Player Discussion: Brayden Point - Part 3

[DFC]

kucherov was making 4.77 avv in the 2017-18 season

Which isn't far off the cap percentage after a very similar season.

 

[DFC]

Was Point our leading scorer last year? Kucherov was 3rd in scoring his second season then led the team his 3rd year of his ELC. Point was 3rd the last two seasons. Point scored more last year than Kucherov did in the year he lead the team but the team was much better this past year and scored 95 more goals then the 15-16 team. Point should get more than Kucherov did because the cap has gone up since the Kucherov bridge. He shouldn't get a ton more because he scored more than Kucherov his 3rd year, Kucherov dragged that team to game 7 of the ECF. He did a hell of a lot more with less than Point did this year.

He was 12th in league scoring compared to Kucherov's 21st. By comparison, that year, 2016, Vlad Taresenko and Anze Kopitar were tied for 12th, and Taresenko signed before the season started, after his first 70 point year the season before, for $7.5m. The deal was long-term, but that's under a $71.4m cap.

 

[LightningStrikes]

That's where JBB gets the edge in term of mere negotiations too. If you take into account Point's s%, him having 5 on 5 time with the best RW in the league and reigning MVP and you add up he was playing on the best PP of the league, there are too many external factors that could have boosted his points production. That's why a one year 92 season sample cannot be judged as normal trend.

3 years, 6.25M AAV

But Point's camp will lean hard on his 92 point season. Yes, he plays with a lot of talent but said talent gets paid the big bucks. Maybe not in comparison to league-wide comparables but Kucherov, Stamkos and Hedman are the three highest paid players on the team (Vasi aside). We can't give him some low cap hit contract and just tell him "you were only that good because of all the talent on the team". That's not how that works. Kucherov put up big numbers because of 91, 21 and 77. Stamkos put up big numbers because of 86, 21 and 77. Hedman put up big numbers because of 91, 86 and 21. And Point put up big numbers because of 91, 86 and 77.

They will meet somewhere in the middle and I'm sure the number will be lower than what Marner signed for. But I don't think a $6M bridge deal will get it done. Not when Boeser just signed a bridge deal at $5.9M AVV after two 55-ish point seasons.

 

[DFC]

But Point's camp will lean hard on his 92 point season. Yes, he plays with a lot of talent but said talent gets paid the big bucks. Maybe not in comparison to league-wide comparables but Kucherov, Stamkos and Hedman are the three highest paid players on the team (Vasi aside). We can't give him some low cap hit contract and just tell him "you were only that good because of all the talent on the team". That's not how that works. Kucherov put up big numbers because of 91, 21 and 77. Stamkos put up big numbers because of 86, 21 and 77. Hedman put up big numbers because of 91, 86 and 21. And Point put up big numbers because of 91, 86 and 77.

They will meet somewhere in the middle and I'm sure the number will be lower than what Marner signed for. But I don't think a $6M bridge deal will get it done. Not when Boeser just signed a bridge deal at $5.9M AVV after two 55-ish point seasons.

Also worth noting that Kucherov has played his entire career here, with a variety of linemates, so it's probably not a coincidence that he popped off for 128 when playing with Point both 5v5 and on the PP. Those two had a good effect on each other's numbers. It's not completely one-sided, so the argument of "yeah, but he played with Kucherov," doesn't hold much water.

Point had 7 fewer 5v5 points the year before, playing with Gourde, Palat, Johnson, and Killorn types, whereas Kucherov had 16 fewer, playing with, mainly, Stamkos, Namestnikov, and Miller.

I mean, you take away his 21% shooting, and, so what? He had 32 goals the year before.

 

[Todd1a]

There is no way we should pay more than 7 for a bridge deal, personally I feel 6.5 should be the top offer.

Absolutely agree Kucherov made 4.77 and we offered point 5.7 on his bridge deal so we are paying 1 million per year more then point on a bridge! 6.5 should be the absolute most we should offer him on a 3 year deal! I don’t care if the leafs are idiots and over paid Matthews and marner that’s there problem! Not ours!

 

[Todd1a]

But Point's camp will lean hard on his 92 point season. Yes, he plays with a lot of talent but said talent gets paid the big bucks. Maybe not in comparison to league-wide comparables but Kucherov, Stamkos and Hedman are the three highest paid players on the team (Vasi aside). We can't give him some low cap hit contract and just tell him "you were only that good because of all the talent on the team". That's not how that works. Kucherov put up big numbers because of 91, 21 and 77. Stamkos put up big numbers because of 86, 21 and 77. Hedman put up big numbers because of 91, 86 and 21. And Point put up big numbers because of 91, 86 and 77.

They will meet somewhere in the middle and I'm sure the number will be lower than what Marner signed for. But I don't think a $6M bridge deal will get it done. Not when Boeser just signed a bridge deal at $5.9M AVV after two 55-ish point seasons.

Boeser is in Canada point would be taking home more pay then him! The highest offer I’d make to point would be 6.5 avv per season for 3 years! If he doesn’t accept that then he can sit at home and not get paid anything!

 

[Krewe]

Point has more value today than Kuch had in 2016.

I agree somewhat but you are overstating it. Kucherov was our leading scorer both in the playoffs and regular season

 

[BeingTheThunder]

At this point I don't care what we sign him for, I'm just a fan and it's not my money. Just get it done!

 

[Todd1a]

At this point I don't care what we sign him for, I'm just a fan and it's not my money. Just get it done!

We need him at 6 avv or below we got sergachev, cernak, cirelli and Joseph to sign next summer! And the only player that has his no trade clause go away is Killorn.

 

[Todd1a]

I echo this enough games sign already

 

[DFC]

I agree somewhat but you are overstating it. Kucherov was our leading scorer both in the playoffs and regular season

The value league-wide isn't completely an afterthought though. It doesn't have as much relevance as with a UFA contract, but Point's value to the league right now is vastly higher than Kucherov's at the time of his deal.

It's not a huge factor, but definitely a factor. We know that just about any other team would be looking to lock this kid up for big money. We're not gonna do that. But I think it's a mistake to expect him to just ignore what's going on in the rest of the league and take whatever's offered.

 

[God King Fudge]

 

[God King Fudge]

Outside of Marner, who was going to get a Matthews payday the second they signed Matthews, the other forwards have been as expected on their bridge deals. I think Point should get more than a Boeser, but it's still a bridge and he put up his 90 points on a literal historically prolific offensive team.

A smart GM isn't going to hand out a monster payday on that. I've said it 30 times, so I'll say it again. At this point, a final offer should be presented and if Point doesn't sign, he sits the season.

 

[DFC]

Outside of Marner, who was going to get a Matthews payday the second they signed Matthews, the other forwards have been as expected on their bridge deals. I think Point should get more than a Boeser, but it's still a bridge and he put up his 90 points on a literal historically prolific offensive team.

A smart GM isn't going to hand out a monster payday on that. I've said it 30 times, so I'll say it again. At this point, a final offer should be presented and if Point doesn't sign, he sits the season.

Nobody believes he's gonna get a monster payday. But he was a big contributor to that historic offensive season.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Outside of Marner, who was going to get a Matthews payday the second they signed Matthews, the other forwards have been as expected on their bridge deals. I think Point should get more than a Boeser, but it's still a bridge and he put up his 90 points on a literal historically prolific offensive team.

A smart GM isn't going to hand out a monster payday on that. I've said it 30 times, so I'll say it again. At this point, a final offer should be presented and if Point doesn't sign, he sits the season.

I think they have already done that and I think its just a waiting game at this time. Hes not in camp because neither side has budged and I dont think its JBB that budges but Point has his right to wait it out in hopes for it. We did this with Kuch and he eventually budged. Point is going to get his big payday its just not yet. Unfortunately for him he plays for a team with an internal pay structure. If he was in Toronto he would get over 10 mil but hes not. He will still get paid well, its just not going to be what other teams would give him. In a few years when a few contracts are off the books, he will get his big payday. His sacrifices today help the team win and keep them competitive. That will help keep the talent good and the stats/wins should be good for them going forward. It all works out in the end in this kind of situation. I think the only time you could argue it doesnt is if they dont win a cup. After getting swept in the first round after that kind of season, we should know nothing is guaranteed. What is guaranteed is when you have that kind of talent, more times than not you are going to get into the tournament. From there anything can happen as we all know here.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Outside of Marner, who was going to get a Matthews payday the second they signed Matthews, the other forwards have been as expected on their bridge deals. I think Point should get more than a Boeser, but it's still a bridge and he put up his 90 points on a literal historically prolific offensive team.

A smart GM isn't going to hand out a monster payday on that. I've said it 30 times, so I'll say it again. At this point, a final offer should be presented and if Point doesn't sign, he sits the season.

So what you're saying is, we need a...final solution.

 

[God King Fudge]

Nobody believes he's gonna get a monster payday. But he was a big contributor to that historic offensive season.

Yeah he was a big contributor, but Steven Stamkos, one of the best goal scorers of this era had a career season as well. So did Kucherov. So did the team overall. So it's not like we can sit there and say that happened because of Point, or that he was the key difference. He was a contributor, but he also rode shotgun for the highest scoring wingers in 30 years.

You don't hand out the kind of money I've seen thrown around here for one year of that. Jonathan Cheechoo was a 56 goal scorer for one season. Only topped 30 one other time. All the cards were laid out perfectly for the team last season and some folks here want to give the kid a blank check. It's ridiculous. 5.7 is too low, I agree, but it's a bridge. He shouldn't make much more than that unless he wants to lock in long term.

 

[The Macho King]

Latest run of contracts is calming a bit. The 5.75 isn't going to cut it, but I think 6.5 is now a non-insulting middle-ground.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Yeah he was a big contributor, but Steven Stamkos, one of the best goal scorers of this era had a career season as well. So did Kucherov. So did the team overall. So it's not like we can sit there and say that happened because of Point, or that he was the key difference. He was a contributor, but he also rode shotgun for the highest scoring wingers in 30 years.

You don't hand out the kind of money I've seen thrown around here for one year of that. Jonathan Cheechoo was a 56 goal scorer for one season. Only topped 30 one other time. All the cards were laid out perfectly for the team last season and some folks here want to give the kid a blank check. It's ridiculous. 5.7 is too low, I agree, but it's a bridge. He shouldn't make much more than that unless he wants to lock in long term.

For me its not so much what he did last year as it is the team structure and how that is the most important thing. The fact that we offered 5.7 after that season shows the dedication JBB has to that internal structure. I get that Point had an amazing season and definitely deserves a pay day. I just think that its just not his time to cash in. It wasnt Kuch's time to cash in, it wasnt Stamkos time to cash in, nor some other RFAs on the bridge deal they did. They did eventually get it. Same thing will happen for Point. He will fall in line and I think he wants to. I think the agent is the one pushing for the most he can and thats their job. I just dont see JBB budging and that could mean this drags out a while like Kuch did. I think it gets to the place where Point just steps in and says I want to play. And I think that same thing happened with Kuch on his bridge deal.

 

[BeingTheThunder]

Latest run of contracts is calming a bit. The 5.75 isn't going to cut it, but I think 6.5 is now a non-insulting middle-ground.

Some people on here, IIRC, were insisting that if he was offersheeted $10-$11 Million the Bolts would have to match it or the future would be incredibly bleak. Now that the rubber is meeting the road, I think 3@$6.5-$7 Million is right about where this thing should land at. It's more than fair for a 3-year bridge for both the team and the player.

 

[Todd1a]

Latest run of contracts is calming a bit. The 5.75 isn't going to cut it, but I think 6.5 is now a non-insulting middle-ground.

Absolutely point was never signing that he knows the Lightning will come up a little more ! But we can’t come up a lot need room for next years rfa’s

 

[Todd1a]

For me its not so much what he did last year as it is the team structure and how that is the most important thing. The fact that we offered 5.7 after that season shows the dedication JBB has to that internal structure. I get that Point had an amazing season and definitely deserves a pay day. I just think that its just not his time to cash in. It wasnt Kuch's time to cash in, it wasnt Stamkos time to cash in, nor some other RFAs on the bridge deal they did. They did eventually get it. Same thing will happen for Point. He will fall in line and I think he wants to. I think the agent is the one pushing for the most he can and thats their job. I just dont see JBB budging and that could mean this drags out a while like Kuch did. I think it gets to the place where Point just steps in and says I want to play. And I think that same thing happened with Kuch on his bridge deal.

Pretty much that’s probably what will need to happen is point walks in and says I want to go play hockey let’s make a deal.

 

[DFC]

Yeah he was a big contributor, but Steven Stamkos, one of the best goal scorers of this era had a career season as well. So did Kucherov. So did the team overall. So it's not like we can sit there and say that happened because of Point, or that he was the key difference. He was a contributor, but he also rode shotgun for the highest scoring wingers in 30 years.

You don't hand out the kind of money I've seen thrown around here for one year of that. Jonathan Cheechoo was a 56 goal scorer for one season. Only topped 30 one other time. All the cards were laid out perfectly for the team last season and some folks here want to give the kid a blank check. It's ridiculous. 5.7 is too low, I agree, but it's a bridge. He shouldn't make much more than that unless he wants to lock in long term.

Kucherov got a big bump from Point too. Point is the one different factor for him, and he goes off for 128 points. I think that can be used as much to Point's advantage as it can be used to his detriment. You also have to consider Point's sophomore season, which was very impressive when you take into account how limited his PP time was. The kid put up 50 ES points without Kucherov. 57 with him.

Biggest of all, he has one more goal than Steven Stamkos in the past two years combined. That's not nothing.

If we bridge him, it's not a traditional bridge. It's not a "Let's see what you can do," bridge. Because Point has already had a bigger season than anybody signed to a bridge deal. It's a "This is all we can afford," bridge. So if he wants a bit of money, I have a hard time holding it against him.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Pretty much that’s probably what will need to happen is point walks in and says I want to go play hockey let’s make a deal.

I get how that can possibly rub him the wrong way but I think it also speaks volumes for a team to stick to their guns, especially if the team has done it a certain way before you got here. He is smart enough to understand that I think. I just think its the same procedure that Kuch took with his agent. Its really all they can do and I dont blame them hoping he will budge. Its the agents job to do that. If he isnt then he isnt doing a good job as an agent. However, that means that he has direct goal opposite of TB. So him sitting out isnt surprising. Unfortunately for the agent and for Point, his big pay day isnt happening until after this deal. The good news for Point and his agent is that the team has after the bridge deal gave a nice deal after and that is encouraging for him. Its just not going to happen for a few years. Its not like the deal he gets now wont be rich. It will be richer than majority of people out there but the system in place allows for TB to do it this way. Just because Toronto wants to be all "progressive" with RFAs doesnt mean that other teams need to.

 

[The Macho King]

Point gave us a good option in the bumper spot that we didn't really have due to his shot accuracy, but I would say that he benefited from Kucherov far more than the other way around.

And let's recall - Point pretty much disappeared after January. February on he was pretty f***ing pedestrian.