Brad Treliving ended the myth in just over 5 hours.

[Thornbury]

Tbh so far Tre has just done what Dubas did last year and got his ROR and Acciari one year rentals in Domi and Bertuzzi. The core 4 remains in tact.

The core 4 needs to be changed. I will wait and see what he does for the rest of the summer. Seems decent so far.

Big difference- Dubas pissed away multiple high draft choices ģetting those guys, because they weren't "one year rentals", they were trade deadline acquisitions that cost us a lot of assets.

 

[horner]

Undeniable. Treliving destryed Kyle since July 1st. I don't even know what he is thinking over there it's like a mess and a lot of fans say the same.

Dubas signing there often injured Tristan Jerry 5.375 mil * 5 yrs

He signed dman Ryan Graves for 4.5 mil * 6 yrs I thought he was a bottom pairing defenceman

I like
Riley Smith
Lars Eller

 

[Mess]

Leafs are going from

Zach Hyman --> Michael Bunting ----> Tyler Bertuzzi on LW in the top 6

& from

Nazem Kadri ------> Alex Kerfoot ----> Max Domi and your 3rd line C/Winger.

That doesn't represent more depth behind the core 4 only different players.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Just because the Leafs have a lot of players competing for roster spots doesn't mean they have good depth.

Lets start by looking at the players who were on the roster for the playoffs that have left, and compare them to their replacements.

Out: O'Reilly, Bunting, Kerfoot, ZAR, Acciari, Holl, Schenn

In: Bertuzzi, Domi, Reaves, Knies, Klingberg

O'Reilly - nobody replaced O'Reilly. That's a downgrade, and a pretty big one at that.

Bunting/Bertuzzi - Bunting wishes he was Bertuzzi. If Bertuzzi stays healthy this should be an upgrade.

Kerfoot/Domi - Good riddance Alexander Kerfoot. Addition by subtraction.

ZAR & Acciari/Reaves - An upgrade on toughness and a downgrade on everything else.

Holl/Klingberg - This is a lot closer than a lot of Leafs fans care to admit.

Schenn - nobody replaced the one man wrecking crew on defense. Now the Leafs back end looks wimpier than ever.

They are counting on some combination of Robertson, Holmberg, Knies, and McMann to upgrade any of the players on the bottom six last year who left for greener pastures. Which leaves Reaves as the only actual NHL player replacing someone. Let's hope Treliving still picks up some better bottom six players.

Keep the real duds in the AHL where they belong.

Losing ROR sucks you won't see me turn on him now that he's not a Leaf I was fully on board with his addition since December he's the guy I wanted above anyone else although Meier was very close.

But ROR was the guy I wanted above anyone else and we got him he was great here so yes losing him sucks.

The rest? Luke Schenn included, who I also wanted to keep but certainly not at that price.

The rest either have been replaced and upgraded on, or are easily replaceable.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I stopped reading when you compared a range of 4-6, in a discussion of budgeting too much for a core in a depth scoring conversation. 4 is the problem. If they had spent it across 6, it wouldn't be a conversation.

Clearly 4 is not a problem, because Brad just proved it.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Losing ROR sucks you won't see me turn on him now that he's not a Leaf I was fully on board with his addition since December he's the guy I wanted above anyone else although Meier was very close.

But ROR was the guy I wanted above anyone else and we got him he was great here so yes losing him sucks.

The rest? Luke Schenn included, who I also wanted to keep but certainly not at that price.

The rest either have been replaced and upgraded on, or are easily replaceable.

Thanks for the response.

With the exception of Klingberg, I like the signings individually. I'm especially excited about Bertuzzi if his health holds up. As a whole, I'm still only cautiously optimistic.

That might change depending on how the rest of the summer shakes out, but as it is, cautiously optimistic is the best I've felt about a Leafs offseason in years.

 

[hockeyes]

This right here is why most Leaf fans are a joke, too bad Brad didn't dispel that myth in 5 hours, he did confirm it though.

 

[Donnie740]

Exactly, and that's why we dodged a bullet with both ROR and Schenn. I don't like the Reaves signing because he's over 35, past his prime, and the term is two years too long. I think his job could have been done by someone cheaper. However, I have no problem with the other 3 signings because they're younger, cheaper, on short term, and bring an element we were missing at a decent cost.

Reaves is still the most intimidating fighter in the NHL. Which is something Toronto has badly needed for the past half decade or so.

We’re only talking $1.3M for three years. That’s not a boat anchor for AAV or term.

It’s amusing how people want to pretend the Reaves deal is somehow similar to the horrific deals Dumbass handed out.

 

[Donnie740]

Dubas signing there often injured Tristan Jerry 5.375 mil * 5 yrs

Hurr-durr, this is a repeat of his previous mistakes for Pete Mrazek and Mutt Murray.

Can’t wait to see how many 1st round picks Pittsburgh has to give up to sweep this mistake under the carpet.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

This right here is why most Leaf fans are a joke, too bad Brad didn't dispel that myth in 5 hours, he did confirm it though.

If Tyler Bertuzzi and Max Domi aren't proper support scorers what do consider proper support scoring?

 

[Sypher04]

SH chances are nice, but that's not really the primary goal of the PK. For all Holl's warts, I would say he was more than okay on the PK, he ate minutes on a top-10 PK in the league. Lilly might be able to grow into that spot, but it's not certain.

I don't think our PK is going to be bad. Kampf and Marner are still huge parts of it. And this organization has been good at getting effective PKers from the Marlies. But we took a hit.

Jarnkrok is also an effective PKer and odds are Holmberg can do it as well

 

[Trapper]

Leafs are going from

Zach Hyman --> Michael Bunting ----> Tyler Bertuzzi on LW in the top 6

& from

Nazem Kadri ------> Alex Kerfoot ----> Max Domi and your 3rd line C/Winger.

That doesn't represent more depth behind the core 4 only different players.

That’s exactly it. The same with Muzzin. We replaced him with Klingberg, we didn’t add to him.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

It’s not a myth……it’s real, 4 forwards taking 50% of the cap is a bad distribution. If it was spread out amongst forward, defence and goaltending maybe but not the way it is.
as far as the changes that Tre has made we will have to wait and see if it works out. As it stand now we just have a different perimeter group then last year that was different then the year before and the year before that etc etc. we have seen this movie many times with the same result.
I hope it works out but it’s way to early to anoint this as the magic formula

Nobody is calling it a "magic Formula"

But to suggest that going from

Kerfoot
Bunting
Holl

To
Bertuzzi
Domi
Klingberg

Doesn't make the Leafs better is objectively wrong both from a skill and talent perspective and from a term commitment perspective.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Personally I would take Knies, Domi, Bertuzzi and Klingberg over Engvall, Kerfoot, ZAR and Holl anyday.

I won't miss old slow ass ROR. He wasn't very good for us. We got very slow at the deadline last year.

Knies - Matthews - Nylander
Bertuzzi - Tavares - Marner

Much better top 6. Some pace, size, and attitude added.

It would be reeeeeally nice if Robertson could become an NHL regular this year. That could be as big as a development as anything. Having a rabid puck hound with a 30g shot would be a huge injection of depth.

Losing ROR sucks

He could barely skate. Can't afford 2 Tavares level skaters in your top 6 or as your 2/3C. Team just looked way too slow.

 

[Mess]

Clearly 4 is not a problem, because Brad just proved it.

What am I missing here from your increased depth belief?

Forwards
In (Qty 3): Bertuzzi, Domi, Reaves
Out (Qty 6): O'Reilly, Acciari, Bunting, Kerfoot, Ashton-Reese, Simmonds

Defense
In (Qty 1): Klingberg
Out (Qty 3): Schenn, Holl, Gustafsson

Goalies
Unchanged expect for Samsonov not signed yet with Leafs well over the cap. With Kallgren and likely Murray eventually out leaving only Woll and Samsonov. Last year 4 goalies this year 2 goalies.

This is the cause and effect consequnces of paying 4 forwards 1/2 your salary cap.

Remember when Zach Hyman wanted $5.5 mil to stay, but Leafs chose to keep Kerfoot ($3.5 mil) + Holl ($2 mil) instead as 2-1 players is greater depth but not greater quality. .Now BT has kicked Kerfoot and Holl out and replace their Cap with Bertuzzi at $5.5 mil, what they could have done for Hyman.

Depth is based on Quantity and your argument seems to based on Quality of replacements making the team better, even though statistical difference between Kerfoot and Bunting out and Bertuzzi and Domi in was only 5 points based on last years produciton.

If Leafs could magically make Tavares $11 mil disappear and replace him with 2 X $5.5 mil players (ex. Hyman and Bertuzzi) where all 3 players are capable of 30 goals then you doubled your goal production by increasing your depth for the same Cap Cost.

 

[kevsh]

Much better top 6. Some pace, size, and attitude added.

It's a better top 6 but until Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Nylander (if he's still here) stop playing soft this team is never going to have playoff success.

As for the additions overall - with the caveat Treliving likely is not done yet - they are likely better offensively, worse defensively and outside Bertuzzi and Reaves are still soft as butter.

Therefore, as I'm sure I will say many more times before this upcoming season is over - which will likely be by late April or very early May - this is the same team, the same coach with the same weaknesses and they'll have the same result.

 

[Mess]

It's a better top 6 but until Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Nylander (if he's still here) stop playing soft this team is never going to have playoff success.

As for the additions overall - with the caveat Treliving likely is not done yet - they are likely better offensively, worse defensively and outside Bertuzzi and Reaves are still soft as butter.

Therefore, as I'm sure I will say many more times before this upcoming season is over - which will likely be by late April or very early May - this is the same team, the same coach with the same weaknesses and they'll have the same result.

Agreed and that is what I'll repeat a million more times that Leafs have too much Cap invested in too few players all forwards (1/2 the cap for Core 4).

Now that is not to say Leafs won't have more push back ability then in the past with the new additions. Bertuzzi (ie. 30 goals 60 points) is essentially Leafs poor man's version of Matt Tkachuk (ie. 40 goals 100 points) and finally a player on the ice when Matthews and Marner are on, while playing in the Top 6. There is only so much a 4th line player like Reaves playing limited minutes can do while he is on the ice but police the bottom of the other teams roster for the most part.

Same Core & Same Coach = same results as insanity should have it limitations, but until we see real change in the core group personnel wise things will remain the same.. A leopard never changes its spots so to expect Leafs soft core 4 to suddenly develop a backbone and push back ability to allow then to compete when the going gets tough, its simply going to be status quo for the outcome. Adding a Bertuzzi, Domi and Reaves to help mask that weakness is simply sweeping the dust under the rug essentially.

This is really the best that our new GM can do with the hand he was given.

 

[thewave]

Agreed and that is what I'll repeat a million more times that Leafs have too much Cap invested in too few players all forwards (1/2 the cap for Core 4).

Now that is not to say Leafs won't have more push back ability then in the past with the new additions. Bertuzzi (ie. 30 goals 60 points) is essentially Leafs poor man's version of Matt Tkachuk (ie. 40 goals 100 points) and finally a player on the ice when Matthews and Marner are on, while playing in the Top 6. There is only so much a 4th line player like Reaves playing limited minutes can do while he is on the ice but police the bottom of the other teams roster for the most part.

Same Core & Same Coach = same results as insanity should have it limitations, but until we see real change in the core group personnel wise things will remain the same.. A leopard never changes its spots so to expect Leafs soft core 4 to suddenly develop a backbone and push back ability to allow then to compete when the going gets tough, its simply going to be status quo for the outcome. Adding a Bertuzzi, Domi and Reaves to help mask that weakness is simply sweeping the dust under the rug essentially.

This is really the best that our new GM can do with the hand he was given.

Its not a for sure thing on the same results front. Buy in can happen. I doubt Marner can change his PO game much but they could insulate him better

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

What am I missing here from your increased depth belief?

Forwards
In (Qty 3): Bertuzzi, Domi, Reaves
Out (Qty 6): O'Reilly, Acciari, Bunting, Kerfoot, Ashton-Reese, Simmonds

Defense
In (Qty 1): Klingberg
Out (Qty 3): Schenn, Holl, Gustafsson

Goalies
Unchanged expect for Samsonov not signed yet with Leafs well over the cap. With Kallgren and likely Murray eventually out leaving only Woll and Samsonov. Last year 4 goalies this year 2 goalies.

This is the cause and effect consequnces of paying 4 forwards 1/2 your salary cap.

Remember when Zach Hyman wanted $5.5 mil to stay, but Leafs chose to keep Kerfoot ($3.5 mil) + Holl ($2 mil) instead as 2-1 players is greater depth but not greater quality. .Now BT has kicked Kerfoot and Holl out and replace their Cap with Bertuzzi at $5.5 mil, what they could have done for Hyman.

Depth is based on Quantity and your argument seems to based on Quality of replacements making the team better, even though statistical difference between Kerfoot and Bunting out and Bertuzzi and Domi in was only 5 points based on last years produciton.

If Leafs could magically make Tavares $11 mil disappear and replace him with 2 X $5.5 mil players (ex. Hyman and Bertuzzi) where all 3 players are capable of 30 goals then you doubled your goal production by increasing your depth for the same Cap Cost.

The depth is better because the qualityo f the depth players is better.

There is not a single person with even the most basic knowledge of the sport That will tell you That Kerfoot and Bunting are a better combo than Bertuzzi and Domi, hell we don't know if Bunting is legitimate or a product of Matthews and Marner.

There is not a single person with even the most basic knowledge of the sport That will tell you That John Klingberg is not an upgrade on Justin Holl even if it's just for his offense, we need offense from the back end.

Ryan Reaves is an upgrade on Simmonds simply because Ryan Reaves plays.

You won't even notice Acciari's loss because Bertuzzi and Domi signed here, not only does That improve the top 6 but also the bottom 6.

By signing Bertuzzi and Domi what you do is you Push Jarnkrok to the 3rd line along with Knies making the 3rd line better while not needing to replace Noel Acciari because his replacement is already there it's called an internal upgrade.

Now ROR? losing him sucks there is no upgrade there.

But the rest they have been upgraded on

 

[Racer88]

Nobody is calling it a "magic Formula"

But to suggest that going from

Kerfoot
Bunting
Holl

To
Bertuzzi
Domi
Klingberg

Doesn't make the Leafs better is objectively wrong both from a skill and talent perspective and from a term commitment perspective.

It may make them better but are they good enough. Our cap situation is awful right now, our goaltending is up in the air and suspect and our defence is suspect…..why, because we are up against it because Dubas spent 50% of the cap on 4 similar forwards and we have no cap to build the rest of the team properly .
here we are negotiating and debating contracts to give 3 of these guys even more money even after 5 years of them with almost zero playoff success thus negating any increase in the cap that may occur over the next few years.
This build model simply does not work and at least 1 of them has to go

 

[Fogelhund]

Nobody is calling it a "magic Formula"

But to suggest that going from

Kerfoot
Bunting
Holl

To
Bertuzzi
Domi
Klingberg

Doesn't make the Leafs better is objectively wrong both from a skill and talent perspective and from a term commitment perspective.

Last year. Bunts 49 points, Kerfoot 32 points, Holl 18 points
Last year Bertuzzi 30 points, Domi 56 points, Klingberg 33 points

It "looks" like we have become more offensive, while also becoming poorer defensively. We can go back an forth all day on this, but nothing is PROVEN, until they actually play the season out. No myth had ended, we signed an oft injured player, a hit and miss player, and a declining offensive D man. It would be bloody fantastic if Bert stays healthy, Domi is motivated to have an on year, and Klingberg plays better for us, than he has the last two years.

Pump the brakes some, until we actually see if this group works together... if we still have Nylander, or what the team actually looks like in October... it's very premature to be making grand claims.

 

[notbias]

Nobody is calling it a "magic Formula"

But to suggest that going from

Kerfoot
Bunting
Holl

To
Bertuzzi
Domi
Klingberg

Doesn't make the Leafs better is objectively wrong both from a skill and talent perspective and from a term commitment perspective.

For sure they are better offensively and worse defensively.

I think it is a good thing, we need more offense, but the names of the players are way bigger than their impact at this point.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Leafs are going from

Zach Hyman --> Michael Bunting ----> Tyler Bertuzzi on LW in the top 6

& from

Nazem Kadri ------> Alex Kerfoot ----> Max Domi and your 3rd line C/Winger.

That doesn't represent more depth behind the core 4 only different players.

*On paper*, the Leafs are certainly ahead of where they were last year. The potential of Bertuzzi and Domi are greater than Bunting's and Kerfoot's (especially Domi over Kerfoot).

Yes, I'd much rather that Hyman and Kadri were still around. But Dubas botched both those up a few years back, and shouldn't be dwelled upon when comparing the team now from when it ended in May.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

*On paper*, the Leafs are certainly ahead of where they were last year. The potential of Bertuzzi and Domi are greater than Bunting's and Kerfoot's (especially Domi over Kerfoot).

Yes, I'd much rather that Hyman and Kadri were still around. But Dubas botched both those up a few years back, and shouldn't be dwelled upon when comparing the team now from when it ended in May.

Not to mention they are both very long contracts and being paid a combined 13m AAV, compared to 8.5 for the current guys.

Hyman was looking pretty slow and banged up this year in the playoffs.

 

[AllDay28]

This team won't make the playoffs with these additions. But people will be happy for a couple weeks til mid November when they're complaining about every single addition.

Can't believe we lost Dubas to sign players like we're playing NHL 23