Player Discussion Brady Tkachuk (LW) - Part XI

Micklebot

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the number one thing they are saying is that we need more leaders, more professionals, more vets.

aka the leadership and the room and the habits f***ing suck. and this on a team that already had Giroux and Tarasenko.
They say we need more vets because we are among the youngest teams in the league, not because the leaders we have suck, we lack experience to help us get over the highs and lows. Once again, they want to build around Brady, there's a reason for that.
 

Agent Zuuuub

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From Capfriendly

View attachment 834124
View attachment 834125


Maybe don't let AI find you readily available information, especially when it didn't even get Brady's cap hit correct, using the adjusted season as opposed to his cap hit for the full value of the contract or like Cap friendly does the typical hit.

I just took cap hit and what the salary cap was when they signed their contract. i think it is a fair method as any.

also all the differences with any method are minute. not sure it changes the argument when the difference is +/- 0.04.
 

Micklebot

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I just took cap hit and what the salary cap was when they signed their contract. i think it is a fair method as any.

also all the differences with any method are minute. not sure it changes the argument when the difference is +/- 0.04.
Well of course you would, it's an inflated cap hit that was only there for one season and gets you the result you want, while any other method reaches the opposite conclusion,
 

Agent Zuuuub

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Well of course you would, it's an inflated cap hit that was only there for one season and gets you the result you want, while any other method reaches the opposite conclusion,

would the first year not be the most relevant?

since future cap gains or drawdowns are unknown?

and wow historic Norris Karlsson got 0.04 more than a Brady that had yet to hit 50 points.

changes everything.
 

Micklebot

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would the first year not be the most relevant?

since future cap gains or drawdowns are unknown?

and wow PPG Norris Karlsson got 0.04 more than a Brady that had yet to hit 50 points.

changes everything.
Because the first year is artificially inflated, and represents one year vice any other means representing 6 or 7 years. It's misleading, but got you the answer you wanted so it's perfectly fine, right?
 

bicboi64

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He's on pace for what, 37 goals? what the heck are you talking about still not scoring? Not contributing to wins? He's among the team leaders in most categories, at 5v5 (500 mins) 5h in GF%, 1st in SF%, 1st in CF%, 2nd in SCF%, 1st in HDCF%, 1st in shots, 1st in hits, 1st in goals, 1st in xG, 1st in rebounds created. He isn't why we've been losing, not by any stretch of the imagination.

His actions and words are exactly why he was a prime candidate for Captain and chosen for captain, he's been a leader on the ice and off the ice since his arrival, but people see loses and suddenly him standing up for his team is him not taking accountability.

Maybe instead of saying blow it up, ask yourself what do they know that you don't, because I have a pretty good feeling the Jacques Martin, Alfredsson, Staios, Poulin, et al would probably know a lot more about whether or not he's been a good leader than anybody on the outside looking in could possible know.
This is such bs when it comes to measuring leadership. What having hits and leading your team in scoring by 1 point makes you a good leader? Does having social media videos of playing with kids makes you a good leader? It's always a bit hard to measure something as intangible as leadership, but the metrics we're using are so weak. Anytime someone asks "How is he a good leader", there are so little tangible things we can use to describe Tkachuk compared to previous players in his roles.

Yes he's first in goals, but his playmaking has definitely declined. Tkachuk has an underrated quick touch pass that he was using last year that clearly isn't being used this year. There's a reason his assists have declined. His 70 point pace is definitely a step below from last year.

Any stat involving his shots needs a 2nd look since he's a a high volume shooter, he's been top 10 for several years now and it skews a lot of advanced stats. He's also 1st for xGA, 2nd for expected shot attempts against.

I'm not saying he's shite and needs to be traded, but he's clearly taken a step back production-wise especially how he is in our own end and the arguments for his good leadership comes down to "ownership and the players knows better" rather than tangible facts the average joe can see.

Because the first year is artificially inflated, and represents one year vice any other means representing 6 or 7 years. It's misleading, but got you the answer you wanted so it's perfectly fine, right?
But that artificial inflation applies to every contract. EK's first year was higher than each of his years. Also, I believe (please correct me though Agent Zub, not trying to speak for anyone), that the gist of the post is, one player warranted a higher cap percentage over the other
 
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Micklebot

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This is such bs when it comes to measuring leadership. What having hits and leading your team in scoring by 1 point makes you a good leader? Does having social media videos of playing with kids makes you a good leader? It's always a bit hard to measure something as intangible as leadership, but the metrics we're using are so weak. Anytime someone asks "How is he a good leader", there are so little tangible things we can use to describe Tkachuk compared to previous players in his roles.

Being active in the community and social programs isn't bs, being the first guy to stand up for your teammates isn't bs, going out there and working hard every shift isn't bs. His teamates and his coaches talk about his leadership, but fans must know better than the people with direct exposure to his leadership, why, because we're losing so it must be his leadership...


Yes he's first in goals, but his playmaking has definitely declined. Tkachuk has an underrated quick touch pass that he was using last year that clearly isn't being used this year. There's a reason his assists have declined. His 70 point pace is definitely a step below from last year.
his 5v5 assists are almost exactly the same as last year, PP is where it's dropped off, given his role on the PP and how some of the other guys have played, I'm not sure I'd attribute that entirely to him, but he can be better. That said, he is absolutely still contributing, and quite a bit.

Any stat involving his shots needs a 2nd look since he's a a high volume shooter, he's been top 10 for several years now and it skews a lot of advanced stats. He's also 1st for xGA, 2nd for expected shot attempts against.
He's clearly been a net positive (a big one) on the ice, yes, he's a high even player, and he's gotten the results with a 52.48 GF%. The implication that he isn't contributing to wins is absurd on it's face and truly doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I'm not saying he's shite and needs to be traded, but he's clearly taken a step back production-wise and the arguments for his good leadership comes down to "ownership and the players knows better" rather than tangible facts the average joe can see.
players aren't going to score exactly the same amount every year, his production is pretty much in line with the variance one can expect year to year, and is mostly a result of a PP than hasn't clicked.

If Fans are going to call out leadership you're damn right they should be called out for not having access to the information required to actually make that judgement.
But that artificial inflation applies to every contract. EK's first year was higher than each of his years. Also, I believe (please correct me though Agent Zub, not trying to speak for anyone), that the gist of the post is, one player warranted a higher cap percentage over the other
No, it doesn't. The artificial inflation is because Brady held out so his cap hit was calculated differentely for year one, and then back to normal for every other year. It is a unique calculation for players that sign mid year, you wouldn't claim Nylander got 12.9% of the cap when he signed a 6 year 45 mil contract in 17-18 when the cap was 79.5,
 
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Ice-Tray

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I never said trade the guy.


But he's not ready for the C currently, he needs to mature.
I’m not convinced that fans watching the game really have much useful insight into whether a guy should be wearing the C. Clearly the organization feels that he should at this point.

Stripping a captain of the C is highly irregular and I seriously doubt that it would go over well for anyone right now.
 

BankStreetParade

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I’m not convinced that fans watching the game really have much useful insight into whether a guy should be wearing the C. Clearly the organization feels that he should at this point.

Stripping a captain of the C is highly irregular and I seriously doubt that it would go over well for anyone right now.
These are irregular times, as evidenced by the fact that we're one of the worst teams in the league this year with a max cap roster. At some point, you can't just ruffle some feathers with a trade of an auxiliary core guy. We need to see something substantial happen to completely reset the mental composition of this team and propel them forward.

Note: I'm not saying stripping the C is the thing to do but nothing should be off the table anymore.
 
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Icelevel

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Wow. I will not call anyone in particular out here. But wow. Not everyone is a smart hockey fan. Even in Ottawa! ;)
 

lancepitlick

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He probably shouldn't have been given the C at such a young age as he has to wear all of this losing and unless you are a Sidney Crosby or something it's probably better to not be the Captain at such a young age when you yourself are still learning to be a professional.

That's not a knock on Brady. He seems like he's done everything right, for the most part.
 

bicboi64

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Being active in the community and social programs isn't bs, being the first guy to stand up for your teammates isn't bs, going out there and working hard every shift isn't bs. His teamates and his coaches talk about his leadership, but fans must know better than the people with direct exposure to his leadership, why, because we're losing so it must be his leadership...

his 5v5 assists are almost exactly the same as last year, PP is where it's dropped off, given his role on the PP and how some of the other guys have played, I'm not sure I'd attribute that entirely to him, but he can be better. That said, he is absolutely still contributing, and quite a bit.

He's clearly been a net positive (a big one) on the ice, yes, he's a high even player, and he's gotten the results with a 52.48 GF%. The implication that he isn't contributing to wins is absurd on it's face and truly doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

players aren't going to score exactly the same amount every year, his production is pretty much in line with the variance one can expect year to year, and is mostly a result of a PP than hasn't clicked.

If Fans are going to call out leadership you're damn right they should be called out for not having access to the information required to actually make that judgement.

No, it doesn't. The artificial inflation is because Brady held out so his cap hit was calculated differentely for year one, and then back to normal for every other year. It is a unique calculation for players that sign mid year, you wouldn't claim Nylander got 12.9% of the cap when he signed a 6 year 45 mil contract in 17-18 when the cap was 79.5,
Mate, I'd appreciate it if you debated the points that I made and not bring up stuff like the bolded because I've never said those words. I've never made any points about fans knowing better or said we're losing because of his leadership. It's always been "Tkachuk is a good top line winger for us, but I feel he's regressed and was given the C to early for ABC reasons".

I never said Tkachuk isn't contributing, I feel he's regressed this year in those contributions based on stats and the eye test relative to last year. Not saying he's not contributing, but that he's contributing less. You can attribute it to our weakened PP, but I think its his ES play as well. His assists/per 60 has decreased as well and from the eye test, it's just not smart hockey from him.

As for his leadership, given how rare it is to see current or former players speak negatively about any player's leadership, it's not meaningful to see anyone praise current players, last of all his teammates or former coach (all of whom have produced mediocre results). I compare the totality of his career to peers in previous roles and on-ice accomplishments which don't appear to be much relative to other captains when judging how Tkachuk is as C. He doesn't show up every night given his refusal to stand up to his pest of a brother of which we've debated before and will have to just agree to disagree.

Tkachuk has donated money to the Boys and Girls Club in 2023, what else has he done for the community? I'm legit curious as to what you think he did for the City of Ottawa that demonstrated leadership. Like numerous other current and former players, he's fundraised with the Sens Foundation, but what has he done that warrants consideration for the C?

I don't get how you're going to "call out" fans for making judgements for not having access to inside info required to make that judgement. If you think current players and management are the only ones who can determine who a good leader is, that's a whole different point because the convo is pointless at that point.

My bad on the artificial inflation point, completely missed that. I thought you were referring to how a players caphit would go down as the cap increased and overlooked accounting for Tkachuk's adjustment because of his holdout.
 

JD1

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Something I wonder about is how much change is required? And, if those changes are made, how much of an improvement will we see?

For example, if we get a good, top 4 RD, a goalie and a new coach, how much improvement can we expect? That seems like a pretty substantial off season. I wonder if Staois will do something more measured initially and see how that works?
Yes that seems like a decent off season

But I think there's some subtraction needed. Martin is not calling out compete levels because the brass is pleased with the nightly effort. So I think part of cleaning has to address that
 

JD1

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Mate, I'd appreciate it if you debated the points that I made and not bring up stuff like the bolded because I've never said those words. I've never made any points about fans knowing better or said we're losing because of his leadership. It's always been "Tkachuk is a good top line winger for us, but I feel he's regressed and was given the C to early for ABC reasons".

I never said Tkachuk isn't contributing, I feel he's regressed this year in those contributions based on stats and the eye test relative to last year. Not saying he's not contributing, but that he's contributing less. You can attribute it to our weakened PP, but I think its his ES play as well. His assists/per 60 has decreased as well and from the eye test, it's just not smart hockey from him.

As for his leadership, given how rare it is to see current or former players speak negatively about any player's leadership, it's not meaningful to see anyone praise current players, last of all his teammates or former coach (all of whom have produced mediocre results). I compare the totality of his career to peers in previous roles and on-ice accomplishments which don't appear to be much relative to other captains when judging how Tkachuk is as C. He doesn't show up every night given his refusal to stand up to his pest of a brother of which we've debated before and will have to just agree to disagree.

Tkachuk has donated money to the Boys and Girls Club in 2023, what else has he done for the community? I'm legit curious as to what you think he did for the City of Ottawa that demonstrated leadership. Like numerous other current and former players, he's fundraised with the Sens Foundation, but what has he done that warrants consideration for the C?

I don't get how you're going to "call out" fans for making judgements for not having access to inside info required to make that judgement. If you think current players and management are the only ones who can determine who a good leader is, that's a whole different point because the convo is pointless at that point.

My bad on the artificial inflation point, completely missed that. I thought you were referring to how a players caphit would go down as the cap increased and overlooked accounting for Tkachuk's adjustment because of his holdout.
As far as Tkachuk regressing goes and his assists per 60, Timmy's down at least 10 from where he should be and just got his first PP goal. Give Tkachuk an assist on half of what Stuetzle hasn't scored and the numbers probably look ok.
 

Micklebot

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Mate, I'd appreciate it if you debated the points that I made and not bring up stuff like the bolded because I've never said those words. I've never made any points about fans knowing better or said we're losing because of his leadership. It's always been "Tkachuk is a good top line winger for us, but I feel he's regressed and was given the C to early for ABC reasons".
You were calling into question whether he should be captain, no? You said if the rest of the team was content with his leadership then blow it up no? Is that not because you feel you know better than them?

I never said Tkachuk isn't contributing, I feel he's regressed this year in those contributions based on stats and the eye test relative to last year. Not saying he's not contributing, but that he's contributing less. You can attribute it to our weakened PP, but I think its his ES play as well. His assists/per 60 has decreased as well and from the eye test, it's just not smart hockey from him.
His 5v5 pts/60 are actually up over last year at primary assists too, so the slight drop in assists is made up for by a bigger rise in g/60, so 5v5 he's actually producing more and by your own admission has somewhat improved defensively since Martin took over.

As for his leadership, given how rare it is to see current or former players speak negatively about any player's leadership, it's not meaningful to see anyone praise current players, last of all his teammates or former coach (all of whom have produced mediocre results). I compare the totality of his career to peers in previous roles and on-ice accomplishments which don't appear to be much relative to other captains when judging how Tkachuk is as C. He doesn't show up every night given his refusal to stand up to his pest of a brother of which we've debated before and will have to just agree to disagree.

So players and coaches going out of their way to bring it up is meaningless, but fans complaining about it is legit?

The brother thing is such a lame argument, he plays hard regardless of whether he'll fight his brother, fans need to grow up, these are people off the ice too, not throwing knuckles with family is by no means an indication he isn't showing up.
Tkachuk has donated money to the Boys and Girls Club in 2023, what else has he done for the community? I'm legit curious as to what you think he did for the City of Ottawa that demonstrated leadership. Like numerous other current and former players, he's fundraised with the Sens Foundation, but what has he done that warrants consideration for the C?

I don't get how you're going to "call out" fans for making judgements for not having access to inside info required to make that judgement. If you think current players and management are the only ones who can determine who a good leader is, that's a whole different point because the convo is pointless at that point.
Yeah, BGC club is his biggest community contribution and yes, others have also contributed to the community, I never suggested otherwise, nor did I suggest what he's done in the community makes him deserve the C, but yes it is part of the overall package.

And yes, I will call it out when broad claims about a person's leadership are made by those who aren't in the room, because frankly only the people in the room have the requisite perspective to make such claims.
My bad on the artificial inflation point, completely missed that. I thought you were referring to how a players caphit would go down as the cap increased and overlooked accounting for Tkachuk's adjustment because of his holdout.
No worries,
 
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Dionysus

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Micklebot doing the heavy lifting bringing reason to this debate. It can be difficult to parse out the reasons behind a disastrous season. A young captain who plays a unique style will be a lightning rod for criticism. Everyone is frustrated, and picking out a scapegoat is the easy way to make sense of a complex scenario.

Brady has his flaws no doubt. Don't see him as a reason why this team is underperforming though. More support around him would be ideal.

Adding physical players to complement Brady is sorely needed. Having layers of physicality would help increase Brady's effectiveness in wearing down the opposition shift after shift.

Currently there is really no consistent physicality behind Brady in the lineup to keep the momentum going. Opposing defences have time to rest while the other lines do some stick checks and light bumps.
 
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bicboi64

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You were calling into question whether he should be captain, no? You said if the rest of the team was content with his leadership then blow it up no? Is that not because you feel you know better than them?

His 5v5 pts/60 are actually up over last year at primary assists too, so the slight drop in assists is made up for by a bigger rise in g/60, so 5v5 he's actually producing more and by your own admission has somewhat improved defensively since Martin took over.

So players and coaches going out of their way to bring it up is meaningless, but fans complaining about it is legit?

The brother thing is such a lame argument, he plays hard regardless of whether he'll fight his brother, fans need to grow up, these are people off the ice too, not throwing knuckles with family is by no means an indication he isn't showing up.

Yeah, BGC club is his biggest community contribution and yes, others have also contributed to the community, I never suggested otherwise, nor did I suggest what he's done in the community makes him deserve the C, but yes it is part of the overall package.

And yes, I will call it out when broad claims about a person's leadership are made by those who aren't in the room, because frankly only the people in the room have the requisite perspective to make such claims.
My guy, every post here is literally peoples 2 cents, it's a discussion board full of nobodies. None of us have the capacity to make a claim based on what happens in the locker room, and I personally don't, I use what I see. I just hope you reconsider the metrics you use to judge a sports teams captain, because for me it will never be just a locker room or team's management. I

I called into question his captaincy but in that same paragraph I mentioned the roster shouldn't be content with anything they've done this season (at least so far). Whether it be Brady's leadership, their on ice play, their commitment to any part of the game, heck even their workouts. Given how much a disaster this season is, I place zero faith in the words of the current roster for just about anything. I'd want the roster blown up if they're content with anything, including, but not limited to Tkachuks' leadership.

No one is going out of their way to highlight Tkachuk's leadership. Tkachuk has a refreshing personality, has the name recognition, and a unique playstyle. It's easy to point to him as a leader in a rebuilding phase when the team's just traded the last of its stars, but like I said before, it is extremely rare for any NHL associated figure to criticize their peers.

The reason I ask about the off ice involvement is because you're stated that his off ice presence exemplifies his leadership. I'm asking how. Tkachuk does what numerous teammates, and previous players (captains and non-captains have done). It's great that he works with the BGC, but doing something that so many others are already doing isn't adding to his case of being qualified to be C (especially if its been after he got the C like with the BGC).
 

JD1

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How well does he have to play to drag any of the teams he's been on into the playoffs? Closest we came was last year, and we needed 7 more points to pass Florida, how much better would be have had to of played to make up 7 points in the 68 games he was healthy for?

I get that you've couched your claim with "one of the reasons" but the reality is even if he played at a level akin to his contract, at best we maybe have a long shot chance of making the playoffs once in his career.
Well, I'd like to think that if we pencilled in 23 minutes of non tire fire hockey a night, we'd be on our way there. Instead, he seems to be the fire starter most nights which is kinda my point.
 

Big Muddy

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Yes that seems like a decent off season

But I think there's some subtraction needed. Martin is not calling out compete levels because the brass is pleased with the nightly effort. So I think part of cleaning has to address that
Yes, that could happen too. I was just focused on what they might want to add with my post. If they add some expensive players (or multiple players), they might need to move some cap space. Of course, the situation with Norris and potential LTIR makes things murky. Its going to be an interesting off-season in Senatorsland for sure.
 

Micklebot

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Well, I'd like to think that if we pencilled in 23 minutes of non tire fire hockey a night, we'd be on our way there. Instead, he seems to be the fire starter most nights which is kinda my point.
We must have been a pretty impressive team aside from him last year to go 35-28-5 with him in the lineup causing tire fires 23 mins a night.

Trade him and plan the parade, right?

I'm being a bit flippant, but frankly I feel like he gets way too much blame as the new whipping boy du jour. It's seems every time we move on from a whipping boy, the problems persist, making me doubt people's ability to appropriately dole out blame.
 
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Tuna99

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lets be real, if Alfredsson or Spezza or Karlsson played d or acted like Brady throwing temper tantrums or sat out for a contract after a 50 point season and implicated the captaincy into it they would be ripped apart. and rightfully so.

And thats WHILE they were winning and leading budget teams to playoffs.

the standards for this team are in the gutter.

Dorion and DJ were afraid of Brady and his family name from the moment they drafted him - the message was keep this guy happy at all costs - even bad hockey decisions.

The message from old management (and the family frankly) is “if Brady doesn’t get what he wants he’s out the door” and we’ve been Kowtowing to him since he got here
 

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