Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

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Look at all the people that still listen to John Lennon's music despite his domestic abuse history. I don't think that means the majority of his listeners condone his actions.
And now we're back to main-board-style unverified claims. John Lennon does not have a "domestic abuse history" of the type you're making it sound like. He himself openly admitted (in The Beatles' only authorized biography, from 1968) that he had hit Cynthia once, early in their marriage. He was asked before the book was published if he wanted to take that comment out, but he said, "No" and that they should keep it in. They did.

Cynthia herself, after John's death, wrote that that was the one and only time in their history that John hit her, and that he felt really bad about it.

Lennon later wrote feminist-themed songs and consciously changed his entire outlook, much to his credit.
 
Or Craig McTavish. I mean, he freaking killed a woman from drunk driving. Yet, he's more known for being the last player without a helmet than vehicular homicide. Will he be remembered more positively even though he killed a completely innocent person?
There is a thing called forgiveness and (in some cases) redemption, which are generally very central and important to civilized societies.

McTavish made a terrible mistake when he was 25 years old. He had too much to drink and got behind the wheel of a vehicle.

Now, how many on this board have done that once? Twice? I'm guessing several. We know Ray Bourque did it not long ago, and he was much more drunk than MacTavish was. Then, how many NHL-ers, especially in the mid-1980s, had done the same? I'm guessing dozens or hundreds.

MacTavish did his time and has since quietly done what he could for the family of the victim he accidentally killed. He pays his penance every day, I'm sure.

Given that, I am perfectly able to forgive him. That doesn't mean we should forget what he did, but we need to also look at how he responded to his misdeed and how he tried to atone for it.
 
the whitewashing of his off the ice legacy is enraging.

newsflash, it's possible to be a great athlete and a total piece of crap at the same time. pointing out his blatant racism and nazi sympathizing shouldn't be controversial. it's not canceling someone to make them accountable for their actions.
 
And now we're back to main-board-style unverified claims. John Lennon does not have a "domestic abuse history" of the type you're making it sound like. He himself openly admitted (in The Beatles' only authorized biography, from 1968) that he had hit Cynthia once, early in their marriage. He was asked before the book was published if he wanted to take that comment out, but he said, "No" and that they should keep it in. They did.

Cynthia herself, after John's death, wrote that that was the one and only time in their history that John hit her, and that he felt really bad about it.

Lennon later wrote feminist-themed songs and consciously changed his entire outlook, much to his credit.
I'll take your word for it. Probably should have looked into it more. Replace John Lennon with any type of celebrity that puts out good work but is controversial as a person and my point still stands.
 
As far as Bobby Hull's legacy goes, his hockey legacy is amazing, and his personal legacy is not good.

The Hitler-comments I don't entirely trust. It seems likely he said something untoward, but I cannot trust that media source, from a non-native English speaker, with no recording or corroboratory evidence to support it. So, I would tend to avoid commenting on that. (And no, the fact that one of his daughters, with an ax to grind, casually said "it sounds like something he would say" doesn't mean he said it.)

However, we know he had spousal abuse issues and was an irresponsible father (for the latter, he would not be alone among hockey players or wealthy, powerful men).

At the time of someone's death, I would personally like to remember their higher and better traits (provided they weren't violent monsters who intentionally killed people).

Hull was noted as perhaps the first great ambassador of the game, and the dominant hockey personality of the 1960s. He was exceptionally good with fans and kids.

So, yes, there is more than enough evidence that he was very unlikeable in several ways, but we're remembering him as a hockey player first... the rest is really just personal stuff for his family and friends to work out.

the whitewashing of his off the ice legacy is enraging.
This is an interesting take. Where do you see this 'whitewashing' of his legacy?
 
While I agree, burying the discussion of that side of his life to the hinterlands sends a different message, no?
Idk id you're reffering to this thread being hidden here? If so, I do think HOH is the most fitting forum for a discussion regarding Hull's legacy. Or any former player for that matter.

At the same time, I do think it's unfortunate that the main board thread doesn't have the same openness to discussing Hull's legacy as this one. I don't agree with the decision, but at least the mods linked this thread on the main board one.
 
There was a whole spreadsheet posted a while back, in another thread, listing the long history of horrible off-ice incidents that have stained the NHL.

One that always comes to mind for me is Doug Gilmour's molestation of an underage girl while he was in St. Louis. Went on to win a Cup in Calgary and also remains a legend here in Toronto for his play with the Leafs. Either most fans simply aren't aware of what he did, or they don't care. :dunno:

For what it's worth, I'd say what Bobby Hull did and said, over the years, pales in comparison to an act like that. But that's just my .02
Re: Doug Gilmour

He was alleged to have had an affair with a 13-year-old girl in St. Louis...it went to Court but I don't think there was ever a judgement.

It was quite well-known at the time, and he was heckled by fans throughout the NHL during his first year in Calgary. After that, it seemed to have been mostly forgotten....different times, and maybe winning the Cup that season helped a little. At the time of the trade to Toronto, I think most fans didn't even know about it.

Same with Denis Potvin, who's wife accused him of beating her up. This was in Court documents. Heckled by Rangers fans, especially, for a while....then largely forgotten.
 
the whitewashing of his off the ice legacy is enraging.

newsflash, it's possible to be a great athlete and a total piece of crap at the same time. pointing out his blatant racism and nazi sympathizing shouldn't be controversial. it's not canceling someone to make them accountable for their actions.

Actually, it should be controversial considering there's no credible evidence Hull really said the things attributed to him, and he vehemently denied saying them. I'll say it again, why the hell would some random Russian journalist be asking Bobby Hull about Hitler in the 1990s, and why the hell should we really care anyway? Are we going to ask Sidney Crosby for his opinion on Pol Pot while we're at it?

The spousal abuse is a much different story. There doesn't seem to be any doubt at all that it occurred as reported. If somebody wants to pillory the man for those actions, have at it. It's indefensible behaviour, plain and simple, and whether or not/how much that affects his legacy to a fan on a personal level is entirely up to the person. But enough of this Hitler shit, it's beyond ridiculous.
 
Re: Doug Gilmour

He was alleged to have had an affair with a 13-year-old girl in St. Louis...it went to Court but I don't think there was ever a judgement.

It was quite well-known at the time, and he was heckled by fans throughout the NHL during his first year in Calgary. After that, it seemed to have been mostly forgotten....different times, and maybe winning the Cup that season helped a little. At the time of the trade to Toronto, I think most fans didn't even know about it.

Same with Denis Potvin, who's wife accused him of beating her up. This was in Court documents. Heckled by Rangers fans, especially, for a while....then largely forgotten.
The grand jury did not indict.

On the civil side, I am not sure what happened to the suit filed by the babysitter's family or the one filed by Gilmour and his wife. No doubt any settlement was accompanied by a non-disclosure agreement.
 
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Bobby Hull's reputation is ruined forever. His statue in Chicago will likely be coming down at some point.

Scott Stevens and Bobby Clarke are in similar situations, obviously for different reasons. They will not be remembered well. Even now, for younger generations, their hockey play is very much secondary.
 
Bobby Hull's reputation is ruined forever. His statue in Chicago will likely be coming down at some point.

Scott Stevens and Bobby Clarke are in similar situations, obviously for different reasons. They will not be remembered well. Even now, for younger generations, their hockey play is very much secondary.
I don't think Stevens or Clarke have any risk of having their legacy tainted. Their playing style was widely accepted at the time and I think that's pretty clearly understood.

Steven's gang rape accusations have been very much lost in the threads of time, and Clarke's dealings with Lindros are pretty much all but forgotten.
 
I don't think Stevens or Clarke have any risk of having their legacy tainted. Their playing style was widely accepted at the time and I think that's pretty clearly understood.

Steven's gang rape accusations have been very much lost in the threads of time, and Clarke's dealings with Lindros are pretty much all but forgotten.
They already have bad reputations with a lot of people. I can't see it getting any better for either.

I wasn't thinking about the rape accusations, but about the hits causing concussions.
 
They already have bad reputations with a lot of people. I can't see it getting any better for either.

I wasn't thinking about the rape accusations, but about the hits causing concussions.
Ah, I don't think that's going to matter. People can recognize different generations of players and rules. I also bet that most new hockey fans couldn't even tell you who either of them were.

In the grand scheme of things, the most famous thing Bobby ever did was break Kharlamov's ankle during a literal war on ice. Stevens has hits that are still romanticized to this day. I can't see either of them facing any sort of serious backlash or repercussions.
 
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Apparently Bobby Hull suffered abuse as a child. I don't know what type of abuse, or the severity....maybe somebody else knows more about this....
 
Ah, I don't think that's going to matter. People can recognize different generations of players and rules. I also bet that most new hockey fans couldn't even tell you who either of them were.

In the grand scheme of things, the most famous thing Bobby ever did was break Kharlamov's ankle during a literal war on ice. Stevens has hits that are still romanticized to this day. I can't see either of them facing any sort of serious backlash or repercussions.
They're certainly different than the situation with Bobby Hull. Nobody is going to defend Hull's abuse towards his family. For Clarke and Stevens, opinion is very polarized, and that's not going to change. Clarke is the face of the dirtiest period in modern NHL history....and Stevens is the face of concussion-causing hits.
 
They're certainly different than the situation with Bobby Hull. Nobody is going to defend Hull's abuse towards his family. For Clarke and Stevens, opinion is very polarized, and that's not going to change. Clarke is the face of the dirtiest period in modern NHL history....and Stevens is the face of concussion-causing hits.
Unless there's some movement which I'm unaware of, I think this may be something that's being made out of nothing. No one has ever particularly liked Bobby Clarke, but the Broad Street Bullies era of hockey is very romanticized, and honestly do you think some late teen's early 20 year old is really going to care that much? Stevens to the same amount.

They're both HHOF players and no one is really talking about them.
 
There are a few aspects of Hull's legacy as a hockey player that I find worthy of examination. The WHA was very important in the 70s to giving players more power around the careers, and Hull's commitment to them, and the subsequent increase in player salaries is a significant part of his legacy. On the other hand, the legacy of the WHA is more devalued the further away we get from it, as it's barely relevant in 2 NHL markets, and salaries continue to increase. Nobody really cares about the WHA as a league anymore, as it's been over 40 years since it folded. It's seen as an innovative league that ultimately contributed to over-expansion, and the majority of players as minor leaguers. Hull's 400 games in the WHA have thus become almost irrelevant to his legacy. He's remembered as being a great player there, but his stats aren't NHL stats. The same sort of thing happens with Jagr's sojourn in the KHL in the mid-2000s. He did well over there, yet nobody cares because it wasn't in the NHL.

The second part of his legacy involves his position as #5 on both the 2008 and 2018 top-100 lists. He was a fairly consensus pick both times, and yet if we hosted another project this year, he might not finish in the top 10. His legacy as the premiere goal-scoring winger has been almost completely swallowed up by Alex Ovechkin. When his competition was Maurice Richard and Mike Bossy (Howe being seen as more a playmaking wing, comparitively speaking), both of whom played less games in the NHL than him, his litany of statistical accomplishments (the 7 Rockets, the 3 Ross, et cetera) gave his career a glitter that other players were hard-pressed to match. Now that Ovechkin's coming up on 300 more games played in the NHL, with him averaging 50 goals/82 games played at age 20, age 24, age 28, age 32, and age 36, just a remarkable legacy of consistency, Hull's NHL career starts getting nit-picked because someone came along where you compare the two careers and Hull's about as good, but he's not better. I feel like the same sort of thing could occur with Beliveau and Crosby in the coming years, maybe a little less so because Beliveau's legacy is so tied up in Cups, rather than overwhelming statistical dominance. He was really good for a really long time, just like Crosby, but he's not better. Neither Crosby nor Ovechkin have really added to their legacies over the past 5 seasons, but they have added a bit over 300 games apiece in line with their career averages as they age gracefully into the back half of their careers.

Finally, like the Richard first-hand viewers aged out of contributing to the discourse, so too now are the Hull viewers. The young ones who watched Hull growing up are now retired. That lack of nostalgia towards him, combined with the rougher image around Hull's post-retirement life, is likely to lead towards less of a hagiography around his hockey career, unlike someone such as Beliveau, whose legacy was burnished by his post-hockey image.
 
Hull is 5 all time taking into consideration his abbreviated NHL Career fastest skater and hardest shot what a combo

Invented the Slapper more or less

Curve blade

Could very easily finished NHL career with 800-900 goals if no WHA

Don’t care about his issues off ice. He could of been GOAT
 
The Hitler quote still being brought up is primarily the product of laziness as when you look into it (basically a random news contributor interrupted Hull's dinner in Moscow to ask him random questions, had no recording or any person willing to corroborate what he said and the Russian newspaper didn't bother checking) it seems highly unlikely.

I'd say that there being no evidence other than one Russian news contributor (I believe I recall that he was not even employed by the newspaper as a journalist) claiming it, with no recording or people to corroborate his story despite the conversation happening in a restaurant with others at the table, is more than enough reason to highly doubt it. It's an incredibly outlandish claim for a person to make, especially to someone in media.

The Hitler-comments I don't entirely trust. It seems likely he said something untoward, but I cannot trust that media source, from a non-native English speaker, with no recording or corroboratory evidence to support it. So, I would tend to avoid commenting on that. (And no, the fact that one of his daughters, with an ax to grind, casually said "it sounds like something he would say" doesn't mean he said it.)
This post isn't meant as a refutation, but more as a point of clarification.

I've edited the above quotes for brevity and just want to comment that The Moscow Times was, I believe, at that time not a Russian-owned publication. It's been some time since I've read about its ownership and operating history but IIRC it was a publication started by a person from the Netherlands and intended for English-speaking audiences. At that time there were a lot of foreign journalists and businessmen interested in on-the-ground reporting that larger networks, I suspect, didn't devote their resources to.

The media landscape in Russia then was not what it is today and shouldn't be judged as such, but I cannot speak to the journalist or the article in question.
 
Nobody doubts that, but honestly any poster looking to harp on the Hitler claims loses credibility and looks like someone grasping for outrage. The domestic abuse is enough to classify Hull in a very negative manner.
Oh absolutely not. His daughter confirmed that was his attitude. Being outraged at someone being a pronazi bigot isn't at all a reach. Isn't for Ralph Englestad, Kanye West of Bobby Hull.
 
Oh absolutely not. His daughter confirmed that was his attitude. Being outraged at someone being a pronazi bigot isn't at all a reach. Isn't for Ralph Englestad, Kanye West of Bobby Hull.
Well at least you've given a great example of exactly what I was talking about, so thanks for that. Always different to see main board level posts here.
 
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