Player Discussion Brad Marchand V: UPDATE suspended 2 games

[World of Wardlow]

Nice to see he's having another career season!

 

[Bruinaura]

NHL second star of the week

 

[missingchicklet]

Kind of nuts how Brad is on pace to put up really nice numbers in a season in which fan perception/reality his line has not been the greatest and he has had a pretty long drought. Just shows how much expectations have risen for him. It's pretty cool to see where he is at now compared to him merely being a role player in the first part of his career.

 

[Fossy21]

Kind of nuts how Brad is on pace to put up really nice numbers in a season in which fan perception/reality his line has not been the greatest and he has had a pretty long drought. Just shows how much expectations have risen for him. It's pretty cool to see where he is at now compared to him merely being a role player in the first part of his career.

It's probably more down to the second and third lines underperforming. They could be the best line in the league and not get enough credit because team success doesn't correspond.

 

[BNHL]

Kind of nuts how Brad is on pace to put up really nice numbers in a season in which fan perception/reality his line has not been the greatest and he has had a pretty long drought. Just shows how much expectations have risen for him. It's pretty cool to see where he is at now compared to him merely being a role player in the first part of his career.

10 points in 2 games, and 33 in the other 44 games.

 

[CptxMorgan]

Kind of nuts how Brad is on pace to put up really nice numbers in a season in which fan perception/reality his line has not been the greatest and he has had a pretty long drought. Just shows how much expectations have risen for him. It's pretty cool to see where he is at now compared to him merely being a role player in the first part of his career.

Most fans seem aware that he's doing really well even if the team itself is underperforming.

 

[Walkenthewalk]

10 points in 2 games, and 33 in the other 44 games.

33 points in 44 games works out to 62 points over a full season.. not too shabby and would represent a career high I believe.

 

[BNHL]

33 points in 44 games works out to 62 points over a full season.. not too shabby and would represent a career high I believe.

I agree,but it's not superstar worthy. He has spells where he is the best 2 way winger in hockey and has spells where he isn't close.

 

[Fossy21]

I agree,but it's not superstar worthy. He has spells where he is the best 2 way winger in hockey and has spells where he isn't close.

It's really 33 in 44, BNHL had him as PPG for some reason.
That's still 61.5 points, which would still be a career high. And most of the scoring leaders have a few games where they go off to offset a few short droughts. Besides which, most of them have the benefit of playing much more PP, on a better PP, slightly more even strength, typically on teams that score more than the Bruins do as well as against worse players and fewer defensive zone starts (not being on the best shutdown/possession pairing in the league does that to you). Marchand being tied for 7th in the league with all this in mind is crazy.

Oh, and he's shooting at a 12.7% rate, compared to a career average of 14.8%. And Bergy (and Krug) is(/are) finally heating up, so the only way to go is up.

With all those factors considered, he's at least borderline superstar-worthy to me.
Also, take away Tyler Seguin's two best games (remember when that was a thing?) and he's at 36 points in 43 games, 13-15 of them (depending on which 3-point game you choose) coming on the PP. That's 21-23 ES (or SH, of which he of course has none) points in 43 games, to Marchand's 22 ES or SH points in 45 games. Seguin isn't a superstar?

Anyway, removing a player's best games shows me very little. It's not like he lit up two ****** teams anyway (okay, Philadelphia is on a slide, and second to last in GAA, but Columbus on the other hand is third in the league in GAA).

Brad's also tied 8th in the league for GWG, with Bergy tied 4th (meaning quite a few GW assists for Marchand as well), a fairly important stat as well.

 

[Pia8988]

10 points in 2 games, and 33 in the other 44 games.

I agree. Those 2 games don't actually count for the Bruins. Someone notify the NHL so they can have them stricken from the record.

 

[BNHL]

With all those factors considered, he's at least borderline superstar-worthy to me.
Also, take away Tyler Seguin's two best games (remember when that was a thing?) and he's at 36 points in 43 games, 13-15 of them (depending on which 3-point game you choose) coming on the PP. That's 21-23 ES (or SH, of which he of course has none) points in 43 games, to Marchand's 22 ES or SH points in 45 games. Seguin isn't a superstar?

Anyway, removing a player's best games shows me very little. It's not like he lit up two ****** teams anyway (okay, Philadelphia is on a slide, and second to last in GAA, but Columbus on the other hand is third in the league in GAA).

Brad's also tied 8th in the league for GWG, with Bergy tied 4th (meaning quite a few GW assists for Marchand as well), a fairly important stat as well.

I wouldn't call Seguin a superstar either

 

[BNHL]

I agree. Those 2 games don't actually count for the Bruins. Someone notify the NHL so they can have them stricken from the record.

See how smart you've become in 2 years?

 

[Pia8988]

See how smart you've become in 2 years?

Smart enough to realize all 43 of his points count the same.

Maybe we can revisit Vatrano's shot amounts and how it wasn't sustainable.

 

[BNHL]

Smart enough to realize all 43 of his points count the same.

Maybe we can revisit Vatrano's shot amounts and how it wasn't sustainable.

Except 20% of his points game in 2 games which skewers the picture. Vatrano will not shoot 400 times. How old are you so I know I'm not debating a 14 year old? seriously.

 

[Pia8988]

Except 20% of his points game in 2 games which skewers the picture. Vatrano will not shoot 400 times. How old are you so I know I'm not debating a 14 year old? seriously.

My arguments are weak so I'm going to resort to insults. And I'm the 14 year old

 

[BNHL]

My arguments are weak so I'm going to resort to insults. And I'm the 14 year old

How old? No insult. Being a juvenile isn't an insult,it's just being juvenile.

 

[Pia8988]

How old?

I think I learned to tie my shoe a few days ago

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

With all those factors considered, he's at least borderline superstar-worthy to me.
Also, take away Tyler Seguin's two best games (remember when that was a thing?) and he's at 36 points in 43 games, 13-15 of them (depending on which 3-point game you choose) coming on the PP. That's 21-23 ES (or SH, of which he of course has none) points in 43 games, to Marchand's 22 ES or SH points in 45 games. Seguin isn't a superstar?

Anyway, removing a player's best games shows me very little. It's not like he lit up two ****** teams anyway (okay, Philadelphia is on a slide, and second to last in GAA, but Columbus on the other hand is third in the league in GAA).

Brad's also tied 8th in the league for GWG, with Bergy tied 4th (meaning quite a few GW assists for Marchand as well), a fairly important stat as well.

Measuring a superstar becomes more about what you can expect and less about looking at what was

If teams start game planning for you... if teammates keep hope in their heart because you might suddenly become superman... that's where we can truly toss around the term superstar

Cam neely was a superstar... Ray bourque was a superstar. I'm not sure how many other bruins I've felt would go out and be the best player on the ice 50% of the time

Chara has had moments... Bergeron has had moments...

There's been a lot of Bruins I'd argue in the top 50 nhl skaters for a moment in time...

Adam Oates gave me confidence we wouldn't get shutout...

Where does marchand rank for best bruin of the last 20 years? Is he top 10?

Love how he's having a couple career years here.. love the 2 five point games... but we are a 500 team that lays duds almost every week. When we need superman to put this team on the shoulder... marchand isn't superman. Krejci hasn't been superman this year... Bergeron hasn't been superman this year

These guys are great 2 way players that you can win with... but to me none of them create fear in the opposition.

There might be 20-25 players tops that I'd bet my money on to be 65+ point scorers on a regular basis... guys that I feel confident will get it done on a regular basis despite being checked...

I don't think any of them currently play on bruins

 

[Fossy21]

...

Definitions regarding terms like "superstar" or "elite" bore me, especially when they spring from something so innocent as this thread title.
Marchand doesn't need to do much more to prove himself worthy of at least being in such discussions, though. For the last two seasons (as well as in the lockout-shortened 2012-13 season), he's been top 30 or so in points per minute played, and that's despite playing more PK and less PP than almost anyone before him on those lists (Anze Kopitar might play more PK than him, but that might be in part because Brad still takes quite a few penalties... besides, if you take away Kopitar's two best games this season, he has 19 points in 36 games ).

I think you have to at least separate forwards and D-men, because of course a Doughty playing 28 minutes a night or a Karlsso or Hedman playing 25 would be more valuable than only a select few forwards out there. But if you do that and beg me to list 15 guys to take over Marchand, I might struggle, seriously (I'd love for someone to do so, though, and might even agree with the list). Now how much of this is down to playing with Bergy for such a long time, meaning it's synergy, I don't know. But then you wouldn't argue that the Sedins weren't superstars at one point, I'm sure (they did get back-to-back Art Ross trophies, which #37 and #63 doing would be surprising, to say the least... I would've loved to see Bergy and Marchand with Crosby for 82 games, though ).

And other teams might not game plan to shut that line down (well, they would, since they're pretty much the only line scoring)... they're busy trying to figure out how to even hold on to the puck and not get shut down themselves by them for close to 20 minutes a night.

 

[BNHL]

Measuring a superstar becomes more about what you can expect and less about looking at what was

If teams start game planning for you... if teammates keep hope in their heart because you might suddenly become superman... that's where we can truly toss around the term superstar

Cam neely was a superstar... Ray bourque was a superstar. I'm not sure how many other bruins I've felt would go out and be the best player on the ice 50% of the time

Chara has had moments... Bergeron has had moments...

There's been a lot of Bruins I'd argue in the top 50 nhl skaters for a moment in time...

Adam Oates gave me confidence we wouldn't get shutout...

Where does marchand rank for best bruin of the last 20 years? Is he top 10?

Love how he's having a couple career years here.. love the 2 five point games... but we are a 500 team that lays duds almost every week. When we need superman to put this team on the shoulder... marchand isn't superman. Krejci hasn't been superman this year... Bergeron hasn't been superman this year

These guys are great 2 way players that you can win with... but to me none of them create fear in the opposition.

There might be 20-25 players tops that I'd bet my money on to be 65+ point scorers on a regular basis... guys that I feel confident will get it done on a regular basis despite being checked...

I don't think any of them currently play on bruins

I would choose to compare a player to his contemporaries. For my money there are 2 superstars in hockey,Ovechkin and Crosby,that's the benchmark,if you care to elevate someone else that's where you begin. After them,you probably have Malikin,Giroux and Kane. PPG players may be star players but when compared to Crosby,they are not at that superstar level. No one has scored like Ovechkin. He's not someone who is on pace to score 40,50 or even 60,he has done it.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Definitions regarding terms like "superstar" or "elite" bore me, especially when they spring from something so innocent as this thread title.
Marchand doesn't need to do much more to prove himself worthy of at least being in such discussions, though. For the last two seasons (as well as in the lockout-shortened 2012-13 season), he's been top 30 or so in points per minute played, and that's despite playing more PK and less PP than almost anyone before him on those lists (Anze Kopitar might play more PK than him, but that might be in part because Brad still takes quite a few penalties... besides, if you take away Kopitar's two best games this season, he has 19 points in 36 games ).

I think you have to at least separate forwards and D-men, because of course a Doughty playing 28 minutes a night or a Karlsso or Hedman playing 25 would be more valuable than only a select few forwards out there. But if you do that and beg me to list 15 guys to take over Marchand, I might struggle, seriously (I'd love for someone to do so, though, and might even agree with the list). Now how much of this is down to playing with Bergy for such a long time, meaning it's synergy, I don't know. But then you wouldn't argue that the Sedins weren't superstars at one point, I'm sure (they did get back-to-back Art Ross trophies, which #37 and #63 doing would be surprising, to say the least... I would've loved to see Bergy and Marchand with Crosby for 82 games, though ).

And other teams might not game plan to shut that line down (well, they would, since they're pretty much the only line scoring)... they're busy trying to figure out how to even hold on to the puck and not get shut down themselves by them for close to 20 minutes a night.

when you mention kopitar you help me get a point across that I wish I could make clearer. trying to look at a guy on a hot streak {or cold streak} and call the guy a superstar or not... is a losing battle

I mean I think brian bouchard had like a 5 game shutout streak going a couple years ago? I think john druce tore up the playoff scoring one year? I think andy delmour had like 18 goals as a defenseman in like 71 games...

if you start defining who is a superstar based on a 20-30 game stretch of hockey you are going to look foolish before long

when someone uses the eye test on a player like kopitar you see reasons to understand how he has managed 247 goals and 708 points in his 802 game career. you see why a cup winning team has built themselves around this guy... why he gets thrown on the ice 22-23 mins a night in the most important games the team needs to win... why the hockey experts say not only is he close to a ppg producer but he also deserves credit for being one of the top 3-4 defensive forwards over the past decade too...

you look at a 38 game stretch where he has 24 points and you don't say he sucks... you say, I wonder how many points he will get tonight when he turns it around? because the expectation is he will turn it around... he doesn't need 40 points to be the most dangerous player on the other team. even with 24 points the other team still worries this is the guy that will beat us tonight.

marchand on the other hand... clearly is having a better season. but you look at brad's play over the years and its easy to see why he has 170 goals in 501 games and just 331 points. hes streaky streaky streaky and he always has been. you look at how hes been used... 16-17 mins a night... not a lot of pp time... you see 1 single season of 60 points before this year {I assume he will have 2 now} and its difficult to say that this guy has superstar pedigree... that he is THE MAN

I mean, he clearly is having a very good season {with 2 games being the difference between career average production and very good season production}

he clearly spiked his goal production last year and had a really great number at the end of the season...

I hate if I am coming across as someone that is bashing brad... because I do think hes a very good player

where would I rank him among wingers now???

at lw...

I guess you got to go with ovechkin number 1
Jamie benn has earned number 2 if not number 1...
I think taylor hall/johnny gaudreau have more superstar potential

after that... the argument gets more debatable

Henrik Zetterberg/deniel sedin have been better in the past

pacioretty/saed I think would be considered very comparable... panarin might get some support from unbiased 3rd party obserers...

where does van riemsdyk and foligno fit in? and where would landeskog fit? where does lucic fit?

over on the right side you got to go with kane/tarasenko at the top of the pile...

then kucherov is making a case to join them... voracek has had some great seasons... this laine kid looks like the real deal... perry still has more game...

I love Simmonds in philly... but to me he very close to marchand... same with stone in Ottawa...wheeler scores more but marchand has the better all round game...
voikessel has some world class offense

I think tj oshies fans and brednan Gallagher fans consider them close to marchand... but I take marchand over them...

so if you are calling marchand around the 15th best impactful winger in the game... I think its a good call. hes done great for himself. hes a better player than guys with better reputations like rick nash... bobby ryan... james neal... Jordan eberle.

but of everyone I listed... how many truly deserve to be considered real superstars that can carry a team?

ovechkin?
benn?
kane?
taresenko?

marchand is not at all in this class...

hall?
laine?
kucherov?
perry?

do we really think neutral fans would put marchand in the class with these guys?

if you factor in the top 15 centers too... theres an easy 25 guys that you look at being the game's best players before we get to marchand.

even on our team... do I take marchand over Bergeron? over pastrnak? do I think hes better than krecji 5 times out of 10?

love the guy... love how he plays... but I always feel its fair to be honest with our evaluation of our heros. marchand is a guy who is having the best 2 years of his career as he nears 30... good on him... but hes still just a very good player... not a hall of fame shoe in

 

[BNHL]

when you mention kopitar you help me get a point across that I wish I could make clearer. trying to look at a guy on a hot streak {or cold streak} and call the guy a superstar or not... is a losing battle

I mean I think brian bouchard had like a 5 game shutout streak going a couple years ago? I think john druce tore up the playoff scoring one year? I think andy delmour had like 18 goals as a defenseman in like 71 games...

if you start defining who is a superstar based on a 20-30 game stretch of hockey you are going to look foolish before long

when someone uses the eye test on a player like kopitar you see reasons to understand how he has managed 247 goals and 708 points in his 802 game career. you see why a cup winning team has built themselves around this guy... why he gets thrown on the ice 22-23 mins a night in the most important games the team needs to win... why the hockey experts say not only is he close to a ppg producer but he also deserves credit for being one of the top 3-4 defensive forwards over the past decade too...

you look at a 38 game stretch where he has 24 points and you don't say he sucks... you say, I wonder how many points he will get tonight when he turns it around? because the expectation is he will turn it around... he doesn't need 40 points to be the most dangerous player on the other team. even with 24 points the other team still worries this is the guy that will beat us tonight.

marchand on the other hand... clearly is having a better season. but you look at brad's play over the years and its easy to see why he has 170 goals in 501 games and just 331 points. hes streaky streaky streaky and he always has been. you look at how hes been used... 16-17 mins a night... not a lot of pp time... you see 1 single season of 60 points before this year {I assume he will have 2 now} and its difficult to say that this guy has superstar pedigree... that he is THE MAN

I mean, he clearly is having a very good season {with 2 games being the difference between career average production and very good season production}

he clearly spiked his goal production last year and had a really great number at the end of the season...

I hate if I am coming across as someone that is bashing brad... because I do think hes a very good player

where would I rank him among wingers now???

at lw...

I guess you got to go with ovechkin number 1
Jamie benn has earned number 2 if not number 1...
I think taylor hall/johnny gaudreau have more superstar potential

after that... the argument gets more debatable

Henrik Zetterberg/deniel sedin have been better in the past

pacioretty/saed I think would be considered very comparable... panarin might get some support from unbiased 3rd party obserers...

where does van riemsdyk and foligno fit in? and where would landeskog fit? where does lucic fit?

over on the right side you got to go with kane/tarasenko at the top of the pile...

then kucherov is making a case to join them... voracek has had some great seasons... this laine kid looks like the real deal... perry still has more game...

I love Simmonds in philly... but to me he very close to marchand... same with stone in Ottawa...wheeler scores more but marchand has the better all round game...
voikessel has some world class offense

I think tj oshies fans and brednan Gallagher fans consider them close to marchand... but I take marchand over them...

so if you are calling marchand around the 15th best impactful winger in the game... I think its a good call. hes done great for himself. hes a better player than guys with better reputations like rick nash... bobby ryan... james neal... Jordan eberle.

but of everyone I listed... how many truly deserve to be considered real superstars that can carry a team?

ovechkin?
benn?
kane?
taresenko?

marchand is not at all in this class...

hall?
laine?
kucherov?
perry?

do we really think neutral fans would put marchand in the class with these guys?

if you factor in the top 15 centers too... theres an easy 25 guys that you look at being the game's best players before we get to marchand.

even on our team... do I take marchand over Bergeron? over pastrnak? do I think hes better than krecji 5 times out of 10?

love the guy... love how he plays... but I always feel its fair to be honest with our evaluation of our heros. marchand is a guy who is having the best 2 years of his career as he nears 30... good on him... but hes still just a very good player... not a hall of fame shoe in

For my money,great post,though I still hold onto the 2 league superstar view,with several star players below that. Marchand is below the star level,but has stretches where no one is better.

 

[Seidenbergy]

No mention of Stamkos in the superstar discussion? Wow. Out of sight, out of mind I guess.....even though others that aren't doing anything this year have gotten mentioned.

 

[Fossy21]

No mention of Stamkos in the superstar discussion? Wow. Out of sight, out of mind I guess.....even though others that aren't doing anything this year have gotten mentioned.

Stamkos is just injured. He's 2nd in the league in PPG this year (only 17 games, of course, and he's had some rough seasons, not least injury-wise). And yes, a lot of those guys, including Ovechkin, have struggled this year.

Alberta_OReilly_Fan: It's not a hot streak (even over half a season), though. He's sustained this production since he was given a slightly larger role on the team, ostensibly had a slight change in attitude, and gained even more confidence. And I'd absolutely argue he's as good as or better than a few of the guys you mentioned. He's not as good in any one area, so if that's your definition of whatever term of player you're arguing, that's fine. It's hard to compare different types of players. I'd absolutely take Marchand over Hall at this point (again, we don't know how much Marchand would drop off on another team, or vice versa, but I'm judging from what we do know). And if you're going by what other teams' fans say, no Bruin is even close to a star, let alone a superstar. Talk about how their actual play is.

And you want to talk about proving oneself and not judging players on a small sample, and include Laine as someone who's a better player than Marchand? I guess I'm at fault for labelling players based on their play and not their reputation...

 

[BNHL]

No mention of Stamkos in the superstar discussion? Wow. Out of sight, out of mind I guess.....even though others that aren't doing anything this year have gotten mentioned.

I think Superstar status is achieved by multiple elite seasons,which are consistently above what almost everyone else has done. I would call Stamkos a star player,not a superstar. I would say that McDavid will be one.