Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Lemontree]

Muzzin left the organization due to injuries which is nobody's fault. If you're gonna list that as a departure, you might as well list Amirov as wasted asset as well since he also left the organization due to injury.

I listed Muzzin as one of the few remaining assets in the organization, with a note of LTIR until retirement, because that is the situation. Would you like him listed as a #2 dman so it looks better and ignores the reality. Amirov "left the organization due to injury". You are something.

 

[notbias]

It's fine if some people are unsure of Tre as the GM, unless you have built a Stanley Cup winning roster, there should be questions on if you are capable of doing it. This is the bar that the previous Leafs GM set (I posted this in another thread):

2019 1st round pick #22, Sean Durzi, Carl Grundstrom for Jake Muzzin.
2020 1st round pick #13 to get rid of Marleau contract (1 year).
2021 1st round pick #25 for Nick Foligno.
2022 1st round pick #25 and Petr Mrazek for 2022 2nd round pick (#38 - Fraser Minten)
2022 2nd round pick (#58) and 2023 2nd round pick (#57) for Mark Giordano and Colin Blackwell.
2023 1st round pick (#25) and 2024 2nd round pick (# TBD) for Ryan O'Reilly and Noel Acciari.
2025 1st round pick (#TBD) and 2026 2nd round pick (#TBD) for Jake McCabe and Sam Lafferty).
2025 2nd round pick (#TBD) with Nick Ritchie for Ryan Dzingel and Ilya Lybushkin.

Since 2019, talking only about 1st and 2 round draft picks. Dubas traded away 6 Leafs first round picks (including 2025) and 5 Leafs 2nd round picks including 2024, 2025, 2026). What do the Toronto Maple Leafs organization in 2023 have to show for it?

Mark Giordino (roster)
Jake McCabe (roster)
Fraser Minten (prospect)
Jake Muzzin (LTIR until retirement)

I can't imagine that Tre is going to do a worse job from an asset management perspective.

The Monahan trade is worse than any of these from an asset management perspective, so don't be too sure.

 

[Apex Predator]

Where did I mention that it was Dubas fault that Muzzin got injured? I posted the trades of the 1st and 2nd round Leaf draft picks moved since 2019 and the assets left in the organization.

Did you notice that Amirov or the draft pick used to draft Amirov was not mentioned because that was not the Leafs 1st round pick. I also didn't include others teams 1st or 2nd picks traded by Dubas, just the picks which is allotted to each team each season (ie: Leafs).

You should examine your life based on your comment regarding Amirov, I haven't noticed a single poster "blame" Dubas or use that draft pick as a negative. You should be ashamed of yourself for brining up Amirov, his cancer diagnosis and his passing in that context.


I could be wrong but I don't think Dubas was the GM when Kasperi Kapanen was acquired.

Wasn’t Dubas and Hunter the one that traded kessel for kapanen?

 

[Lemontree]

Wasn’t Dubas and Hunter the one that traded kessel for kapanen?

Maybe, I thought it was Lou but not confident enough that I would bet on it.

The Monahan trade is worse than any of these from an asset management perspective, so don't be too sure.

We will see......looks to be shaping up to the Marleau contract dump trade.

 

[notbias]

Maybe, I thought it was Lou but not confident enough that I would bet on it.


We will see......looks to be shaping up to the Marleau contract dump trade.

Monahan is a serviceable player.

Marleau was a buyout.

In just over a year Treliving brought in this:

Huberdeau
Weeger
Jarnkrok
Toffoli
1x 1st
1x 2nd

this only cost him:

Tkachuk
Monahan
Bennett
2x 1st
1x 2nd
1x 3rd
2x 4th
1x 5th
1x 7th

so he is left with Huberdeau and Weeger... at least one of which is a cap dump...

I'd be far more worried about this kind of damage...

 

[Lemontree]

Monahan is a serviceable player.

Marleau was a buyout.

In just over a year Treliving brought in this:

Huberdeau
Weeger
Jarnkrok
Toffoli
1x 1st
1x 2nd

this only cost him:

Tkachuk
Monahan
Bennett
2x 1st
1x 2nd
1x 3rd
2x 4th
1x 5th
1x 7th

so he is left with Huberdeau and Weeger... at least one of which is a cap dump...

I'd be far more worried about this kind of damage...

Once again, I'm interested in what the GM will do as the GM of the TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS.

Weird, that list doesn't show 1st and 2nd round picks every year (and future years) for a long list of rental players who made little to no impact. 1 playoff round victory in the tenure of Kyle Dubas as the GM of the TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS.

 

[LeafEgo]

Treliving took over a month before free agency, but he was also an active GM the entire time prior. This idea that he had to start from scratch on everything once coming here is hilarious. He didn't have three amigo contracts to deal with. He had two, and only did anything with one. Treliving had it made. Dubas handed him a top tier team, with all of the most important players signed, a bunch of cap space and available roster spots to make his mark on the team's depth, a solid prospect pool with multiple NHL-ready ELCs, and a wide range of options and paths. And so far, all of the best parts of the team are things Treliving inherited, and all of the worst parts of the team are things Treliving did.

Tre took over a fringe top 10 team, results five years running, with an overpaid core poorly developed by amateurs, that haven't worked and was left no options to do anything about it. Their new contracts are not opportunities, they're attempts to claw back as much damage as possible and mitigate the significant financial competitive disadvantages that were created with virtually no leverage.

Our prospect pool is ranked near the bottom and we are pick depleted. That's a result of mortgaging the future to achieve no progress during a time where progress seemed almost a guarentee.

Rolling into a scandal riddled Toronto a few weeks before a poor free agency pool is not an environment to course correct a team that has been damaged for years, and unable to achieve results because of it.

You won't be able to understand the GM's moves, or evaluate him appropriately, until you appreciate the reality of the situation. We need to change from predictable and consistent losing to an honest chance at winning, and valuable change takes time.

He walked into a complete mess, but I'm not one for excuses. He signed up to it so I'm expecting him to deliver regardless - he does need time though.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Monahan is a serviceable player.

Marleau was a buyout.

In just over a year Treliving brought in this:

Huberdeau
Weeger
Jarnkrok
Toffoli
1x 1st
1x 2nd

this only cost him:

Tkachuk
Monahan
Bennett
2x 1st
1x 2nd
1x 3rd
2x 4th
1x 5th
1x 7th

so he is left with Huberdeau and Weeger... at least one of which is a cap dump...

I'd be far more worried about this kind of damage...

You can't really compare the Calgary situation to here. Fresh off a division title, there was no way ownership was going to rebuild/retool despite their two stars wanting out. They acquired immediate help for Tkachuk, who pretty much handcuffed them with his choice of destination. Seemed like Calgary was praised for the return at the time

They re-signed Huberdeau and Weegar to avoid another UFA situation and remain competitive. Overpaid, sure, but who the hell predicted this downfall for Huberdeau? They brought in Naz to fill another hole and had to unload Monahan who wasn't going to play many games for them (played only 25 last year). Again, wanted to compete last year.

Ownership had a lot of say in the direction of the team, especially with the new arena being ready in a few years. The last thing they wanted was a decline in season ticket holders because the product wasn't good. The best route was to retool/rebuild, but as they mentioned this past off-season, they hate using the R word.

Dubas wasn't anything special....not sure why some think it was a huge loss. Is Treliving an upgrade? Who knows, but I certainly don't put much stock into what he did in Calgary. He was the definition of a puppet.

 

[notbias]

You can't really compare the Calgary situation to here. Fresh off a division title, there was no way ownership was going to rebuild/retool despite their two stars wanting out. They acquired immediate help for Tkachuk, who pretty much handcuffed them with his choice of destination. Seemed like Calgary was praised for the return at the time

They re-signed Huberdeau and Weegar to avoid another UFA situation and remain competitive. Overpaid, sure, but who the hell predicted this downfall for Huberdeau? They brought in Naz to fill another hole and had to unload Monahan who wasn't going to play many games for them (played only 25 last year). Again, wanted to compete last year.

Ownership had a lot of say in the direction of the team, especially with the new arena being ready in a few years. The last thing they wanted was a decline in season ticket holders because the product wasn't good. The best route was to retool/rebuild, but as they mentioned this past off-season, they hate using the R word.

Dubas wasn't anything special....not sure why some think it was a huge loss. Is Treliving an upgrade? Who knows, but I certainly don't put much stock into what he did in Calgary. He was the definition of a puppet.

So they are hiring another rookie GM it sounds like... weird people are excited.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's fine if some people are unsure of Tre as the GM, unless you have built a Stanley Cup winning roster, there should be questions on if you are capable of doing it. This is the bar that the previous Leafs GM set (I posted this in another thread):

2019 1st round pick #22, Sean Durzi, Carl Grundstrom for Jake Muzzin.
2020 1st round pick #13 to get rid of Marleau contract (1 year).
2021 1st round pick #25 for Nick Foligno.
2022 1st round pick #25 and Petr Mrazek for 2022 2nd round pick (#38 - Fraser Minten)
2022 2nd round pick (#58) and 2023 2nd round pick (#57) for Mark Giordano and Colin Blackwell.
2023 1st round pick (#25) and 2024 2nd round pick (# TBD) for Ryan O'Reilly and Noel Acciari.
2025 1st round pick (#TBD) and 2026 2nd round pick (#TBD) for Jake McCabe and Sam Lafferty).
2025 2nd round pick (#TBD) with Nick Ritchie for Ryan Dzingel and Ilya Lybushkin.

Since 2019, talking only about 1st and 2 round draft picks. Dubas traded away 6 Leafs first round picks (including 2025) and 5 Leafs 2nd round picks including 2024, 2025, 2026). What do the Toronto Maple Leafs organization in 2023 have to show for it?

Mark Giordino (roster)
Jake McCabe (roster)
Fraser Minten (prospect)
Jake Muzzin (LTIR until retirement)

I can't imagine that Tre is going to do a worse job from an asset management perspective.

I've been a big critic of Dubas, but I didn't realize it was that bad.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

he barely got in the lineup with us and Wash who knew him much better than us added a 1st to him to get a similar but younger player , so good for him for having a good season so far but still dosen't mean we should have had high expectations for him and brought him back

we also have a younger similar player in Timmins so that also probably played a role in letting him walk

It never made any sense to sign a guy that sucks at defense but puts up points to 4.5M when we had two cheaper options with Gus and Timmins that both can handle doing the same thing and arguably play better D. Gus is having a career year but he has always demonstrated that he could produce. Especially on the PP.

The Domi, Bert and Reaves signings all at least had some sound logic behind them but the Klingberg signing had me scratching my head that day for sure.

 

[Bomber0104]

It's fine if some people are unsure of Tre as the GM, unless you have built a Stanley Cup winning roster, there should be questions on if you are capable of doing it. This is the bar that the previous Leafs GM set (I posted this in another thread):

2019 1st round pick #22, Sean Durzi, Carl Grundstrom for Jake Muzzin.
2020 1st round pick #13 to get rid of Marleau contract (1 year).
2021 1st round pick #25 for Nick Foligno.
2022 1st round pick #25 and Petr Mrazek for 2022 2nd round pick (#38 - Fraser Minten)
2022 2nd round pick (#58) and 2023 2nd round pick (#57) for Mark Giordano and Colin Blackwell.
2023 1st round pick (#25) and 2024 2nd round pick (# TBD) for Ryan O'Reilly and Noel Acciari.
2025 1st round pick (#TBD) and 2026 2nd round pick (#TBD) for Jake McCabe and Sam Lafferty).
2025 2nd round pick (#TBD) with Nick Ritchie for Ryan Dzingel and Ilya Lybushkin.

Since 2019, talking only about 1st and 2 round draft picks. Dubas traded away 6 Leafs first round picks (including 2025) and 5 Leafs 2nd round picks including 2024, 2025, 2026). What do the Toronto Maple Leafs organization in 2023 have to show for it?

Mark Giordino (roster)
Jake McCabe (roster)
Fraser Minten (prospect)
Jake Muzzin (LTIR until retirement)

I can't imagine that Tre is going to do a worse job from an asset management perspective.

Dubas spent our picks and prospects like a teenager with their parent's credit card.

And for what? A 2nd round appearance, and quick ejection. Round of applause, everyone

Absolute loser GM who wasted 5 whole years of prime-time for this organization.

There's truly no limit to describe how badly Kyle Dubas blew such a huge opportunity in Toronto to ice a true winner.

He just didn't (possibly still doesn't) understand the pro game and what it takes to win.

We will all look back on this time as the one where we actually had a chance to win but we left it in the hands of a doll-faced no-nothing whose closest experience to the game itself was taping sticks for junior players for his grandparents' team.

 

[Bomber0104]

It never made any sense to sign a guy that sucks at defense but puts up points to 4.5M when we had two cheaper options with Gus and Timmins that both can handle doing the same thing and arguably play better D. Gus is having a career year but he has always demonstrated that he could produce. Especially on the PP.

The Domi, Bert and Reaves signings all at least had some sound logic behind them but the Klingberg signing had me scratching my head that day for sure.

Kyle Dubas' long-term strategy (as realized) for his blue line was Rielly (Holdover from Burke), McCabe, Lilly (Holdover from Lou), TJ Brodie, and nothing else.

Assuming the plan was to play rookies with those players, that is by-and-far the most under-funded and cap-starved defence league-wide.

Even with Klingberg at $4.5m signed by Treliving, that defence is still the most cap-starved in near-absolute and relative terms to the rest of the league.

It almost looks like Dubas didn't really care about what happened after his final year with the Leafs, instead he wanted to go out with a bang and demonstrate what 5 years of GM'ing can really do for a team: a pitiful 2nd round appearance.

That's a disgraceful outcome no matter how hard you try to spin it.

 

[TheRumble]

I'm really enjoying how this thread became just a giant circlejerk for people to shit on Dubas in order to avoid judging Treliving's moves. The name of the thread is literally "Brad Treliving is doing a good job"

I can't name names due to a previous ban but:

- A guy who I once had to spend three comments teaching him the basics of arithmetic
- A guy who often claims to have CTE whenever he's proven wrong
- A guy who actively cheers for the Leafs to get bad players to own the "Dubisites"
- A guy who pins Muzzin's injury on Dubas trading for him 3 years earlier
- A bunch of people who are miffed that we have a weak prospect pool given our recent finishes in the regular season.

If we're gonna give Treliving a mulligan then lets. Klingberg looks like he's gonna go on LTIR so that erases 1 bad signing (with respect to Klingberg's health). Reaves can be buried for a $200K cap hit, that mitigates the second awful signing (for three years). So that only leaves David Kampf as the third bad signing to deal with, so lets give him a straight up mulligan for that. Bertuzzi and Domi have shown enough that they can be given a TBD. Since we're giving him a mulligan on all his bad moves the only thing he's done so far is extend Matthews and sign Domi and Bertuzzi to one year deals.

From this point onwards, Treliving has:

- He has 1 full season
- The 2024 Draft which the Leafs have at least one pick in every round except Round 2
- The 2024 Free Agency Period where the Leafs will conservatively have ~$20, million in cap space to spend on the holes.

The cap space: Expected NHL cap jump up $4 million, Brodie Expiring of $5 million. Nylander's expiring 6.9 million, Bertuzzi expiring at $5.5 million, Domi expiring at $3 million. Klingberg expiring at $4.1 million. Muzzin and Murray both expiring and being removed from LTIR. - That's $28 million in cap space.

Some prominent under 30 names in the 2024 Free Agent Class:

Dmen: Brady Skjei, Noah Hanfin, Brett Pesce, Nikita Zadorov, Brandon Montour,

Forwards: Sam Reinhart, Jake Guentzel, Elias Lindholm, Jake DeBrusk, Jack Roslovic,

This is as clean of a slate as a GM can ask for. Nothing from this point on can be handwaved away by saying "BUT KYLE DUBAS!"

 

[Bomber0104]

I'm really enjoying how this thread became just a giant circlejerk for people to shit on Dubas in order to avoid judging Treliving's moves. The name of the thread is literally "Brad Treliving is doing a good job"

I can't name names due to a previous ban but:

- A guy who I once had to spend three comments teaching him the basics of arithmetic
- A guy who often claims to have CTE whenever he's proven wrong
- A guy who actively cheers for the Leafs to get bad players to own the "Dubisites"
- A guy who pins Muzzin's injury on Dubas trading for him 3 years earlier
- A bunch of people who are miffed that we have a weak prospect pool given our recent finishes in the regular season.

If we're gonna give Treliving a mulligan then lets. Klingberg looks like he's gonna go on LTIR so that erases 1 bad signing (with respect to Klingberg's health). Reaves can be buried for a $200K cap hit, that mitigates the second awful signing (for three years). So that only leaves David Kampf as the third bad signing to deal with, so lets give him a straight up mulligan for that. Bertuzzi and Domi have shown enough that they can be given a TBD. Since we're giving him a mulligan on all his bad moves the only thing he's done so far is extend Matthews and sign Domi and Bertuzzi to one year deals.

From this point onwards, Treliving has:

- He has 1 full season
- The 2024 Draft which the Leafs have at least one pick in every round except Round 2
- The 2024 Free Agency Period where the Leafs will conservatively have ~$20, million in cap space to spend on the holes.

The cap space: Expected NHL cap jump up $4 million, Brodie Expiring of $5 million. Nylander's expiring 6.9 million, Bertuzzi expiring at $5.5 million, Domi expiring at $3 million. Klingberg expiring at $4.1 million. Muzzin and Murray both expiring and being removed from LTIR. - That's $28 million in cap space.

Some prominent under 30 names in the 2024 Free Agent Class:

Dmen: Brady Skjei, Noah Hanfin, Brett Pesce, Nikita Zadorov, Brandon Montour,

Forwards: Sam Reinhart, Jake Guentzel, Elias Lindholm, Jake DeBrusk, Jack Roslovic,

This is as clean of a slate as a GM can ask for. Nothing from this point on can be handwaved away by saying "BUT KYLE DUBAS!"

Kyle Dubas was here 5 years and delivered a 2nd round apperance.

Brad Treliving has been here for 17 games of a partial season with a winning record.

The fact you're even comparing them in some sort of head-to-head GM-off says it all enough.

You either haven't accepted the fact that Kyle Dubas was fired or haven't come to terms that this person was simply a failure and you watched 5 years of Maple Leafs hockey go POOF into thin air as if it never existed, because of his managerial incomptence. Or both, and you just love supporting career losers like Dubas, who really knows with your ilk anyway!

5 whole years. Losing in the first round in four of them. And then getting nearly skunked in the single time they got to the second.

Wow!

Treliving I guess is your punching bag and I say have at him, it just makes you look like an even bigger Dubie sucker-upper who's in loser-denial.

 

[TheRumble]

Kyle Dubas was here 5 years and delivered a 2nd round apperance.

Brad Treliving has been here for 17 games of a partial season with a winning record.

The fact you're even comparing them in some sort of head-to-head GM-off says it all enough.

You either haven't accepted the fact that Kyle Dubas was fired or haven't come to terms that this person was simply a failure and you watched 5 years of Maple Leafs hockey POOF into thin air as if it never existed, because of his managerial incomptence.

Treliving I guess is your punching bag and I say have at him, it just makes you look like an even bigger Dubie sucker-upper who's in loser-denial.

Excusez moi mais parlez vous francais?

I literally said, lets give Brad Treliving a mulligan for all the bad moves he's made because they're all easily dealt with with cap shenanigans. We are only judging him from this point onwards for:

1) The Bertuzzi and Domi signings which I clearly said are TBD. This is an abbreviation for To Be Determined.

2) The Matthews extension. For the record, I wish it was longer but it seems like Matthews wanted to keep it short.

3) Whatever he does from this point onwards.

The only people I insulted are the unnamed commenters which have dominated the last 20 or so pages.

Written on November 4th by me in this very thread:

The new GM thought we wre close to contention and were only a few pieces away so he brought in four new guys that he felt could add those missing parts. Whether he's right or wrong, we'll have the rest of the season to judge that.

But all GMs should get 1 full season (currently underway) and 1 full off season so I'm gonna continue to preach that as how Brad should be judged. He'll have $25+ million in cap space to work with in the off season and a full sleight of draft picks - we have a pick in every round of the 24 draft except for the 2nd. He can make moves that will set the team up long term. His decisions around Nylander and Marner will largely determine his legacy here.

 

[cyris]

yup it was lou

Kappy?
No he wasn’t. It was Dubas when he was the interim GM before Lou was hired

 

[Bomber0104]

Excusez moi mais parlez vous francais?

I literally said, lets give Brad Treliving a mulligan for all the bad moves he's made because they're all easily dealt with with cap shenanigans. We are only judging him from this point onwards for:

1) The Bertuzzi and Domi signings which I clearly said are TBD. This is an abbreviation for To Be Determined.

2) The Matthews extension. For the record, I wish it was longer but it seems like Matthews wanted to keep it short.

3) Whatever he does from this point onwards.

The only people I insulted are the unnamed commenters which have dominated the last 20 or so pages.

Written on November 4th by me in this very thread:

Or to summarize, wait and see until we have an appreciable measure to judge from?

Nothing that's been done managerially should be shocking. Matthews was taken care of (organizationally a top priority) and low-risk signings were made in haste with a particular emphasis on grit.

No boats were rocked in the off-season at all, but it was almost like we had a brand-new GM come aboard who's never studied our team in any sort of detail before, with a month time-table to make key decisions, and instead opted for the easy band-aids in lieu of that.

One thing I'll say is how I really do like how high the expectations have all of the sudden become for management of the Leafs.

It would have been great to have heard this critical thinking when the old GM was making hilariously bad moves right before our very eyes and only delivering Toronto a single playoff round win in 5 years.

All of a sudden we're reading this now after 17 games with the new GM...

I'm not buying it for one second.

It reeks of something.

 

[kb]

Tre took over a fringe top 10 team, results five years running, with an overpaid core poorly developed by amateurs, that haven't worked and was left no options to do anything about it. Their new contracts are not opportunities, they're attempts to claw back as much damage as possible and mitigate the significant financial competitive disadvantages that were created with virtually no leverage.

Our prospect pool is ranked near the bottom and we are pick depleted. That's a result of mortgaging the future to achieve no progress during a time where progress seemed almost a guarentee.

Rolling into a scandal riddled Toronto a few weeks before a poor free agency pool is not an environment to course correct a team that has been damaged for years, and unable to achieve results because of it.

You won't be able to understand the GM's moves, or evaluate him appropriately, until you appreciate the reality of the situation. We need to change from predictable and consistent losing to an honest chance at winning, and valuable change takes time.

He walked into a complete mess, but I'm not one for excuses. He signed up to it so I'm expecting him to deliver regardless - he does need time though.

lol

 

[arso40]

Kappy?
No he wasn’t. It was Dubas when he was the interim GM before Lou was hired

How was dubas interim before Lou was hired?

 

[hotpaws]

How was dubas interim before Lou was hired?

Dubas and Hunter were co GM's with different responsibilities and along with Shanny ran the team as a GM by committee .

Dubas ran point on trades and when he/they f***ed up the Kessel trade Lou was brought in .

 

[cyris]

How was dubas interim before Lou was hired?

Dubas and Hunter were both hired by Shanny as AGMs before Lou was hired as the GM.
When Nonis was fired Dubas and Hunter were made co-interim GMs. With Dubas handing trades and signings and Hunter drafting and development.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Kyle Dubas was here 5 years and delivered a 2nd round apperance.

Brad Treliving has been here for 17 games of a partial season with a winning record.

The fact you're even comparing them in some sort of head-to-head GM-off says it all enough.

You either haven't accepted the fact that Kyle Dubas was fired or haven't come to terms that this person was simply a failure and you watched 5 years of Maple Leafs hockey go POOF into thin air as if it never existed, because of his managerial incomptence. Or both, and you just love supporting career losers like Dubas, who really knows with your ilk anyway!

5 whole years. Losing in the first round in four of them. And then getting nearly skunked in the single time they got to the second.

Wow!

Treliving I guess is your punching bag and I say have at him, it just makes you look like an even bigger Dubie sucker-upper who's in loser-denial.

Yep. Kyle got 5 years, so Brad deserves that too. If Brad can get us to the 2nd round just once, he too can be declared an outside of the box thinking genius.

 

[arso40]

Dubas and Hunter were co GM's with different responsibilities and along with Shanny ran the team as a GM by committee .

Dubas ran point on trades and when he/they f***ed up the Kessel trade Lou was brought in .

Makes sense cause we got fleeced

 

[hotpaws]

Makes sense cause we got fleeced

lucky for us that they didn't also pull the trigger on trading Neon Dion since the rumor was teams were looking for 2m or more in retention