Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

The "Hitler had good ideas" thing was debunked as fake news like 15 years ago as far as I recall. Why the hell would some Russian newspaper be asking a retired Canadian hockey player what he thought about Hitler? Mainstream sports media continuing to report it as fact is sad, but unsurprising.

Based on the fact that it’s still a big part of his legacy I’d say it being debunked is selective memory. Especially when his family says it’s what he’d say.

 

[PBandJ]

Based on the fact that it’s still a big part of his legacy I’d say it being debunked is selective memory. Especially when his family says it’s what he’d say.

Bingo.

His daughter I believe said that it was a comment she'd heard him make.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

To me he just seems like an egomaniac with no filter. It's not like he said something everybody else wasn't thinking but wasn't saying. It's seems very unlikely to me that the Canadians chauvinists who openly hated on all European players loved blacks and other minorities. Where were all the hockey legends protesting against the Jim Crow (half of the league played in the USA so idgaf). Where were all of these great nice guys like Howe when South Africa was doing their fcked up stuff and was part of the same British Commonwealth Canada was prior to them being forced out? Hull wasn't unlike anyone else, he just didn't care about presenting himself as an angelic figure like all of the other pretentious guys. Am I the only one who doesn't find it virtuous at all and in fact very annoying when I see Gretzky never give himself credit and even make up nonsense stories to prop up other players?

That he was open about being a trashcan doesn't make him any less of a trashcan.

 

[MeHateHe]

But my goodness, the guy's body is still warm...

Meh. As the old saying goes, you live by the sword you die by the sword. Athletes and entertainers are paid very well not (just) because they're good at what they do, but because they are in the public eye. Performance artists are good at what they do, but nobody is all that interested so they don't get on Winnipeg TV stations holding $1 million novelty cheques.

Hull, like other athletes and entertainers, get the benefit of their notoriety and so they also pay the price for it.

I don't believe in dancing on graves in general. I think I can be respectful when there are people who are unhappy because of the death of one of their heroes. But I can also understand when people react as they have.

 

[JackSlater]

Based on the fact that it’s still a big part of his legacy I’d say it being debunked is selective memory. Especially when his family says it’s what he’d say.

I'd say that there being no evidence other than one Russian news contributor (I believe I recall that he was not even employed by the newspaper as a journalist) claiming it, with no recording or people to corroborate his story despite the conversation happening in a restaurant with others at the table, is more than enough reason to highly doubt it. It's an incredibly outlandish claim for a person to make, especially to someone in media. Regardless the thread seems as though it will inevitably descend to the level of the main boards as predictable posters come in to pretend as though they are taking a bold stand against things that everyone is already against.

 

[Felidae]

This thread should be in the National Hockey League forum instead of hidden away in a subforum that 99% of users will never read. Preventing people from talking about how Bobby Hull was an abusive alcoholic in his death announcement thread to maintain "decorum" is disgusting.

If we were talking about a current player, sure. But I think the History Of Hockey Forum is a fitting place to discuss the legacy of a former player.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Based on the fact that it’s still a big part of his legacy I’d say it being debunked is selective memory. Especially when his family says it’s what he’d say.

It's a big part of his legacy because a bunch of keyboard warriors fall for clickbait and start repeating it as fact since it supports their righteous narrative.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

I'd say that there being no evidence other than one Russian news contributor (I believe I recall that he was not even employed by the newspaper as a journalist) claiming it, with no recording or people to corroborate his story despite the conversation happening in a restaurant with others at the table, is more than enough reason to highly doubt it. It's an incredibly outlandish claim for a person to make, especially to someone in media. Regardless the thread seems as though it will inevitably descend to the level of the main boards as predictable posters come in to pretend as though they are taking a bold stand against things that everyone is already against.

His own family said it was something he’d say.

 

[MXD]

Now...........was there a side to Hull that was different from the rink? Yes I believe there was. I'm not denying that and I hope he made some peace with things in his private life. But my goodness, the guy's body is still warm and people are bringing out the "Hitler" comment, which I can still show you a Hockey News magazine from 1997 where that seemed like a debunked quote. I mean, can't we just appreciate the guy for his playing ability? We didn't know him off the ice. I know Brett and him had, what I would think sounded like a complicated relationship, would he have even made the NHL or gotten interest in the game without the old man?

I don't know what you're implying there, but I can already tell you that this is, in the kindest words possible, insanely f***ing stupid.

 

[JackSlater]

His own family said it was something he’d say.

I'm not sure I take it in the sense that "Bobby Hull likes talking up Hitler" as much as "Bobby Hull is an asshole". I believe she said "That's exactly like him". But again, the statements are so outlandish and the source is so suspect that it seems like quite a stretch, and it isn't as if it is in any way related to his other, documented negative behaviour. From my memory Hull said that the guy started asking him weird questions while he was eating dinner with people and something came up regarding his cattle.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

was wondering why this guy was getting warnings on his death thread. did a few google searches and it seems like this guy may have been one of the best hockey players ever but was also one of the worst humans as well.
hard to say RIP on this one. maybe Good Riddance?

 

[norrisnick]

His own family said it was something he’d say.

Yeah, I'd chalk this up to a case of, whether or not that particular quote/answer actually occurred is largely immaterial. His family categorized him as a racist and not at all surprised that that would be something he said.

 

[Felidae]

It's really hard to let go of your hero worship, especially when it started when you were really young. It's a lot easier to dismiss someone you haven't invested your entire childhood revering.

Agreed.

I think a lot of people in the main forum thread attacking others for only bringing up his off ice actions are off base. Ultimately, that's a part of his legacy whether you like it or not.

But I also want to point out, at the risk of being controversial. I don't think there's anything wrong with fondly remembering Bobby Hull. He brought a lot of enjoyment to people by being one of the greatest, most exciting hockey players of all time and changed the game. There's also plenty of positive anecdotes from fans interacting with him. I don't necessarily think what he did off ice has to affect that.

At the same time, theres probably quite a few whose memories of him are tainted because of what he did and thats ok as well. I'm sure many people can relate to dealing with domestic abuse in some form or another whether its going through it or knowing someone who has (not that its a requirement to have a visceral reaction to his actions). So I don't blame anyone who has absolutely nothing nice to say at all, and only wanting to focus on what he did off the ice.


In conclusion, I think there's room for both and one doesn't have to take away from the other.

 

[MS]

There was a whole spreadsheet posted a while back, in another thread, listing the long history of horrible off-ice incidents that have stained the NHL.

One that always comes to mind for me is Doug Gilmour's molestation of an underage girl while he was in St. Louis. Went on to win a Cup in Calgary and also remains a legend here in Toronto for his play with the Leafs. Either most fans simply aren't aware of what he did, or they don't care.

For what it's worth, I'd say what Bobby Hull did and said, over the years, pales in comparison to an act like that. But that's just my .02

It absolutely boggles my mind every time I see Doug Gilmour in a car insurance commercial in the post MeToo era.

 

[quietbruinfan]

What’s been eye opening for me on the Bruins board is seeing a number of people who absolutely lost their minds about Mitch Miller heaping so much praise upon Bobby Hull.

Actually, I was waiting for a legacy thread like this, and restraining myself. Bobby Hull was a great hockey player and a truly terrible person. I do not think either position is all that arguable. (I was always surprised, and pleased, he and Brett reconciled.)

 

[MXD]

It absolutely boggles my mind every time I see Doug Gilmour in a car insurance commercial in the post MeToo era.

The worst is -- in Quebec, he was doing that ad with DUI-convicted Mario Tremblay (I think he was doing it with Mike Vernon elsewhere in Canada). Meaning Gilmour was the guy whose presence in the ad made the MOST sense.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Agreed.

I think a lot of people in the main forum thread attacking others for only bringing up his off ice actions are off base. Ultimately, that's a part of his legacy whether you like it or not.

But I also want to point out, at the risk of being controversial. I don't think there's anything wrong with fondly remembering Bobby Hull. He brought a lot of enjoyment to people by being one of the greatest, most exciting hockey players of all time and changed the game. There's also plenty of positive anecdotes from fans interacting with him. I don't necessarily think what he did off ice has to affect that.

At the same time, theres probably quite a few whose memories of him are tainted because of what he did and thats ok as well. I'm sure many people can relate to dealing with domestic abuse in some form or another whether its going through it or knowing someone who has (not that its a requirement to have a visceral reaction to his actions). So I don't blame anyone who has absolutely nothing nice to say at all, and only wanting to focus on what he did off the ice.


In conclusion, I think there's room for both and one doesn't have to take away from the other.

If any recent player said what he said about the “African population” there would be zero tolerance for thinking of that player fondly. And that doesn’t touch beating the bag out of his wives.

 

[Big Phil]

I don't know what you're implying there, but I can already tell you that this is, in the kindest words possible, insanely f***ing stupid.

Umm................alright then?

Okay, his name his Bobby Johnson. He has a son Brett. He is NOT a superstar with the Chicago Blackhawks. He works on a farm. Does his son gain enough interest in hockey to make it in the NHL? I just assumed people reading it would see it that way.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Bobby Hull was basically Mickey Mantle in the NHL. Muscular, the fans loved him, bigger than life, blond hair, big smile, good with the fans and could lift you out of your seat with how he played. Also played in an era where the media had an interest in keeping things focused on the game and not their private life. Was that better? Yeah I think so. We've swung the pendulum the other way too much where we demand our sports stars fall in line with mainstream politics and we shame them for it if we don't think they do (eg. the way people talk about Ovechkin). Sports is an escape from that stuff, and few could do that better than Bobby Hull.

He also ought to be credited more than anyone with NHLers getting paid their market value. In 1972 while Hull was not able to play in the Summit Series he was given free tickets by Wayne Cashman I believe for one of the games. When Hull asked what he owed him Cashman said "Nothing. My salary tripled because of you!" Hull bolting to the WHA did this. This was a 50 goal scorer at the time doing this, a larger than life figure in the NHL. It wouldn't be ignored. And I don't think he gets enough credit for it.

Hull would sign every single autograph even if it meant he had to keep the team bus waiting. Regardless of his personal life, the guy shelled out for the fans perhaps as much as anyone ever has. I've read the tributes about him. It is one thing to read what is said on a message board, it is another thing to hear Hedberg or Nilsson or people that knew him well talk about him. There is a lot of nice things said about him. Maybe people don't like that, but oh well.

Now...........was there a side to Hull that was different from the rink? Yes I believe there was. I'm not denying that and I hope he made some peace with things in his private life. But my goodness, the guy's body is still warm and people are bringing out the "Hitler" comment, which I can still show you a Hockey News magazine from 1997 where that seemed like a debunked quote. I mean, can't we just appreciate the guy for his playing ability? We didn't know him off the ice. I know Brett and him had, what I would think sounded like a complicated relationship, would he have even made the NHL or gotten interest in the game without the old man?

Phil... This is really hard to read.

Anyone who says that Hull doesn't have a complicated legacy, (such as the article linked on the first page) is foolish.

You're right that you cannot ignore the contributions that Bobby had to the history and legacy of the NHL and Canadian hockey. He broke the "glass ceiling" for salaries and paved the way for much better men than him to be paid fairly for the money they brought into the game. His contract with the Jets is at the level of importance of the NHLPA being established. He was one of the biggest draws in the game, inspired millions of kids to curve their sticks, and was very important to Canadian hockey during the Cold War.

But you cannot separate that from his monstrously abusive behaviour. Forget about the Hitler comments. He hurt a lot of people, including his wives and children. If you need a clearer example of how destructive and abusive he was, his own daughter pursued a career as a lawyer in domestic abuse because of the violence she witnessed first hand by Bobby against her mother.

He was a dangerous, violent man who had victims. Victims he was unrepentant towards. He beat his first wife bloody with a steel headed shoe and nearly threw her off of a balcony. He beat all his wives to the point law enforcement needed to get involved. He abused his children to the point that none of them wanted anything to do with him. Brett is a stronger man than most to allow a man like Bobby back into his life.

Imagine what it's like to be a victim of domestic abuse, experiencing the trauma that you go through every day of your life because of the impact of a violent abuser, and then seeing a man who abused those who trusted him publicly celebrated and cheered for? What sort of message does that send people?

This issue is bigger than hockey and signing autographs for fans.

Bobby can be remembered and acknowledged for the positives his legacy brought to the game, but in no world should he be celebrated as some sort of hero.

 

[Felidae]

If any recent player said what he said about the “African population” there would be zero tolerance for thinking of that player fondly. And that doesn’t touch beating the bag out of his wives.

I wasn't even aware of those comments. But he's already done enough horrid stuff that your point still stands.

The conversation sort of reminds me of the "seperate the art from the artist" subject.

And I do think we can seperate Bobby Hull the hockey player from who Bobby Hull was as a person.

Walkingthroughforest made a great point that publicly celebrating Hull's life would be insensitive. Especially since the domestic abuse and racist comments are rarely if ever mentioned in the media and should be at the forefront.

I also do think people can still have positive memories of public figures that brought joy to their lives whether through their work or something more personal, while simultaneously acknowledging the horrendous actions they've done. It's when people act like Hull was a great guy, is when we start having issues.

Look at all the people that still listen to John Lennon's music despite his domestic abuse history. I don't think that means the majority of his listeners condone his actions.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

I wasn't even aware of those comments. But he's already done enough horrid stuff that your point still stands.

The conversation sort of reminds me of the "seperate the art from the artist" subject.

And I do think we can seperate Bobby Hull the hockey player from who Bobby Hull was as a person.

Walkingthroughforest made a great point that publicly celebrating Hull's life would be insensitive. Especially since the domestic abuse and racist comments are rarely if ever mentioned in the media and should be at the forefront.

I also do think people can still have positive memories of public figures that brought joy to their lives whether through their work or something more personal, while simultaneously acknowledging the horrendous actions they've done. It's when people act like Hull was a great guy, is when we start having issues.

Look at all the people that still listen to John Lennon's music despite his domestic abuse history. I don't think that means the majority of his listeners condone his actions.

While I agree, burying the discussion of that side of his life to the hinterlands sends a different message, no?

 

[Transplanted Caper]

I do, in a way, appreciate or at least understand, the don't speak ill of the dead, or give it some time, mentality. And that people are more than just one thing, either good or bad, even for people whose bads are as egregious as Hull's. But, really, people aren't more than just one thing to everyone, right? For example, all the fans who had great experiences with Hull at a signing or an event, doesn't change what his wives went through. And they - and other people who've been victims of domestic violence - certainly shouldn't have to factor in how he treated OTHER people in assessing how THEY feel about him. And more than that, for all the teams doing tributes and press releases and the like, I just kept thinking of the women in those arenas. Probably thousands of them. Odds are, that it's almost assured some have been or ARE victims of domestic violence, not to mention anyone else in those crowds who've experienced racism or bigotry. I think it's pretty awful he was given on-ice tributes. At a certain point your behaviour off the ice negates your right to be honoured for your work on the ice. Hockey is REALLY only for everyone as long as the old guard is comfortable with letting that kind of progress through the gate.

EDIT: I'll also add, who he is as person matters a great deal. It always has. Sports has marketed their stars as such, and no one has gone deeper into the "good Canadian kid" trope as hockey. Once the game decides that marketing kids in shirts and ties, or donating money to charity or did the signing tours when retired or does ads for companies or anything else. They're more than just a stat line, the ones running the sport told us so. Once they've decided the "good" is relevant to selling the game, then to say the "bad" is off limits is absurd, head in the sand, thinking.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Umm................alright then?

Okay, his name his Bobby Johnson. He has a son Brett. He is NOT a superstar with the Chicago Blackhawks. He works on a farm. Does his son gain enough interest in hockey to make it in the NHL? I just assumed people reading it would see it that way.

What a ridiculous comment. Who knows? Hundreds of thousands of players made it to the NHL without being the sons of NHL superstars. What kind of dumb thing is that to bring up? Brett Hull was a HOF talent. Bobby Hull being his dad probably had little to do with him making it to the NHL so long as he had the same talent and played organized hockey.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

While I agree, burying the discussion of that side of his life to the hinterlands sends a different message, no?

Are these the hinterlands? Because for a topic like this, I'd strongly like to have it here - not just because it's relevant here, but because the discussions here are generally far more interesting (no offense to the main board folks).

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Are these the hinterlands? Because for a topic like this, I'd strongly like to have it here - not just because it's relevant here, but because the discussions here are generally far more interesting (no offense to the main board folks).

We've lived here long enough that we've finally turned into this: