when he's about to say players a tier below him making as much or more money.

The reason why 90 point players don't get bridged is because they usually won't accept a bridge deal. So we're looking at being the first team to do it. And that's all fine and good, but let's not pretend like the 90 point season didn't happen to justify paying him like a 60-70 point player. Let's call it what it is: We have no money for him.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

i have zero issues with point new contract whatever it is myself...... if we go higher then others ill be mad get over it.... to me the question isnt is he a 90 point guy is he simply one of top 15 guys in nhl moving forward at a ppg pace? i say he has proved to me he is that guy......


i am saying this in this way cause am unsure of kucherov hitting crazy numbers or point but will they healthy put over a ppg YES absolutely will stamkos do same YES they are those guys that is why if he gets hedman stamkos kucherov money i wont go ballistic dont think id give him those numbers but its a business the question is to me is brayden point one of our top superstars moving forward YES cause he showed me he can score at elite level and also that he can be the shut down role if we need that at times.... he is gifted to be able to do both and a damned good center argue wise wayyy more valuable in that equation then stammer... we can move on without him i dont want to but am unsure i would let him win and glad jbb seems to be holding tight in this..... what has happened elsewhere is truly disturbing for a team that wants to be at the top and stay there.... one guy cant hold us over the barrel .... ida probably had him signed already at 7.8 months ago but thats me i like that we are playing hardball hes smarter to take the bridge imho till seattle is here new tv deals are done and we are past any lockout he will get a lot more if performs after that stretch to make up for any less he took for these 3 years imho

 

[Picklepete]

What's the average % increase of AAV from a bridge RFA deal to a UFA deal?

If Bolts pay Point 7-8M on a bridge, how much would they have to pony up on the UFA deal?

If they want Point now for 8 yr instead of bridge deal, after marner, point isn't taking anything less than 9 million yr.

 

[Todd1a]

His two only options really that I would offer point! option # 1 - 8 years 8.45 avv per season. option # 2 - 3 years 6.5 avv per season. take one of the deals point and get to camp already.

 

[Byrddog]

The deal needs to get done to get him to camp. Some of you guys promoting that he road Kuch to 90 points and 40 goals might want to consider this. There are scads of players in the league that can not finish a Happy Meal. You put the puck on points stick he can and does finish. And any player on a line with him or Kuch are better for it so its a mute point. If BB does not pay the guy this week I fully expect he is going to be a holdout well into the season. What good does that do him or the team??????? I do not like the idea of a bridge because if he does in fact repeat his 90 point 40 goal season twice he will then break the bank and be a UFA. Pay the guy now if he does backslide buy him out or trade him. It is really that simple. I do not believe he will backslide now injury could be a factor but people get there leg broke all the time ask Stammer. With what happened in Toronto it only strengthened Points agents hand.

 

[Todd1a]

The deal needs to get done to get him to camp. Some of you guys promoting that he road Kuch to 90 points and 40 goals might want to consider this. There are scads of players in the league that can not finish a Happy Meal. You put the puck on points stick he can and does finish. And any player on a line with him or Kuch are better for it so its a mute point. If BB does not pay the guy this week I fully expect he is going to be a holdout well into the season. What good does that do him or the team??????? I do not like the idea of a bridge because if he does in fact repeat his 90 point 40 goal season twice he will then break the bank and be a UFA. Pay the guy now if he does backslide buy him out or trade him. It is really that simple. I do not believe he will backslide now injury could be a factor but people get there leg broke all the time ask Stammer. With what happened in Toronto it only strengthened Points agents hand.

I’m for giving the guy a 8 year deal but we don’t have 9.5 million per year in cap space to give him! And brisebois is not giving him a 5 year deal to walk him right to Ufa like stamkos almost did. So the 3 year deal is really our only option.

 

[BeingTheThunder]

If they want Point now for 8 yr instead of bridge deal, after marner, point isn't taking anything less than 9 million yr.

That's why he isn't getting an 8-year deal. We DON'T have the cap room to accommodate that kind of a deal. Period. SO a bridge it is. Aho got, what? $8.5 Million? But that was for 5 years and not 3. Again, on a 3-year deal, I think $6.5-$7 Million is more than fair. As Todd has pointed out over and over again, it'll be a record-setting bridge deal.

 

[Picklepete]

That's why he isn't getting an 8-year deal. We DON'T have the cap room to accommodate that kind of a deal. Period. SO a bridge it is. Aho got, what? $8.5 Million? But that was for 5 years and not 3. Again, on a 3-year deal, I think $6.5-$7 Million is more than fair. As Todd has pointed out over and over again, it'll be a record-setting bridge deal.

The fact of the matter is there's more high-level young Talent out there now producing and they want to be paid what they're worth market value that's all..

how many of you in your jobs if you felt you were underpaid would want fair value ? come on quit letting your team Allegiance cloud your minds.

 

[CupsOverCash]

The fact of the matter is there's more high-level young Talent out there now producing and they want to be paid what they're worth market value that's all..

how many of you in your jobs if you felt you were underpaid would want fair value ? come on quit letting your team Allegiance cloud your minds.

Ok lets just take the invisible money from the cap space we have and give him 10 mil huh?