Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Lemontree]

Well that's changing the argument, and basically makes the sole determinant did you win a cup. Whereas the previous argument seemed to be that a GM of a top tier team trading assets for players that no longer remain with the team 1-5 years later makes them bad. Seems like you found out that this type of thing isn't that abnormal, and now suddenly context is important? What was the point of even looking at Colorado in the first place, if you're just going to hand wave away anything that you're blaming other GMs/teams in the same position for.

Yes. You picked out only the trades involving the Leaf's own 1st and 2nd round picks. And that's within the already extreme cherry picking of using player assets remaining from the trade additions of a consistently top tier team made 1-5 years ago that involved picks to evaluate a GM.

If we drafted prospects with those picks, and then traded those prospects, well then it's all fine, right? No impact to the team there!
I guess we should have traded Knies instead of a 2nd last deadline. Instantly better GM!
If we traded every single 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th round pick every year? Who cares!
We should have re-signed Foligno! That would have made Dubas better! Does it matter who is lost to fit re-signings? No! Does it matter what they're paid and if they're worth it? No!

Anything else matter? Signings? Drafting? Other trades? Other decisions? Does context matter now? No? Just these very specific trades and the assets remaining from them? Cool.

Don't forget to blame Dubas for Muzzin having his career cut short, and Lou signing Marleau, and Treliving not re-signing anybody he got, to go with worse options, and Treliving trading Lafferty (too bad he apparently got nothing to "show for it"). Anything else we can blame him for? Climate change?

What do you think would determine if a GM was/is successful? You do nothing but defend the Dubas tenure. He traded pick after pick bringing in short term rentals (which he mostly overpaid for with assets) and the Leafs advanced past the 1st round of the playoffs....ONCE!. There is very little in the organization currently to show for the spent assets and no level of team success. What would you define that as?

Dubas managed the team completely short-sighted with no eye to future (even 2-3 years in the future), its akin to a gambler sitting down at the poker table and losing $1k. Buys back in and spends money hand over fist chasing the original lost $1k.

It's not fine to use the draft picks and turn around and trade the drafted players when you are using those assets for short term rentals that don't move the needle on improving the team. Knies is a 2nd round pick, he traded 2 second round picks for McCabe and Lafferty for god sakes.

You aren't happy with the construction of the team and you are blaming the GM who took over in the off-season. Everyone who knows anything about hockey knows that if you do not draft well (or at all if most of your picks are traded) it will catch up to you quickly as your organization will be void of cheap (ELC) roster players and depth.

Nobody blames Dubas for Muzzin's career being cut short but you do realize that Muzzin is currently 34 years old and played a lot of hard hockey in his days as a King, would all the Leafs problems be solved if Muzzin was currently playing (he was showing signs of wear and tear before he serious injury that cost him his career)? Kyle Dubas was the GM for 5 years, he made a smart move to acquire Muzzin when he did and it addressed something the team lacked.....apparently he spent the rest of the time patting himself on the back since he never came close to adding a valuable piece to the core that could remain with the club for multiple years.

Draft pick after draft pick traded each year and not a single player brought in that is part of our "core", absolute failure of a GM. I pray to god that Tre does better than this.

 

[Nineteen67]

More rounds, constantly better talent, drafting, trading, etc..

I don't even think the more rounds are a big deal because losing is losing, but the team on paper and what is left is so insanely different. Winnipeg has a chance every year, Calgary never had one under Treliving.

Dubois just got a better return than Tkachuk.



No one is having a meltdown but...

50% of his big signings have been bad, not a great start.

His philosophy probably scares people, and he has been a terrible GM over the years, not confidence-boosting on top of his bad start.

I am assuming the pushback on him has a lot to do with the insane praise I see people giving him for not doing much of anything.

You can’t measure Treliving success or failure yet.

If he can win 6 playoff games in one year he will have surpassed his predecessor. However, the bar is literally so low that no one will be given 5 yrs to accomplish that.

 

[notbias]

Were you this much up in arms when dubas signed Ritchie and Mrazek? (two guys that required us to use assets to get rid of).

Neither of those signings turned out good, both were dealt with thankfully, if Treliving owns up to his mistakes and deals with them, I'll be happier.

These were FAR more predictable though, that is the issue, and it is a pattern with him.

What you said also goes both ways, many people who don't care about the signings we've blundered were up in arms over those two.

But let's focus on the current GM.

You can’t measure Treliving success or failure yet.

If he can win 6 playoff games in one year he will have surpassed his predecessor. However, the bar is literally so low that no one will be given 5 yrs to accomplish that.

We have the exact same team as last year, I don't even really think this is his team yet... he's made 2 decent signings and 2 bad ones so far, that is his contribution.

If we do anything of substance it is a team filled with the coach, forward stars, defense, prospects, and goalies of the former GM.

If they fail, I still think it is on the former GM too though.

Treliving really hasn't done much besides waste some cap space, let's see if he can make a positive mark on the team first, but early results are not good.

 

[Lemontree]

Treliving is doing a good job....hasn't waste a single draft pick yet and the team is on track to finish the regular season in the same range they have the previous few seasons.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Look at our return as well as factoring in the retention while also pretending Dubas wasn't involved and it will become clear to you .

Do you know why? Kessel at the time of the trade I think gave them a list of 5 teams he was willing to go to. All contenders. At the time he was one of the highest paid players in the league. How many contenders can usually just add an 8M player in the middle of the season? Thats why we had to retain. Because of our limited suitors, our return wasn't likely to be great. We got a 1st (which Lou turned into the best starting goalie we've had since Belfour) a solid prospect at the time in Kapanen and a 3rd.

The Leafs didn't exactly have leverage in that situation. Same with Tree with the Tkachuk trade. Tkachuk gave them a few teams that he was willing to go to and he got the best possible return that he could for him.

You said yourself in the previous post that Dubas was the interim GM and that everything would've went through Shanny's final say. That return from Pitts was likely the best offer and Shanny approved the deal.

 

[Gallagbi]

Do you know why? Kessel at the time of the trade I think gave them a list of 5 teams he was willing to go to. All contenders. At the time he was one of the highest paid players in the league. How many contenders can usually just add an 8M player in the middle of the season? Thats why we had to retain. Because of our limited suitors, our return wasn't likely to be great. We got a 1st (which Lou turned into the best starting goalie we've had since Belfour) a solid prospect at the time in Kapanen and a 3rd.

The Leafs didn't exactly have leverage in that situation. Same with Tree with the Tkachuk trade. Tkachuk gave them a few teams that he was willing to go to and he got the best possible return that he could for him.

You said yourself in the previous post that Dubas was the interim GM and that everything would've went through Shanny's final say. That return from Pitts was likely the best offer and Shanny approved the deal.

8 team ntc if i remember correctly. A first and their top prospect seems like a decent deal. His production fell off a cliff in the second half and he never had the greatest reputation

 

[Nineteen67]

Neither of those signings turned out good, both were dealt with thankfully, if Treliving owns up to his mistakes and deals with them, I'll be happier.

These were FAR more predictable though, that is the issue, and it is a pattern with him.

What you said also goes both ways, many people who don't care about the signings we've blundered were up in arms over those two.

But let's focus on the current GM.



We have the exact same team as last year, I don't even really think this is his team yet... he's made 2 decent signings and 2 bad ones so far, that is his contribution.

If we do anything of substance it is a team filled with the coach, forward stars, defense, prospects, and goalies of the former GM.

If they fail, I still think it is on the former GM too though.

Treliving really hasn't done much besides waste some cap space, let's see if he can make a positive mark on the team first, but early results are not good.

I don’t know if he’s made two decent signings. Matthews? No one knows if he’s the guy to lead an NHL team to a Cup. I would have signed him, but with trepidation.

As far as wasting cap space, the options were to try Marlies or sign a couple of UFAs to fill out the roster. They had no choice, but to ice a team, so I understand why they signed Bertuzzi, Domi, Klingberg. They wouldn’t have signed for 3 million total, which is all I would have offered because all three need the Leafs more than the Leafs need them. I would have preferred to see the team 10 million under the cap, to use on a stud D during the season, but they had LTIR that needed to factored in.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We showed you proof he was injured before he was traded by being on the injury report...we showed you a direct quote from him saying he has been dealing with it for a little bit and that it flared up...

You didn't show proof of anything. You posted a capfriendly page that actually contradicts your claim and says he was healthy when he joined us, and then some vague sentence that you've made a bunch of assumptions about to match your theory. Meanwhile, everybody involved has said your theory is wrong.

He was playing normal minutes before the trade, and the only game he missed all year was the one right before the trade deadline, which is normal. He said he was fine. Everybody involved said he was fine. Our team doctors said he was fine. He looked great and healthy when he first got here. Foligno has talked about the debilitating injury he got on May 3rd with us, and how it impacted him and forced him to change his game in ways he hadn't before. We watched it happen and behind the scenes footage.

It sucks when players get injured, and it sucks even more when it happens to somebody you've invested into at an important moment, but players get injured. That's hockey. It's okay to just accept the injuries for what they are, instead of creating big conspiracy theories about it.

 

[hotpaws]

Do you know why? Kessel at the time of the trade I think gave them a list of 5 teams he was willing to go to. All contenders. At the time he was one of the highest paid players in the league. How many contenders can usually just add an 8M player in the middle of the season? Thats why we had to retain. Because of our limited suitors, our return wasn't likely to be great. We got a 1st (which Lou turned into the best starting goalie we've had since Belfour) a solid prospect at the time in Kapanen and a 3rd.

The Leafs didn't exactly have leverage in that situation. Same with Tree with the Tkachuk trade. Tkachuk gave them a few teams that he was willing to go to and he got the best possible return that he could for him.

You said yourself in the previous post that Dubas was the interim GM and that everything would've went through Shanny's final say. That return from Pitts was likely the best offer and Shanny approved the deal.

it was a 8 team trade list and the trade happened July 1st not mid season

we got Kap a1st and a 3rd, they got Kessel and a 2nd plus we retained for years

that's not what most people would consider a fair return but the main thing is to shift any blame from Dubas on to someone else

 

[Lemontree]

it was a 8 team trade list and the trade happened July 1st not mid season

we got Kap a1st and a 3rd, they got Kessel and a 2nd plus we retained for years

that's not what most people would consider a fair return but the main thing is to shift any blame from Dubas on to someone else

That seems to be the game for some around here. There are still a couple that post here that think that things only went "south" starting in mid-May of 2023. Seemingly everything before that was going fantastic.

 

[thusk]

Not sure what season you're thinking of, I thought our D was much improved and was quite good for several years there, and I thought we looked very much like a contender last season, even without Muzzin.

Overall goals against doesn't necessarily show quality of D - agree 100%, defence is a team game and forwards doing their job is a huge part of it, and of course goaltending as well.

Anyway, I think Dubas did an excellent job rebuilding our D, and overall he'd be getting a lot more credit for the work he did here if our "leaders" hadn't kept choking year after year. But whatever, if you don't agree that's fine, and I do hate the Marner contract which IMO was his biggest mistake and might be the reason Nylander hasn't signed yet, but that's another story. Dubas was OK, so far Treliving has been no better than OK, I expect what we'll see him do is the same as Dubas - keep the core (hopefully Nylander will stay) and trade away futures trying to win now. Only one pick in the first two rounds coming in the next two years, he'll probably trade that away (or a top prospect, maybe both) so I fear the cupboards will be bare and the party will be all but over in the not too distant future. Maybe a miracle will happen and we'll this spring, I'm not too optimistic though.

the only season leafs was looking like a real contender was 2 year ago... last season the reality is toronto had been totally outplayed by tampa. they was unable to move the puck out of his zone when rielly was off the ice but find a way to be be opportunist in 1st round but when the same problen came back in 2nd round, last had no answer for florida defensive structure

the biggest mistake dubas did was to spend 11M on a center than toronto didn't need with already matthews and kadri as #1 and 2 unstead of usi g that money to build a D

 

[Gary Nylund]

the only season leafs was looking like a real contender was 2 year ago... last season the reality is toronto had been totally outplayed by tampa. they was unable to move the puck out of his zone when rielly was off the ice but find a way to be be opportunist in 1st round but when the same problen came back in 2nd round, last had no answer for florida defensive structure

the biggest mistake dubas did was to spend 11M on a center than toronto didn't need with already matthews and kadri as #1 and 2 unstead of usi g that money to build a D

I mean in theory, on paper etc. The team had a pretty good regular season, then added ROR, Schenn, McCabe and a couple of other minor pieces, on paper I thought it was the best team we've had in over 50 years.

Whatever, it's all over now and with the cupboards not exactly full and one pick in the top 2 rounds in the next 2 years, the window's starting to close.

 

[thusk]

I mean in theory, on paper etc. The team had a pretty good regular season, then added ROR, Schenn, McCabe and a couple of other minor pieces, on paper I thought it was the best team we've had in over 50 years.

Whatever, it's all over now and with the cupboards not exactly full and one pick in the top 2 rounds in the next 2 years, the window's starting to close.

in paper yes leafs d was looking fine and was looking good in regular season... but come playoff every weakness become even bigger

brodie is great defensivly but with the puck hes not the best

schenn/mccabe/holl gio good defensivly but bring nothing in transition

liljegren was okay

5 of 6 staring D was at best average in transition. so at the end leafs when the 1 of 6 was off the ice, defend defend and defend again. the reason is not because they was not able to make defensive play and get the puck on their stick but when they had it on the stick, theybwas unable to make play. so they lost the puck came back to defend, made defensive play lost the puck came back and defend, made defensive play lost the puck and defend and oopps allowing a goal..

 

[Peasy]

in paper yes leafs d was looking fine and was looking good in regular season... but come playoff every weakness become even bigger

brodie is great defensivly but with the puck hes not the best

schenn/mccabe/holl gio good defensivly but bring nothing in transition

liljegren was okay

5 of 6 staring D was at best average in transition. so at the end leafs when the 1 of 6 was off the ice, defend defend and defend again. the reason is not because they was not able to make defensive play and get the puck on their stick but when they had it on the stick, theybwas unable to make play. so they lost the puck came back to defend, made defensive play lost the puck came back and defend, made defensive play lost the puck and defend and oopps allowing a goal..

Yeah I dont understand how people still dont realize this lol. Theres more to the defence in today's modern game than just "defending". Leafs have been punished so often in playoff series for having poor puck moving defencemen. Teams will just target them and continue to dump it into their corner hoping to create turnovers.

 

[thusk]

Yeah I dont understand how people still dont realize this lol. Theres more to the defence in today's modern game than just "defending". Leafs have been punished so often in playoff series for having poor puck moving defencemen. Teams will just target them and continue to dump it into their corner hoping to create turnovers.

exavtly it wqs working in the begginning of 2000 when D was abke to hold and hook like they want but in modern hockey. The game is just so fast and defensive structure so good than you need your D to create offensive...


why colorado ( we can say the same thing about tampa) had been so good was not the way they defend who was better than leafs, they just defending less.. with makar, toews; girard, byram... the puck was moving so quick than they didn't need to play as much in the defensive end so unstead of attacking like 40 % of the time and defending 50 like toronto did last season, they was attracking like 55% and defending 35% of the time... sure thats will impact your game.

a lot of leafs fan just asking to be better on 50% leafs defending unstead to try to change the % of time you will defend, so at the same time changing the number of time you will attacking ( so create more goal)

 

[cyris]

Yes, Yes.

And I don't think people are really defending Treliving, more so just saying let him have a chance to do something of significance and then judge. He hasn't even been the gm for 6 months yet. I was never a fan of the hiring, but the meltdowns people are having from him are a bit much imo.

He is going to get his chance to leave his mark on this team. It’s not like he is going anywhere any time soon.
But all we can go on right now is the mess he left behind in Calgary and the sub par moves he has made here so far.
People have a legitimate reason to be concerned about him but no matter what we think about it he will get his opportunity to change our minds.

It would be nice to be able to talk about what he is doing here without some people crying about the last guy. Some of it is fair, like when talking about the cap space Tre now has to work with. But most of it is just pointless whataboutisms.

Were you this much up in arms when dubas signed Ritchie and Mrazek? (two guys that required us to use assets to get rid of).

How is that at all relevant to the signings Tre has made.
One guy making bad signings doesn’t excuse the current guy doing it.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

exavtly it wqs working in the begginning of 2000 when D was abke to hold and hook like they want but in modern hockey. The game is just so fast and defensive structure so good than you need your D to create offensive...


why colorado ( we can say the same thing about tampa) had been so good was not the way they defend who was better than leafs, they just defending less.. with makar, toews; girard, byram... the puck was moving so quick than they didn't need to play as much in the defensive end so unstead of attacking like 40 % of the time and defending 50 like toronto did last season, they was attracking like 55% and defending 35% of the time... sure thats will impact your game.

a lot of leafs fan just asking to be better on 50% leafs defending unstead to try to change the % of time you will defend

They tried puck movers only with Dubas' anti-hockey philosophy. It failed spectacularly.

You still have to defend if you want to win in the playoffs because it's a game on ice, with no out of bounds, and tight checking. You will be stuck in your zone no matter what on the course to winning a Cup. Trying to rewrite 100+ years of history (including present day) is silly. It's not a binary thing.

 

[thusk]

They tried puck movers only with Dubas' anti-hockey philosophy. It failed spectacularly.

You still have to defend if you want to win in the playoffs because it's a game on ice, with no out of bounds, and tight checking. You will be stuck in your zone no matter what on the course to winning a Cup. Trying to rewrite 100+ years of history (including present day) is silly. It's not a binary thing.

you need both, you need a balanced D who can play both side... leafs just past from a d who was only able to move the puck(rielly/ gardiner/zaitsev) to an other extrem with D only good to defend. Both extrem just doesn't work

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

you need both, you need a balanced D who can play both side... leafs just past from a d who was only able to move the puck(rielly/ gardiner/zaitsev) to an other extrem with D only good to defend. Both extrem just doesn't work

Try fitting that into the salary cap when you have to overpay your core every 4-5 years when the cap goes up.

 

[thusk]

Try fitting that into the salary cap when you have to overpay your core every 4-5 years when the cap goes up.

thats what i said previously, the biggest mistake dubas did was to spend 11 M on a 2nd V when they already had 2 pretty good and forgot the d

but right now i think an opportunity just open up at TDL and/or next summer

 

[Gallagbi]

you need both, you need a balanced D who can play both side... leafs just past from a d who was only able to move the puck(rielly/ gardiner/zaitsev) to an other extrem with D only good to defend. Both extrem just doesn't work

Z was an awful puck mover. Rielly is still here.

Brodie, McCabe, Gio, Lilj can all transition the puck fine, but dont generate offense for themselves. Basically they can move the puck but struggle to create offense. Gio has good instincts, but not the speed to match anymore

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

They tried puck movers only with Dubas' anti-hockey philosophy. It failed spectacularly.

You still have to defend if you want to win in the playoffs because it's a game on ice, with no out of bounds, and tight checking. You will be stuck in your zone no matter what on the course to winning a Cup. Trying to rewrite 100+ years of history (including present day) is silly. It's not a binary thing.

I agree. We tried the smaller, lighter puck movers and they couldn't stop a cycle to get the puck to move it. We need 3 Muzzin types who can stop a cycle and make a pass out of the zone. I think Vegas has those types...so they exist besides Muzzin himself....we just need to get a few of them. We are sheltering everyone so much that it's not funny.

 

[thusk]

Z was an awful puck mover. Rielly is still here.

Brodie, McCabe, Gio, Lilj can all transition the puck fine, but dont generate offense for themselves. Basically they can move the puck but struggle to create offense. Gio has good instincts, but not the speed to match anymore

i see 3 different type of transition play

1-making short quick pass, short/ middles they all able to do it, im agree but its the easiest part of transition

2-making stretche pass rielly is the only able...

3-carry the puck and using free space on the ice, rielly is the only d able

when the only thing your D are able to do is short/middle pass, whats opposite team will do? just playing a trap in neutral zone, cancel every short/middle pass and let you miss your play

 

[Gallagbi]

i see 3 different type of transition play

1-making short quick pass, short/ middles they all able to do it, im agree but its the easiest part of transition

2-making stretche pass rielly is the only able...

3-carry the puck and using free space on the ice, rielly is the only d able

when the only thing your D are able to do is short/middle pass, whats opposite team will do? just playing a trap in neutral zone, cancel every short/middle pass and let you miss your play

Most teams arent nailing stretch passes on the regular and Id argue our transition is fine its the actual offense lacking. They dont jump into plays as often as other teams and we dont use them as much as others for generating offense from the point. If i had to guess they're cautious if the transition it can lead to

But aside from that, id say our D is still better in transiton than the Zaitsev Gardiner teams. That team lost to Boston because the entire RD couldn't make a play. They targeted them all series long

 

[thusk]

Most teams arent nailing stretch passes on the regular and Id argue our transition is fine its the actual offense lacking. They dont jump into plays as often as other teams and we dont use them as much as others for generating offense from the point. If i had to guess they're cautious if the transition it can lead to

But aside from that, id say our D is still better in transiton than the Zaitsev Gardiner teams. That team lost to Boston because the entire RD couldn't make a play. They targeted them all series long

just last season... leafs allowed 5 goal vs 1 goal for resulting of streche pass and doesn't talk about high scoring chance would probably look like similar 5/1 ratio

you add lack of ability to carry the puck

lack of ability to create offensive in the offensive

start to be a lot of lack leafs need to overcome on every series they played...