Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

[Hasbro]

Well at least you've given a great example of exactly what I was talking about, so thanks for that. Always different to see main board level posts here.

I've had a consistent record of being outraged at people expressing admiration for Hitler. Never took the least bit of effort on my part. Guess I'm a natural.

 

[MXD]

Well at least you've given a great example of exactly what I was talking about, so thanks for that. Always different to see main board level posts here.

It seems to me that this :

Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

It's still a bit early in the overall timeline, but many people want to talk about Bobby Hull's full legacy, away from the typical decorum in a death announcement thread. So here we are - have at it. Re-read the rules below (I just developed these off the top of my head, so if you want to...

forums.hfboards.com

Is a much bigger offender in terms of drivel. Like imagine that a 700 goals scorer got a career because he was Bobby Hull's son.

Umm................alright then?

Okay, his name his Bobby Johnson. He has a son Brett. He is NOT a superstar with the Chicago Blackhawks. He works on a farm. Does his son gain enough interest in hockey to make it in the NHL? I just assumed people reading it would see it that way.

In which case you can say that of litterally EVERY NHL player and/or their dad. Why is it suddenly so noteworthy?

 

[Coffey]

I feel sorry for him.
Married three different women that beat him and he had to defend himself.

 

[clmetsfan]

Bobby Hull was basically Mickey Mantle in the NHL. Muscular, the fans loved him, bigger than life, blond hair, big smile, good with the fans and could lift you out of your seat with how he played. Also played in an era where the media had an interest in keeping things focused on the game and not their private life. Was that better? Yeah I think so. We've swung the pendulum the other way too much where we demand our sports stars fall in line with mainstream politics and we shame them for it if we don't think they do (eg. the way people talk about Ovechkin). Sports is an escape from that stuff, and few could do that better than Bobby Hull.

He also ought to be credited more than anyone with NHLers getting paid their market value. In 1972 while Hull was not able to play in the Summit Series he was given free tickets by Wayne Cashman I believe for one of the games. When Hull asked what he owed him Cashman said "Nothing. My salary tripled because of you!" Hull bolting to the WHA did this. This was a 50 goal scorer at the time doing this, a larger than life figure in the NHL. It wouldn't be ignored. And I don't think he gets enough credit for it.

Hull would sign every single autograph even if it meant he had to keep the team bus waiting. Regardless of his personal life, the guy shelled out for the fans perhaps as much as anyone ever has. I've read the tributes about him. It is one thing to read what is said on a message board, it is another thing to hear Hedberg or Nilsson or people that knew him well talk about him. There is a lot of nice things said about him. Maybe people don't like that, but oh well.

Now...........was there a side to Hull that was different from the rink? Yes I believe there was. I'm not denying that and I hope he made some peace with things in his private life. But my goodness, the guy's body is still warm and people are bringing out the "Hitler" comment, which I can still show you a Hockey News magazine from 1997 where that seemed like a debunked quote. I mean, can't we just appreciate the guy for his playing ability? We didn't know him off the ice. I know Brett and him had, what I would think sounded like a complicated relationship, would he have even made the NHL or gotten interest in the game without the old man?

You mention the Hitler comment as if it's the only reason why people would have a problem with the lionization of Bobby Hull, as if beating multiple wives and dangling one over a balcony is nothing. As if, when told about her father's supposed Hitler comment, his daughter didn't say "That's exactly like him."

It's incredible the mental gymnastics that people will go through so that they can justify their admiration for someone's athletic ability.

 

[clmetsfan]

Well at least you've given a great example of exactly what I was talking about, so thanks for that. Always different to see main board level posts here.

Oh give me a freaking break. As if you're a better arbiter of the man's legacy than his own daughter.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Always different to see main board level posts here.

I’m going to give you a pass specifically here, but yes, this is a personal attack. Knock it off.

 

[JackSlater]

I've had a consistent record of being outraged at people expressing admiration for Hitler. Never took the least bit of effort on my part. Guess I'm a natural.

Well you're clearly a very fine and virtuous person, but you might want to actually have a decent idea that the person said it. Again, the story of how that quote came to be does not seem credible and there are no other statements attributed to Hull that in any way seem similar.

Oh give me a freaking break. As if you're a better arbiter of the man's legacy than his own daughter.

I believe her completely when it comes to the domestic violence that she witnessed. I'm not sure that she is confirming that Hull was over in Moscow praising Hitler to the media and the people at his table.

I’m going to give you a pass specifically here, but yes, this is s personal attack. Knock it off.

Aye aye.

 

[The Macho King]

I don't think Stevens or Clarke have any risk of having their legacy tainted. Their playing style was widely accepted at the time and I think that's pretty clearly understood.

Steven's gang rape accusations have been very much lost in the threads of time, and Clarke's dealings with Lindros are pretty much all but forgotten.

You must not have read the Athletics article on Stevens for their project.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

You must not have read the Athletics article on Stevens for their project.

Can you link it?

Edit. Found it. It seems there wasn’t a ton of support for that article from any fanbase after reading the reactions. I agree that it’s silly to judge him for hits that were legal at the time by todays standard. We didn’t know about CTE or the full impact of concussions.

He played within the rules of the time. You have to be really ignorant to try and vilify that nearly two decades after his retirement.

 

[JoVel]

I have never understood why it should be a taboo to speak ill of the dead when talking of someone who was very much objectively a piece of shit. It's one thing to do it when talking of someone who, say, cheated on his spouse or whatever. That'd be a shitty thing to do. When we're talking of someone like Bobby Hull, it's not.

I'm much more inclined to say good riddance than rest in peace and I really don't think that should be a controversial thing to say either.

 

[Amazinmets73]

I'm interested in hearing opinions on how Hull's decision to join the WHL impacted the goal record. If Hull doesn't join and the league subsequently is unable to attract top players, Howe might have played several more seasons in the NHL. Furthermore, if Hull stays in the NHL for the duration of his career he likely scores 800+ goals.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Can you link it?

Edit. Found it. It seems there wasn’t a ton of support for that article from any fanbase after reading the reactions. I agree that it’s silly to judge him for hits that were legal at the time by todays standard. We didn’t know about CTE or the full impact of concussions.

He played within the rules of the time. You have to be really ignorant to try and vilify that nearly two decades after his retirement.

They were legal at the time...but some of those more predatory looking hits seem to be strictly with the intent to inflict pain and injure someone.

I'm tuning in to watch hockey, not star players have years shaved off their life by someone.

 

[Voight]

Oh absolutely not. His daughter confirmed that was his attitude. Being outraged at someone being a pronazi bigot isn't at all a reach. Isn't for Ralph Englestad, Kanye West of Bobby Hull.

She may have said its like him but thats one person saying that. Whos to say he actually did make those kinds of comments?

 

[clmetsfan]

I believe her completely when it comes to the domestic violence that she witnessed. I'm not sure that she is confirming that Hull was over in Moscow praising Hitler to the media and the people at his table.

I'm sure she's confirming that her dad was a racist who said things like that in private.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

They were legal at the time...but some of those more predatory looking hits seem to be strictly with the intent to inflict pain and injure someone.

I'm tuning in to watch hockey, not star players have years shaved off their life by someone.

Right, but that doesn’t change my point. These were hits that the NHL deemed legal and thus encouraged. I think it’s dishonest to retroactively put your morality on something like this.

Watching them with todays eyes is definitely difficult, but the context is really important.

This was a problem of the NHL deeming these hits as legal. Passing the buck onto Stevens for playing within the rules of the game is a foolish argument.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Friendly reminder that Stevens didn't even get a penalty for the Kariya hit. Not a suspension, not 5 and a game. No, not even 2 minutes.

Stevens also did not receive a penalty for the Lindros hit.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Right, but that doesn’t change my point. These were hits that the NHL deemed legal and thus encouraged. I think it’s dishonest to retroactively put your morality on something like this.

Watching them with todays eyes is definitely difficult, but the context is really important.

This was a problem of the NHL deeming these hits as legal. Passing the buck onto Stevens for playing within the rules of the game is a foolish argument.

I can totally dislike how they played the game even if you say that's influenced by modern standards.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I'm sure she's confirming that her dad was a racist who said things like that in private.

99% of people will say things in private that they would never put on the public record.

Source: myself and basically every person I've ever known.

You could invent 1000 statements that "sound like something I'd say" according to my family...this doesn't mean I ever actually made the statement.

 

[norrisnick]

99% of people will say things in private that they would never put on the public record.

Source: myself and basically every person I've ever known.

You could invent 1000 statements that "sound like something I'd say" according to my family...this doesn't mean I ever actually made the statement.

The point in this side discussion is that the bolded doesn't matter.

Whether or not Hull made a potentially flattering comment about Hitler in a specific instance really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
It's that his family wouldn't be surprised if he had that carries weight as that speaks to the underlying character.

Not saying something in public but having said it in private doesn't make you a better person.

 

[The Macho King]

99% of people will say things in private that they would never put on the public record.

Source: myself and basically every person I've ever known.

You could invent 1000 statements that "sound like something I'd say" according to my family...this doesn't mean I ever actually made the statement.

I cuss a bit more in private. I talk about poop more in private. I definitely talk more shit about coworkers in private.

I don't talk about the supposed inferiority or superiority of various races in private.

And a statement like that is basically just telling on yourself, so thanks for that.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I cuss a bit more in private. I talk about poop more in private. I definitely talk more shit about coworkers in private.

I don't talk about the supposed inferiority or superiority of various races in private.

And a statement like that is basically just telling on yourself, so thanks for that.

Yeah really hate the "well we all have our warts crowd"

 

[MeHateHe]

99% of people will say things in private that they would never put on the public record.

If 99% of your friends are saying mildly complimentary things about Adolf Hitler, you might reconsider your friend group. There are degrees of abhorrent things to say. Even verbally making the case for one of history's worst mass murderers is a pretty strong statement about your character.

 

[clmetsfan]

99% of people will say things in private that they would never put on the public record.

Source: myself and basically every person I've ever known.

You could invent 1000 statements that "sound like something I'd say" according to my family...this doesn't mean I ever actually made the statement.

Well, if those statements are horribly racist stuff like 'the black population is growing too quickly' and 'Hitler had some good ideas, he just went too far,' then I feel pretty comfortable taking the word of whoever's family and assuming that person is horribly racist.

 

[JackSlater]

I'm sure she's confirming that her dad was a racist who said things like that in private.

Well you can assume that if you like. Hull's daughter disliking him, and being justified in doing so, is pretty clear. That Hull was a fan of Hitler or racist might be true, but the genesis of the claim is essentially worthless. People are going to read into things what they want, on either side, but a generic "sounds like him" from one person doesn't really cut it for me.

 

[MS]

I don't think Stevens or Clarke have any risk of having their legacy tainted. Their playing style was widely accepted at the time and I think that's pretty clearly understood.

Steven's gang rape accusations have been very much lost in the threads of time, and Clarke's dealings with Lindros are pretty much all but forgotten.

Stevens' part in the gang rape thing was very minor and I don't think history can really hold it against him too much. Ciccarelli on the other hand ...

The point in this side discussion is that the bolded doesn't matter.

Whether or not Hull made a potentially flattering comment about Hitler in a specific instance really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
It's that his family wouldn't be surprised if he had that carries weight as that speaks to the underlying character.

Not saying something in public but having said it in private doesn't make you a better person.

One thing I will say about racism is that it's hard to judge people historically by the standards of today.

Damned near everyone had casually racist points of view in the 1950s and even fairly progressive viewpoints for the time would look racist as hell by the turn of the century.

If 99% of your friends are saying mildly complimentary things about Adolf Hitler, you might reconsider your friend group. There are degrees of abhorrent things to say. Even verbally making the case for one of history's worst mass murderers is a pretty strong statement about your character.

The funny thing is that Hitler did actually have some good ideas ... about things like small affordable cars, race tracks, architecture, and the modern Olympics.

But nobody is talking about these sorts of things when they say 'Hitler had some good ideas'.