Brady Tkachuk vs Mitch Marner

[jbeck5]

Could you address the goal posts being moved on the timing? I read the Sens board in the off-season. They said they were a lock to make the playoffs. Your GM said the rebuild is over. How can you sit there and say your cycle is just starting?

I literally addressed it twice.

I said go look at what neutral fans said.. obviously sens fans will predict higher and rival fans will predict lower.

What were the neutral fans saying? ( This is the more realistic expectations as it eliminates most bias)

Now stop saying i haven't addressed it.

 

[jbeck5]

If we're just going to randomly talk about decades ago for no apparent reason, the Leafs were scoring in this "shootout" before Ottawa even existed.

Yes, you can go way back...Ottawa used to win more than Toronto...then Ottawa stopped existing...then Ottawa came back...Toronto won more than Ottawa in the playoffs in the ~2000-2005 era...then Ottawa won more than Toronto in the playoffs in the ~2005-2020 era...now let's see I guess? Toronto is expected to win by neutral fans in the ~2020-current era...but they aren't.

I guess we'll see what Ottawa does in the ~2025-future era?

 

[Bileur]

Right, so you just admitted the fanbase moved the goal posts. So again, how are they at the beginning of their cycle? Go and re read the off-season threads. Just missing the playoffs was not the most common prediction. It was that they were better than Boston and Toronto.

This is such a garbage take.

1) go find me a consensus from the Sens fan base saying they were a lock for the playoffs. Show me a group of Sens fans saying they were better than the leafs. A few outliers here or there won’t prove anything. Such a majority doesn’t exist. You’re making things up. The goal was clearly stated to “play meaningful games in March”, it remains to be seen whether they reach that.

2) even if you weren’t making things up, how many seasons have we heard about the leafs being a cup favourite only to never pass the first round? Now we’ve got leafs fans in here crowing about regular season points and making the playoffs as a measure of success. How is that any different in terms of “moving the goal posts”?

 

[Dekes For Days]

I said could be a difference, not will.

You don't make your team worse for illogical hopes and dreams.

I've seen countless teams who constantly rank at the top and don't go far in the playoffs, and I've also seen countless teams who always rank in the middle, yet are good to advance a round or two. There are reasons for that. I'm trying to discuss those reasons.

There are examples of better teams losing to lesser teams over a small sample, but you're not discussing the reasons for that. You're arbitrarily claiming incorrect reasons.

Often, grit is a reason. So is character.

No, not significant ones at least. That's just what you're misattributing it to.

And I don't think it's absurd to say tkachuk has a lot more character and grit than marner.

If your definition of "grit" is simply hitting and fighting, then sure, but that's not really what grit is, and that doesn't help much of anything. Marner has plenty of actual grit, and there's no basis to claim that Tkachuk has more "character". All things considered, Marner is easily better, by a decent amount, in all situations.

Yes, you can go way back...Ottawa used to win more than Toronto...then Ottawa stopped existing...then Ottawa came back...Toronto won more than Ottawa in the playoffs in the ~2000-2005 era...then Ottawa won more than Toronto in the playoffs in the ~2005-2020 era...now let's see I guess?

Lol @ trying to take credit for a completely different team's results, which would still leave you with less cups.
If we're talking about team history, Leafs have already long won the shootout.
But we're not talking about team history. We're talking about the teams right now. We're talking about the current cores. We're talking about Marner and Tkachuk.
The Leafs are better. The Leaf's core is better. Marner is better.
There's no argument otherwise.

 

[patriotfan]

I remember this being a poll/thread sometime last year and turned into a multi page debate, but it got deleted/locked or something, I can't find it anywhere.

Who do you take on your team today?

For context, this season:

Marner : 25GP, 8G, 21A, 29PTS
Tkachuk : 23GP, 11G, 17A, 28PTS

common guys close this thread already, its not even close who's better marner is a lot better all around player period case closed.......................

 

[jbeck5]

common guys close this thread already, its not even close who's better marner is a lot better all around player period case closed.......................

It's showing 60/40...those don't usually get shut down.

Usually it's the ones that are like 90/10.

Why are you concerned with the topic remaining open? Just don't click on it?

 

[jbeck5]

You don't make your team worse for illogical hopes and dreams.

There are examples of better teams losing to lesser teams over a small sample, but you're not discussing the reasons for that. You're arbitrarily claiming incorrect reasons.

No, not significant ones at least. That's just what you're misattributing it to.

If your definition of "grit" is simply hitting and fighting, then sure, but that's not really what grit is, and that doesn't help much of anything. Marner has plenty of actual grit, and there's no basis to claim that Tkachuk has more "character". All things considered, Marner is easily better, by a decent amount, in all situations.

Lol @ trying to take credit for a completely different team's results, which would still leave you with less cups.
If we're talking about team history, Leafs have already long won the shootout.
But we're not talking about team history. We're talking about the teams right now. We're talking about the current cores. We're talking about Marner and Tkachuk.
The Leafs are better. The Leaf's core is better. Marner is better.
There's no argument otherwise.

Well the passed started because we were talking about timelines.

Considering there's way more leaf fans then sens fans and the score is 60/40, clearly there's arguments to be had. That's why there's so many pages.

If someone was claiming that Tyler Motte is better than Austin Matthews, there wouldn't be countless pages discussing it, because there wouldn't be a discussion. Leafs and Matthews fans wouldn't get worked up and care. They would think it's a joke and ignore the thread. The fact leaf fans are still in here getting worked up goes to show that there's an actual discussion to be had. No one wastes their time on a motte/Matthews comparison. No one.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Considering there's way more leaf fans then sens fans and the score is 60/40, clearly there's arguments to be had.

The biggest group of voters on this site is people who vote against everything Leafs, so I don't know what you think still losing the poll anyway proves.
There are no legitimate arguments for Tkachuk over Marner, which is why you and everybody else has been unable to provide one. Marner is easily a better player.

 

[bert]

Right, so you just admitted the fanbase moved the goal posts. So again, how are they at the beginning of their cycle? Go and re read the off-season threads. Just missing the playoffs was not the most common prediction. It was that they were better than Boston and Toronto.

100 percent false and made up on your end. Do better. There are plenty of polls right on the sens board that prove you are wrong.

If we're just going to randomly talk about decades ago for no apparent reason, the Leafs were scoring in this "shootout" before Ottawa even existed.

Are you new?

 

[jbeck5]

The biggest group of voters on this site is people who vote against everything Leafs, so I don't know what you think still losing the poll anyway proves.
There are no legitimate arguments for Tkachuk over Marner, which is why you and everybody else has been unable to provide one. Marner is easily a better player.

In the regular season, sure. But the bar he has set in the playoffs isn't high, and though tkachuk hasnt proved it yet, it's not unreasonable to think tkachuk will have a greater impact than what marner has provided, simply because what marner has provided has been very underwhelming.

 

[Dekes For Days]

In the regular season, sure. But the bar he has set in the playoffs isn't high, and though tkachuk hasnt proved it yet, it's not unreasonable to think tkachuk will have a greater impact than what marner has provided, simply because what marner has provided has been very underwhelming.

Marner is an excellent player in both the regular season and playoffs, and no, you can't just arbitrarily assume that a player who has never even played in the playoffs is going to suddenly and magically be better.

 

[BTP]

Marner. Not close. Better offensively and defensively. One of the best passers in the game. If Olympics were still a thing, he would be the top line right wing on Team Canada.

Also, if he played for any other team the poll would be even more lop sided than it already is.

 

[patriotfan]

It's showing 60/40...those don't usually get shut down.

Usually it's the ones that are like 90/10.

Why are you concerned with the topic remaining open? Just don't click on it?

you must be a senators fan

 

[jbeck5]

you must be a senators fan

You must be a Patriots fan.

 

[Atomos2]

Or, they needed more.



In the season or in the playoffs?

2 very different things.

For example: Hossa was a better regular season player than Gary Roberts in the 2000-2004 era, but Roberts was better than Hossa in the playoffs..


The Leafs are a very good regular season team, no one is disputing that.

But if we're talking making a playoff run, they need more oomph.

The Leafs need depth. It has nothing to do with replacing one of their top players with someone who’s worse. That does nothing and is completely ridiculous.

They need better support players.

In the regular season, sure. But the bar he has set in the playoffs isn't high, and though tkachuk hasnt proved it yet, it's not unreasonable to think tkachuk will have a greater impact than what marner has provided, simply because what marner has provided has been very underwhelming.

By whose standards? Marner’s performance in the playoffs last year was really good. It was two years ago where his performance was underwhelming. And if you are focusing on two year history then B.Tkachuk wasn’t even in the same stratosphere as Marner back then.

This playoff narrative is so illogical it’s embarrassing. Why should we focus on the B.Tkachuk of today when we are comparing him to the playoff Marner of two seasons ago? It’s literally a nonsense argument.

 

[Pyrophorus]

To make the playoffs or advance a round? That changes a lot of what they need or don't.

You're right in that they don't need anything to make the playoffs.

You're wrong that they don't need anything to make some noise in the playoffs.

Unknown=bad
We don't know about Tkachuk, and his families dearth of production in the playoffs.

 

[bert]

Marner is an excellent player in both the regular season and playoffs, and no, you can't just arbitrarily assume that a player who has never even played in the playoffs is going to suddenly and magically be better.

This simply isnt true up to this point. Heck of a player in the regular season though thats for sure.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This simply isnt true up to this point.

It's absolutely true. 2nd best player on either team in the Tampa series last year, after Matthews.

 

[Atomos2]

This simply isnt true up to this point. Heck of a player in the regular season though thats for sure.

Yea it is, unless you are willfully ignoring last year's playoffs.

 

[bert]

Yea it is, unless you are willfully ignoring last year's playoffs.

Where was he in game 6 and 7? One secondary assist 3 total shots.

I am confident he breaks through at some point it just hasnt happened yet.

 

[Sundinisagod]

In a vacuum Marner is the better player.

…but all things considered, I’d trade Marner for Tkachuk.

 

[Byron Bitz]

You don't make your team worse for illogical hopes and dreams.

There are examples of better teams losing to lesser teams over a small sample, but you're not discussing the reasons for that. You're arbitrarily claiming incorrect reasons.

No, not significant ones at least. That's just what you're misattributing it to.

If your definition of "grit" is simply hitting and fighting, then sure, but that's not really what grit is, and that doesn't help much of anything. Marner has plenty of actual grit, and there's no basis to claim that Tkachuk has more "character". All things considered, Marner is easily better, by a decent amount, in all situations.

Lol @ trying to take credit for a completely different team's results, which would still leave you with less cups.
If we're talking about team history, Leafs have already long won the shootout.
But we're not talking about team history. We're talking about the teams right now. We're talking about the current cores. We're talking about Marner and Tkachuk.
The Leafs are better. The Leaf's core is better. Marner is better.
There's no argument otherwise.

This, there is no logical argument to be made against any of these points. The Sens have been a terrible team for 6 years now.

 

[bert]

This, there is no logical argument to be made against any of these points. The Sens have been a terrible team for 6 years now.

Id still rather have Tkachuk personally but I can obviously see the argument for Marner. He's been the better player, this year Tkachuk has closed the gap. I think what Marner brings is easier to find and less unique. Given age and contracts I take Tkachuk. I just watched the Leafs Bruins game. They desperately need a Tkachuk.

 

[Atomos2]

Where was he in game 6 and 7? One secondary assist 3 total shots.

I am confident he breaks through at some point it just hasnt happened yet.

So not only would Tkachuk get more than 8 points in 7 games vs last years Tampa Bay Lightning but he’d also dominate in the final two games. You’re grasping at straws.

You realize Kucherov and Stamkos didn’t show up in game 7 either. Guess Tkachuk is a better playoff performer than them as well?

Or Marner played well in a tight checking game 7 where the stars cancelled each other out and Tampa’s depth was the deciding factor.

 

[Atomos2]

Id still rather have Tkachuk personally but I can obviously see the argument for Marner. He's been the better player, this year Tkachuk has closed the gap. I think what Marner brings is easier to find and less unique. Given age and contracts I take Tkachuk. I just watched the Leafs Bruins game. They desperately need a Tkachuk.

They could probably use a Matthews too