Player Discussion Brady Tkachuk (LW) - Part XI

[Micklebot]

You’re confusing leverage points leading to the agreement and the final agreement. It’s irrelevant that Brady had them in a tough spot, they still determined there was more value in signing him for that figure than not.

They could have traded his rights. They didn’t.

When someone buys the house down the street for 400k more than it sold for three years ago did they objectively overpay? Maybe, but that’s the price they were willing to pay and the price the seller was willing to sell for, it’s what both parties thought made sense for them.

It’s not arguable; the contract was signed. Obviously at the time it was signed both parties agreed to that price and return.

Your trying to argue that nobody ever pays more than they think something is worth, which is frankly absurd. If you have already sold your house and need to buy the next one or will need to live out of a hotel, you'll pay more than you think a house is worth because your alternative is worse. Deadlines force people to pay more than they think things are actually worth all the time. Trading his rights would have been catastrophic from a PR perspective, there were literally season ticket holders holding off renewing until he got extended, an extended holdout would have been pretty terrible too.

Your right, it's not arguable, you're objectively wrong. By you're logic, nobody ever pays more than they think something is worth for anything.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

You’re confusing leverage points leading to the agreement and the final agreement. It’s irrelevant that Brady had them in a tough spot, they still determined there was more value in signing him for that figure than not.

They could have traded his rights. They didn’t.

When someone buys the house down the street for 400k more than it sold for three years ago did they objectively overpay? Maybe, but that’s the price they were willing to pay and the price the seller was willing to sell for, it’s what both parties thought made sense for them.

It’s not arguable; the contract was signed. Obviously at the time it was signed both parties agreed to that price and return.

They couldn't really trade him, the organization had been hyping him up as the cornerstone and the next captain since he was drafted.

Imagine if they trade the player they have been marketing as the future off his elc after the Alfredsson, Karlsson, Stone debacles.

Brady took full advantage.

 

[GCK]

brady sat out camp and demanded $8mil+. that's the difference.

he thought he was worth so much, that he was bigger than the team and now its time for him to show why he thought he was worth so much. batherson goes down and brady goes silent. seems like he cant carry anything himself.

I'm not saying he has to go out there and kill it but at least show some skill. hes not paid $8 mil for 1-2 plays a game. He needs to be much better.

Oh, so you are basically pissy because a professional athlete used leverage to maximize his earnings.

 

[GCK]

38 points in 50 games is really good. The problem is that most of those came when he was playing with a super nova Batherson who was on pace for 100 points.

Since Batherson went down Brady has probably been on pace for like 40-50 points while being a non factor almost every game.

Actually Brady had 5+10 since Batherson went down which is 59P pace. Norris missed a bunch of that time as well. Production is down slightly but not even close to the numbers you posted. That was fairly easy to check, you may want to look these things up before throwing out crappy guesses.

 

[BondraTime]

Actually Brady had 5+10 since Batherson went down which is 59P pace. Norris missed a bunch of that time as well. Production is down slightly but not even close to the numbers you posted. That was fairly easy to check, you may want to look these things up before throwing out crappy guesses.

He’s had 11 in 17 since Batherson went down I believe, 5 + 6 for 53 point pace.

 

[GCK]

He’s had 11 in 17 since Batherson went down I believe, 5 + 6 for 53 point pace.

Sorry. I used the wrong Buffalo game for the starting point. Thanks

 

[JungleBeat]

Looking at Brady’s shot totals you would think he is creating some good plays but I hardly remember them

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Actually Brady had 5+10 since Batherson went down which is 59P pace. Norris missed a bunch of that time as well. Production is down slightly but not even close to the numbers you posted. That was fairly easy to check, you may want to look these things up before throwing out crappy guesses.

I believe he was at around a 70 point pace with Batherson so a drop off to a 53 point pace is pretty massive no?

And this isn't Brady creating chances left and right and just being snakebitten or his teammates can't finish his plays. That would be understandable. This is Brady going whole games without being able to generate a dangerous scoring chance for.

 

[bert]

I mean non factor offensively and defensively.
I know he always brings physical energy. Which I do appreciate but again, he's not paid 8.2 million just for physical energy. He needs to do more.

And have you really been happy with Brady's offensive game since Batherson went down? Cuz if you have been we really must have been playing different sports.

If Karlsson or Spezza or even Stone were making giveaways like this they would have been endlessly roasted but Brady gets a pass because he plays physical?

Have it loved it no, but he is a unique player that can elevate players around him and make room for them. He isnt a line driver, he isnt a good fit with Stutzle either. But he is a player that can bring a very unique skillset and is ultra competitve. He drags his team into the fight, and he is one of the best in the league at doing that while providing offense. I dont like who they chose to play him with but there have been alot of injuries. You're way to hard on the player as you dont value certain aspect that he brings to the table. The team has showed to be very competitve, and I think his leadership style and the energy he brings is a good catalyst that drives that type of culture on this team.

 

[Big Muddy]

I haven't been following this thread, but in terms of a broader perspective, let's see how the team does (exclude this Coyotes game) as several players have returned to the lineup now.

If it all hinges on Batherson being in the lineup, then we know we don't have the depth to be a true contender. Lots of teams keep on winning when one of their stars goes out with any injury. Pittsburgh for example seem to hum along even with both Crosby and Malkin out of the lineup.

 

[Boud]

Looking at Brady’s shot totals you would think he is creating some good plays but I hardly remember them

A lot of Brady's shot are considered HDSC because of the location where he takes the shots but very often there's basically no chance that the puck goes in unless it hits a skate. Shoves it into the pads, often does that play from the side of the net. It goes in from time to time but it's not efficient. Kinda reminds me of Duchene taking it wide and cutting to the net almost everytime he had the puck. I'd like to see him try the cross-crease pass more often like he did on the PP back when they had that setup play couple years back with Pageau, use his vision more than just wacking it on net.

I guess coaches might like that he doesn't complicate it but he could create more having the puck around the net like he does.

I feel he's been more patient than previous years though and just better in general. I'm happily surprised with his strenght and patience this year. Him and Norris have been struggling to create this season without Batherson though, Bath is the one that stirs the drink as we all know.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Impressive work by Tkachuk this season.
Last season his stats were: 56 GP 17 G 19 A 36 PTS -17
This season his are: 50 GP 17 G 21 A 38 PTS -2

He had actually matched his point production from last season 6 games ago so it took him 12 fewer games in total. It is also noticeable that he has substantially improved his plus/minus. Considering the fact that Ottawa has weak offensive depth and that Batherson and Norris have missed a large chunk of games, Tkachuk's production is pretty impressive.

It is also worth noting that at the same age (22), Daniel Alfredsson had still not played a single NHL game, and Mark Stone had only 4 NHL games.

 

[aragorn]

Impressive work by Tkachuk this season.
Last season his stats were: 56 GP 17 G 19 A 36 PTS -17
This season his are: 50 GP 17 G 21 A 38 PTS -2

He had actually matched his point production from last season 6 games ago so it took him 12 fewer games in total. It is also noticeable that he has substantially improved his plus/minus. Considering the fact that Ottawa has weak offensive depth and that Batherson and Norris have missed a large chunk of games, Tkachuk's production is pretty impressive.

It is also worth noting that at the same age (22), Daniel Alfredsson had still not played a single NHL game, and Mark Stone had only 4 NHL games.

People keep saying he is weak defensively & yet his plus minus drops considerably on a lottery team.

 

[Bileur]

Your trying to argue that nobody ever pays more than they think something is worth, which is frankly absurd. If you have already sold your house and need to buy the next one or will need to live out of a hotel, you'll pay more than you think a house is worth because your alternative is worse. Deadlines force people to pay more than they think things are actually worth all the time. Trading his rights would have been catastrophic from a PR perspective, there were literally season ticket holders holding off renewing until he got extended, an extended holdout would have been pretty terrible too.

Your right, it's not arguable, you're objectively wrong. By you're logic, nobody ever pays more than they think something is worth for anything.

All I was trying to argue is that what Brady brings has value outside his production and that the Sens recognized that at the time of the signing. At the time of the signing, both parties definitely thought he had that value. The same applies to Bobby Ryan. At the time of the signing the Sens hoped he’d produce and saw value in signing him in part because of the fanbase. Unfortunately he didn’t ultimately provide the value the team hoped he would in the long run.

It’s ridiculous to try to argue that Brady somehow needs to produce more counting stats because he somehow forced the Sens to give him a contract. He can live up to his contract without being a PPG player because both parties understood his other attributes had value.

How am I objectively wrong that the Sens thought Tkachuk had a value of ~8.3 x 7 years at the time they signed the contract?

You are literally arguing that the Sens didn’t agree with Brady that he was worth ~8.3 x 7 years. How can you justify that when they signed the contract? They could have kept playing hardball.

They couldn't really trade him, the organization had been hyping him up as the cornerstone and the next captain since he was drafted.

Imagine if they trade the player they have been marketing as the future off his elc after the Alfredsson, Karlsson, Stone debacles.

Brady took full advantage.

Keeping the guy you built up as your cornerstone after his play and character suggested he would be a cornerstone has value. They could have traded him it would just have hurt them financially. In other words, signing him brings value.

 

[Micklebot]

How am I objectively wrong that the Sens thought Tkachuk had a value of ~8.3 x 7 years at the time they signed the contract?

What I responded to was your claim that it was obvious they agreed he was worth that much. It's a false assumption that leaves no room for a team ever paying more than they believe a player is worth. That claim is objectively wrong as it is neither obvious nor confirmed.

You've built up an argument for a premise that the team can never pay more than they think a player is worth, which is objectively wrong and as a result the whole argument fails. Is it possible they agreed with him that he was worth that much? Sure. Is it obviously the case? Absolutely not.

 

[Bileur]

What I responded to was your claim that it was obvious they agreed he was worth that much. It's a false assumption that leaves no room for a team ever paying more than they believe a player is worth. That claim is objectively wrong as it is neither obvious nor confirmed.

You've built up an argument for a premise that the team can never pay more than they think a player is worth, which is objectively wrong and as a result the whole argument fails. Is it possible they agreed with him that he was worth that much? Sure. Is it obviously the case? Absolutely not.

You seem to be framing my argument to exclude value the signing brought to the Sens which is external to Brady’s performance and character (IE retaining fans). That’s part of the value the Sens get from signing him and is definitely included in the equation.

These are two sophisticated parties who came to an agreement after long an drawn out negotiations. I think the Sens clearly thought it was worth it for them to sign Brady to that contract when they did, you think there’s a chance they didn’t.

We each think the other is objectively wrong, we’re obviously not going to agree and frankly I don’t care.

 

[EXTRAS]

Batherson and tkachuks contracts should be swapped

 

[Micklebot]

You seem to be framing my argument to exclude value the signing brought to the Sens which is external to Brady’s performance and character (IE retaining fans). That’s part of the value the Sens get from signing him and is definitely included in the equation.

These are two sophisticated parties who came to an agreement after long an drawn out negotiations. I think the Sens clearly thought it was worth it for them to sign Brady to that contract when they did, you think there’s a chance they didn’t.

We each think the other is objectively wrong, we’re obviously not going to agree and frankly I don’t care.

I'm not excluding anything, the sens may very well have valued him exactly at what they paid him, what is objectively wrong is the assumption that because they paid him that, they must have agreed that he was worth that. You've decided to use the fact that he signed as proof that they agreed on his value which is a fallacious argument, that's all.

 

[aragorn]

Batherson and tkachuks contracts should be swapped

He's having a pretty awsome game right now & has been responsible for a couple of goals even though he won't get an assist on them.

 

[EXTRAS]

He's having a pretty awsome game right now & has been responsible for a couple of goals even though he won't get an assist on them.

That's great, but both our statements can be true.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

simply can't make 8.2 million, not produce elite offence, and play defence like this.



It's not even the worst play as when it was 6-5 yotes Brady turned over the puck at the offensive blue line and flat out stopped skating back letting his man get a scoring chance. It was the play that Zaitsev wrecked Murray.



This is right after the turnover, guess who was the last Sens player back in the zone on this play and guess which Yotes player got the scoring chance.

It was Brady, and it was the guy Brady is covering in the pic who got the chance, off a Brady turnover, in a 5-6 game. He straight up stopped skating back expecting someone else to do it for him.

Crazy.

And I know I'll be called a hater but that was one of Brady's best game in a loooong time. Some really bad and confusing turnovers but when he was playing his game he was effective.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

simply can't make 8.2 million, not produce elite offence and play defence like this.

It's not even the worst play as the when it was 6-5 yotes Brady turned over the puck at the offensive blue line and flat out stopped skating back letting his man get a scoring chance. It was the play that Zaitsev wrecked Murray.



guess who was the last sens player back in the zone on this play and guess which player got the scoring chance.

It was Brady, and it was the guy Brady is covering in the pic who got the chance, off a Brady turnover, in a 5-6 game. He straight up stopped skating back expecting someone else to do it for him.

Crazy.

And I know I'll be called a hater but that was one of Brady's best game in a loooong time. Some really bad and confusing turnovers but when he was playing his game he was effective.

You Sir, are delusional.

 

[Blacephalon]

You Sir, are delusional.

I would argue that you are

 

[Answer]

You Sir, are delusional.

Please tell me what he showed there and said was wrong in your delusional eyes?

He does have a very strong valid point. You don't have any counter argument to it, so you chose to just attack the poster

Not hard to see who's delusional here

 

[Answer]

I missed the game today, but can anyone tell me how effective Tkachuk was offensively?