Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

[MeHateHe]

Well you can assume that if you like. Hull's daughter disliking him, and being justified in doing so, is pretty clear. That Hull was a fan of Hitler or racist might be true, but the genesis of the claim is essentially worthless. People are going to read into things what they want, on either side, but a generic "sounds like him" from one person doesn't really cut it for me.

For the sake of a nuanced discussion, one can agree on three points:
1) There is reason for a rational person to be skeptical about the discrete validity of quotes from a sketchy Russian publication, who crafted a story based on a side-table discussion with a then-senior citizen ex-professional hockey player at a restaurant.

2) That the man's daughter would later say 'yeah, that sounds like something Pops would say', even taking 1) into account, impacts how we should view Hull's legacy, which is the topic of this conversation.

3) Jumping into this discussion to say 'well, actually, he's *only* a serial spousal abuser, and not a racist' is not as much of a win as some might think, again taken in the context of the discussion of his legacy. We're not talking about the distinction between a small offence vs a small offence. Either one of these is justification for seeing Hull as something less than a hero, and crafting several posts picking nits over the validity of the quotes seems an effort into trying to salvage Hull's legacy.

I've said repeatedly, and I'll say again: I'm neither here to condemn nor exult. Heroes don't exist in my world. But trying to shout down people over something that his family has said is in keeping with the man's character is a losing strategy.

The funny thing is that Hitler did actually have some good ideas ... about things like small affordable cars, race tracks, architecture, and the modern Olympics.

Buddy, don't go down this road.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I cuss a bit more in private. I talk about poop more in private. I definitely talk more shit about coworkers in private.

I don't talk about the supposed inferiority or superiority of various races in private.

And a statement like that is basically just telling on yourself, so thanks for that.

This just proves my point. You talk shit about co-workers in private. Now what if I go tell the newspaper that "Macho King said xxxxxxx about his co-worker!" It's not a true statement, but it sounds like something you would say...see the problem here?

 

[norrisnick]

This just proves my point. You talk shit about co-workers in private. Now what if I go tell the newspaper that "Macho King said xxxxxxx about his co-worker!" It's not a true statement, but it sounds like something you would say...see the problem here?

Not at all, as Macho King does indeed shit-talk their co-workers in private. Saying Specific Comment A vs Specific Comment B is really no different.

Let's take a different tack here from Hull's history.

Say it was reported that Bobby beat his wife on a specific day in a specific city. But that was factually incorrect. And if a family member was asked to corroborate and stated "sounds like what he would have done given his history" does it make any difference that that particular instance didn't happen?

 

[Hasbro]

Well you're clearly a very fine and virtuous person, but you might want to actually have a decent idea that the person said it. Again, the story of how that quote came to be does not seem credible and there are no other statements attributed to Hull that in any way seem similar.

Except by his daughter.

When OJ dies, will the thread on the Football board be confined to his Bills career and The Naked Gun?

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Stevens' part in the gang rape thing was very minor and I don't think history can really hold it against him too much. Ciccarelli on the other hand ...



One thing I will say about racism is that it's hard to judge people historically by the standards of today.

Damned near everyone had casually racist points of view in the 1950s and even fairly progressive viewpoints for the time would look racist as hell by the turn of the century.



The funny thing is that Hitler did actually have some good ideas ... about things like small affordable cars, race tracks, architecture, and the modern Olympics.

But nobody is talking about these sorts of things when they say 'Hitler had some good ideas'.

Ok, I don't want to derail this thread but can you please explain what you mean by that?

Complainant was 17. "By her own account, she drank four or five beers and a couple of harder drinks. Some time after 1 a.m., she claims, one of the Caps, Dino Ciccarelli, grabbed her arm and pulled her outside into a limousine. Three other players, Geoff Courtnall, Neil Sheehy and Scott Stevens, were inside. When the door closed, she says, they grabbed at her breasts and groin and forced her to perform sex acts on them. She pleaded with them several times, saying, ``Don`t do this to me. I don`t want you to do this.`` And once, she screamed.

A fifth player has told police that he opened the car door at one point but closed it again when he saw his partially clad teammates struggling with the girl."

"The players denied that any forced sexual activity took place."

BEING A FAN IS NOT AN INVITATION TO RAPE

What was she doing out at that hour? Had she been drinking? Hadn`t she dated one of their friends? Those were the questions the city of Washington was asking the morning after a 17-year-old girl re…

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Not at all, as Macho King does indeed shit-talk their co-workers in private. Saying Specific Comment A vs Specific Comment B is really no different.

Let's take a different tack here from Hull's history.

Say it was reported that Bobby beat his wife on a specific day in a specific city. But that was factually incorrect. And if a family member was asked to corroborate and stated "sounds like what he would have done given his history" does it make any difference that that particular instance didn't happen?

If your hypothetical was the one and only piece of evidence in existence that Bobby Hull beat his wife, then yes it would be tremendously important that it was factually incorrect.

 

[MS]

Ok, I don't want to derail this thread but can you please explain what you mean by that?

BEING A FAN IS NOT AN INVITATION TO RAPE

What was she doing out at that hour? Had she been drinking? Hadn`t she dated one of their friends? Those were the questions the city of Washington was asking the morning after a 17-year-old girl re…

www.chicagotribune.com

The more detailed reports I've seen indicate that Stevens wasn't actually in the car when the alleged rape occurred but was acting as a lookout to make sure nobody else wandered in on his friends having a gangbang, essentially.

I mean, sleazy and gross. But not a rapist.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

The more detailed reports I've seen indicate that Stevens wasn't actually in the car when the alleged rape occurred but was acting as a lookout to make sure nobody else wandered in on his friends having a gangbang, essentially.

I mean, sleazy and gross. But not a rapist.

All the reports i've read had Stevens in the limo. Also, I would still consider that scenario rape.

Nick Kypreos was the player who opened the limo and saw what was happening, which essentially stopped the assault.

 

[norrisnick]

If your hypothetical was the one and only piece of evidence in existence that Bobby Hull beat his wife, then yes it would be tremendously important that it was factually incorrect.

Public record isn't the only evidence.

I guess this might highlight a bigger problem/difference in viewpoint here. Everything is a-ok as long as it happens behind closed doors.

I vehemently disagree with that premise.

 

[JackSlater]

For the sake of a nuanced discussion, one can agree on three points:
1) There is reason for a rational person to be skeptical about the discrete validity of quotes from a sketchy Russian publication, who crafted a story based on a side-table discussion with a then-senior citizen ex-professional hockey player at a restaurant.

2) That the man's daughter would later say 'yeah, that sounds like something Pops would say', even taking 1) into account, impacts how we should view Hull's legacy, which is the topic of this conversation.

3) Jumping into this discussion to say 'well, actually, he's *only* a serial spousal abuser, and not a racist' is not as much of a win as some might think, again taken in the context of the discussion of his legacy. We're not talking about the distinction between a small offence vs a small offence. Either one of these is justification for seeing Hull as something less than a hero, and crafting several posts picking nits over the validity of the quotes seems an effort into trying to salvage Hull's legacy.

I've said repeatedly, and I'll say again: I'm neither here to condemn nor exult. Heroes don't exist in my world. But trying to shout down people over something that his family has said is in keeping with the man's character is a losing strategy.


Buddy, don't go down this road.

Your third point is irrelevant. Hull is very clearly guilty of various incidents of domestic violence. No one here knows whether he thought Hitler had good ideas or was a racist, but the grasping makes some posters look more like they are preening than attempting to discuss Hull, whether that is his playing career or the things, like domestic violence, that we actually know he was guilty of. I doubt anyone is trying to secure some kind of picture of Hull as a saint or even a good guy. It's more so that some people are aware that the Hitler quote stems from an incredibly dubious source.

Except by his daughter.

When OJ dies, will the thread on the Football board be confined to his Bills career and The Naked Gun?

What are the statements attributed to Hull other than by some random Russian would be journalist who showed up at Hull's dinner table and then made outlandish claims that no one else claimed to have heard? His daughter did not attribute those statements to Hull since she wasn't there. At best she implied that they could be his sentiments. She didn't say that she had heard the same things, and as far as I know no one else has. As for your poor OJ Simpson analogy, I'd say that people will discuss his murders and his football career rather than some sketchy claim a person once made and could not prove. If people are foolish enough to focus on some very unlikely claim then whatever other points they have about things that happened or likely did happen will become less significant.

 

[MS]

All the reports i've read had Stevens in the limo. Also, I would still consider that scenario rape.

Nick Kypreos was the player who opened the limo and saw what was happening, which essentially stopped the assault.

22 Years Later, David Poile Faces Scott Stevens Redux

With current Nashville and former Washington general manager David Poile facing the loss of a franchise defenseman, we take a look back at the summer of 1990 and a decision that changed the Capitals forever.

dc.sbnation.com

However, during the party, Sheehy, forwards Dino Ciccarelli and Geoff Courtnall, and Stevens were involved in an incident that got the police involved - and drew national media attention.

A 17-year-old waitress accused the four players of lewd behavior, claiming that three of them - Ciccarelli, Courtnall and Sheehy - committed rape and sodomy in one of the limousines that evening while Stevens served as a lookout.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Public record isn't the only evidence.

I guess this might highlight a bigger problem/difference in viewpoint here. Everything is a-ok as long as it happens behind closed doors.

I vehemently disagree with that premise.

Society on the whole operates on a different set of morals and expectations behind closed doors. This is presumably as old as time itself, and perhaps why most societies codified certain actions as criminal. Crimes are still crimes, even behind closed doors. Bobby Hull beat his wife behind closed doors, but nobody is trying to argue that it was even the slightest bit acceptable or any different than if it occurred on the concourse of Chicago Stadium. So no, not everything is a-ok if it happens in private.

Most people say shit in private that they wouldn't dream of saying in public. Does everyone do that to the same extent? No, but people who claim that the views they express in public settings are always the exact same views they would express in the privacy of their own home probably aren't being honest with themselves. You can absolutely disagree with this premise, but public record versus private anecdote is still considered very different in most of society at this point in time.

 

[Voight]

Except by his daughter.

When OJ dies, will the thread on the Football board be confined to his Bills career and The Naked Gun?

So are just to believe her 100%? Ever think maybe she has an axe to grind with him?

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

22 Years Later, David Poile Faces Scott Stevens Redux

With current Nashville and former Washington general manager David Poile facing the loss of a franchise defenseman, we take a look back at the summer of 1990 and a decision that changed the Capitals forever.

dc.sbnation.com

The victim seems to state that Stevens was part of the assault, however he then later stepped outside to be lookout, which honestly might actually be worse.

Washington Post - 1990

Washington Associated Press - 1990

 

[Big Phil]

Phil... This is really hard to read.

Anyone who says that Hull doesn't have a complicated legacy, (such as the article linked on the first page) is foolish.

You're right that you cannot ignore the contributions that Bobby had to the history and legacy of the NHL and Canadian hockey. He broke the "glass ceiling" for salaries and paved the way for much better men than him to be paid fairly for the money they brought into the game. His contract with the Jets is at the level of importance of the NHLPA being established. He was one of the biggest draws in the game, inspired millions of kids to curve their sticks, and was very important to Canadian hockey during the Cold War.

But you cannot separate that from his monstrously abusive behaviour. Forget about the Hitler comments. He hurt a lot of people, including his wives and children. If you need a clearer example of how destructive and abusive he was, his own daughter pursued a career as a lawyer in domestic abuse because of the violence she witnessed first hand by Bobby against her mother.

He was a dangerous, violent man who had victims. Victims he was unrepentant towards. He beat his first wife bloody with a steel headed shoe and nearly threw her off of a balcony. He beat all his wives to the point law enforcement needed to get involved. He abused his children to the point that none of them wanted anything to do with him. Brett is a stronger man than most to allow a man like Bobby back into his life.

Imagine what it's like to be a victim of domestic abuse, experiencing the trauma that you go through every day of your life because of the impact of a violent abuser, and then seeing a man who abused those who trusted him publicly celebrated and cheered for? What sort of message does that send people?

This issue is bigger than hockey and signing autographs for fans.

Bobby can be remembered and acknowledged for the positives his legacy brought to the game, but in no world should he be celebrated as some sort of hero.

No one in sports is a hero. Nor did I say that. A "hero" in sports is much different language than an actual hero. Even someone clean like Jean Beliveau isn't what I would call a "hero" in real life. They are heroes in our hearts because we saw them play the game. I think you can look at the impact he had on the ice, and even off it, and still admit he was a flawed man. I am not a big fan of putting a human being on a pedestal to be honest, never have. It doesn't mean you can't admire the hockey memories he gave us.

What a ridiculous comment. Who knows? Hundreds of thousands of players made it to the NHL without being the sons of NHL superstars. What kind of dumb thing is that to bring up? Brett Hull was a HOF talent. Bobby Hull being his dad probably had little to do with him making it to the NHL so long as he had the same talent and played organized hockey.

I've read it multiple times over the years, so I suspect it to be true, but Bobby did say he pushed Brett and gave him hell for not giving it his all when he realized the talent he could have had. We all know Brett, while a HHOF player, had a reputation for being lazy, and even when he scored goals he still had that reputation at times. So I can see it. Nothing out of the ordinary here, every father likely did this. I was just responding to the fact that Brett would surely give his dad at least SOME credit for his path to the NHL and helping his game.

Anyway, I'm just a guy like everyone else on a message board. This is what Brett said about his dad's passing. It's touching. I mean, he's his son, and it appeared they have reconciled over the years. Might also be tough to read a ton of awful things posted about your dad two mere days after he kicked the bucket.

 

[Hasbro]

So are just to believe her 100%? Ever think maybe she has an axe to grind with him?

Don’t know if I would characterize being an his abuse victim as “having an axe to grind”.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

So are just to believe her 100%? Ever think maybe she has an axe to grind with him?

If my daughter has an 'axe to grind' with me because I beat her mom, she's justified in doing it. What kind of maladjusted thinking are you suggesting?

I've read it multiple times over the years, so I suspect it to be true, but Bobby did say he pushed Brett and gave him hell for not giving it his all when he realized the talent he could have had. We all know Brett, while a HHOF player, had a reputation for being lazy, and even when he scored goals he still had that reputation at times. So I can see it. Nothing out of the ordinary here, every father likely did this. I was just responding to the fact that Brett would surely give his dad at least SOME credit for his path to the NHL and helping his game.

Anyway, I'm just a guy like everyone else on a message board. This is what Brett said about his dad's passing. It's touching. I mean, he's his son, and it appeared they have reconciled over the years. Might also be tough to read a ton of awful things posted about your dad two mere days after he kicked the bucket.

Okay - and that goes for millions of other professional athletes and non-athletes. What, am I supposed to give a father a cookie for maaaaaybe having a role in the future success of his son? That's what they're supposed to do. Just because I'd shit on him for the opposite doesn't mean I should clap for doing what he should be doing.

I'm sorry for Brett Hull that his father was an abusive piece of shit, but the world doesn't owe his father the kindness that he seemed to have a bitch of a time showing to others. And that's putting it kindly.

 

[Big Phil]

Bobby Hull's reputation is ruined forever. His statue in Chicago will likely be coming down at some point.

Scott Stevens and Bobby Clarke are in similar situations, obviously for different reasons. They will not be remembered well. Even now, for younger generations, their hockey play is very much secondary.

Who is going to be left if we keep doing this? The vocal minority likely will pout and stomp over getting Hull's statue taken down to the point that it might happen, but then you are literally erasing the biggest part of your franchise's history. Ditto Stevens in Jersey. Ditto Clarke in Philly.

There is no one with clean sheets. But historically we tend to look at the person we know from their play, or their movies or their music. Because if we tore down the memories of everyone who was a bad father, well, goodbye John Lennon, Johnny Cash, allegedly Bing Crosby (although some of his kids jumped to his defense). Just remember, McCartney wrote "Hey Jude" to console Julian Lennon, John's son, and Julian barely saw his dad for the rest of his life. We still listen to the Beatles, right? I wouldn't want Lennon as a dad, and even Julian found it ironic that John wrote songs about love, but I still think his music was good. You separate it.

Lots of divorce over the years too with celebrities. Lots of hurt. A lot of people who weren't considered very moral people. That being said, I always take the Ty Cobb approach to this sort of thing. Cobb is an all-time great as a ball player, but some awful stuff has been said about him. Yet in the last few years I realized that much of the bad things said about Cobb came from a reporter back in the day who had a lot of disdain for him. In other words, a guy who died in 1961 isn't here to defend himself and I can admit there might be some clouding to his legacy.

Hull is a lot like Mickey Mantle, on and off the ice/field. Hull is accused of physical abuse while Mantle was a known playboy. Both seemed to love their drinks. Mantle did show some humility publicly at the end of his life when he knew he was dying. He regretted being a bad husband and father. It was genuine. I have no idea if Hull has said this stuff publicly, but hopefully he did privately. Either way, it is between him and the people he hurt. I wouldn't tear his statue down over it.

 

[Big Phil]

Okay - and that goes for millions of other professional athletes and non-athletes. What, am I supposed to give a father a cookie for maaaaaybe having a role in the future success of his son? That's what they're supposed to do. Just because I'd shit on him for the opposite doesn't mean I should clap for doing what he should be doing.

I'm sorry for Brett Hull that his father was an abusive piece of shit, but the world doesn't owe his father the kindness that he seemed to have a bitch of a time showing to others. And that's putting it kindly.

Brett Hull most likely got the wrong end of his dad's personality I don't doubt it. That being said, you seem more angry at Bobby than his own son who has a heck of a lot more reason to be angry. Like I said, read his comment on Twitter. Whatever it is, he must have made peace with him. Hockey I am sure was their common bond. His dad was Bobby Hull, I am sure he was influenced by him and it helped him get where he got to.

You know you can dislike a person and still acknowledge he was a big part of hockey history. Heck, if I can do it with Alan Eagleson..................

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

No one in sports is a hero. Nor did I say that. A "hero" in sports is much different language than an actual hero. Even someone clean like Jean Beliveau isn't what I would call a "hero" in real life. They are heroes in our hearts because we saw them play the game. I think you can look at the impact he had on the ice, and even off it, and still admit he was a flawed man. I am not a big fan of putting a human being on a pedestal to be honest, never have. It doesn't mean you can't admire the hockey memories he gave us.

You sidestepped a lot of what I said. You essentially stated that players personal lives should be separated from their on-ice lives. I think for the most part that's a reasonable request, but you are looking at this situation as an (and I don't mean this with ANY malice or to be insulting) older white male.

While you can look at Bobby and say "Yeah he did some bad things but he was great for the sport", imagine what it's like for people who fall into the experience of his wife or kids. This was why myself and so many others were disgusted with the Hawks when they brought him in as ambassador for the team in 2008. Imagine you are a woman who has experienced horrific domestic abuse, or are currently experiencing horrific domestic abuse. Then you go to a Hawks game and you see a man who publicly is known as a serial abuser, who has abused numerous women to the same violent extent you are being abused, celebrated and paraded about as some sort of folk hero, and enshrined in the HHOF as a player to be admired.

It's about basic empathy. You can like Bobby for the memories he brought to you as a hockey player, but the violence he left in his wake cannot and should not be ignored or separated from his legacy.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Brett Hull most likely got the wrong end of his dad's personality I don't doubt it. That being said, you seem more angry at Bobby than his own son who has a heck of a lot more reason to be angry. Like I said, read his comment on Twitter. Whatever it is, he must have made peace with him. Hockey I am sure was their common bond. His dad was Bobby Hull, I am sure he was influenced by him and it helped him get where he got to.

You know you can dislike a person and still acknowledge he was a big part of hockey history. Heck, if I can do it with Alan Eagleson..................

This is nothing more than vapid hogwash.

I'm not Brett Hull nor does his relationship with his dad should have any influence of what I think of Bobby Hull.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Don’t know if I would characterize being an his abuse victim as “having an axe to grind”.

Jesus christ man, it's a figure of speech. The inability of some of you folks to discern any nuance whatsoever from the posts you're replying to is really something to behold.

 

[K Fleur]

You know I don’t have an axe to grind with my father.

Probably cause he never beat the shit out of my mom.

 

[Big Phil]

You sidestepped a lot of what I said. You essentially stated that players personal lives should be separated from their on-ice lives. I think for the most part that's a reasonable request, but you are looking at this situation as an (and I don't mean this with ANY malice or to be insulting) older white male.

While you can look at Bobby and say "Yeah he did some bad things but he was great for the sport", imagine what it's like for people who fall into the experience of his wife or kids. This was why myself and so many others were disgusted with the Hawks when they brought him in as ambassador for the team in 2008. Imagine you are a woman who has experienced horrific domestic abuse, or are currently experiencing horiffic domestic abuse. Then you guy to a Hawks game and you see a man who publicly is known to have abused women the same you are being abused being celebrated and paraded about as some sort of folk hero, and enshrined in the HHOF as a player to be admired.

It's about basic empathy. You can like Bobby for the memories he brought to you as a hockey player, but the violence he left in his wake cannot and should not be ignored or separated from his legacy.

I'm always "old and white" in these situations, I guess.

Anyway, what is it you want to do? Pretend that arguably the greatest left winger in NHL history never existed? He was a great hockey player, an all-time great. And he was accused of doing some bad things. Both exist.

 

[Bocephus86]

Society on the whole operates on a different set of morals and expectations behind closed doors. This is presumably as old as time itself, and perhaps why most societies codified certain actions as criminal. Crimes are still crimes, even behind closed doors. Bobby Hull beat his wife behind closed doors, but nobody is trying to argue that it was even the slightest bit acceptable or any different than if it occurred on the concourse of Chicago Stadium. So no, not everything is a-ok if it happens in private.

Most people say shit in private that they wouldn't dream of saying in public. Does everyone do that to the same extent? No, but people who claim that the views they express in public settings are always the exact same views they would express in the privacy of their own home probably aren't being honest with themselves. You can absolutely disagree with this premise, but public record versus private anecdote is still considered very different in most of society at this point in time.

You really are telling on yourself with this second paragraph, doubling down on an earlier statement you made. Let me illustrate why with a prior example:

Let's say I often talk shit about my coworkers in private and my kid has overheard it many times. Later on someone claims I was making fun of coworker 'x' for being stupid. If that gets back to my kid they would say 'that sounds like him'. If I never talked crap about coworkers in private then they wouldn't say that.

So in this other scenario, it's about saying 'Hitler had some good ideas'. If my child then says 'Sounds like something he'd say' it would certainly indicate that similar (racist and/or hitler-praising) statements are common from 'me' in private.

If you are associating with people, or are one yourself, that thinks things like this are 'ok' in private then I'd take a step back and think.