Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

[Bear of Bad News]

Anyway, what is it you want to do? Pretend that arguably the greatest left winger in NHL history never existed? He was a great hockey player, an all-time great. And he was accused of doing some bad things. Both exist.

Strawman. Who's pretending that Hull doesn't exist? (Certainly no one in this thread).

And "he was accused of doing some bad things"? You're not typically a master of understatement, but in this case, well done. And the moon landing was just a holiday road trip.

 

[Bocephus86]

I'm always "old and white" in these situations, I guess.

Anyway, what is it you want to do? Pretend that arguably the greatest left winger in NHL history never existed? He was a great hockey player, an all-time great. And he was accused of doing some bad things. Both exist.

You do just what so many of us do with people like this: "He was extraordinary at X, but a monumental piece of crap human". Ignoring that other piece whitewashes reality.

Just like Walt Disney was a great animator and a massive anti semite. Or Henry Ford was an incredible businessman but also a nazi sympathizer.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

I'm always "old and white" in these situations, I guess.

Anyway, what is it you want to do? Pretend that arguably the greatest left winger in NHL history never existed? He was a great hockey player, an all-time great. And he was accused of doing some bad things. Both exist.

Phil, you are an old white man. It's not a knock, it's just something that is a generational. I have the same problem with my dad. There are nuances that weren't widely explored 20-40 years ago.

I don't think we should ignore Bobby. I think we are able to acknowledge the positives his legacy had on the NHL and hockey without ignoring or downplaying that he was a harmful abuser.

 

[Big Phil]

This is nothing more than vapid hogwash.

I'm not Brett Hull nor does his relationship with his dad should have any influence of what I think of Bobby Hull.

You are free to think how you'd like. I am just saying that it seems his own flesh and blood who would have had a front row seat for a lot of stuff seems to have made peace with him. That has to at least count for something. And again, you can call Hull a great hockey player, a bad father/husband, an abusive father/husband, and have a situation where perhaps his family and him made peace. All can be true. I mentioned Mantle, it seems like all of the hurt he caused he took blame for it. Pat Summerall...................another interesting story of a guy most of us loved whose own daughter wanted to once change her last name because she was ashamed of him. They made up. We still think of Summerall as an all-time great announcer.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Jesus christ man, it's a figure of speech. The inability of some of you folks to discern any nuance whatsoever from the posts you're replying to is really something to behold.

What nuance is there to discern?

His daughter confirmed that her father was violent and racist. Why would she make that up?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I'm always "old and white" in these situations, I guess.

Anyway, what is it you want to do? Pretend that arguably the greatest left winger in NHL history never existed? He was a great hockey player, an all-time great. And he was accused of doing some bad things. Both exist.

'Accused of doing some bad things?'

Says a lot. A lot.

 

[Big Phil]

Phil, you are an old white man. It's not a knock, it's just something that is a generational. I have the same problem with my dad. There are nuances that weren't widely explored 20-40 years ago.

I don't think we should ignore Bobby. I think we are able to acknowledge the positives his legacy had on the NHL and hockey without ignoring or downplaying that he was a harmful abuser.

I always love the "you're old and white" group that comes on here who has never met the person.

You do just what so many of us do with people like this: "He was extraordinary at X, but a monumental piece of crap human". Ignoring that other piece whitewashes reality.

Just like Walt Disney was a great animator and a massive anti semite. Or Henry Ford was an incredible businessman but also a nazi sympathizer.

Not sure about Ford. Disney was given the B'Nai Brith award in 1955. Has had countless people come to his defense - that he worked with - debunking the anti-semite thing and two of the most important people - the Sherman brothers - in his company were....................Jews. Disney worked with them all of the time. I have often said if Walt was an anti-semite he wasn't very good at it.

Now, Hull is more likely to have actually done the things he has been accused of. But hopefully this shows you that you can't just eat up everything you read.

Strawman. Who's pretending that Hull doesn't exist? (Certainly no one in this thread).

And "he was accused of doing some bad things"? You're not typically a master of understatement, but in this case, well done. And the moon landing was just a holiday road trip.

There is already that main board mentality on here that his statue ought to be taken down. So I think there is the attitude that he ought to be cancelled. Scroll through this thread, how much actual talk about his hockey legacy is here?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

There is already that main board mentality on here that his statue ought to be taken down. So I think there is the attitude that he ought to be cancelled. Scroll through this thread, how much actual talk about his hockey legacy is here?

(1) Who gives a shit about the main board?
(2) People (here) clearly want to talk about the stuff Hull's done.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

I always love the "you're old and white" group that comes on here who has never met the person.



Not sure about Ford. Disney was given the B'Nai Brith award in 1955. Has had countless people come to his defense - that he worked with - debunking the anti-semite thing and two of the most important people - the Sherman brothers - in his company were....................Jews. Disney worked with them all of the time. I have often said if Walt was an anti-semite he wasn't very good at it.

Now, Hull is more likely to have actually done the things he has been accused of. But hopefully this shows you that you can't just eat up everything you read.



There is already that main board mentality on here that his statue ought to be taken down. So I think there is the attitude that he ought to be cancelled. Scroll through this thread, how much actual talk about his hockey legacy is here?

Come on, don't act like this. This isn't a personal shot to you. If you can't acknowledge that your generation dealt with these behaviours very differently than there's no point in continuing this. We're trying to educate you on why what you're saying is harmful. Please try and listen without getting defensive.

Bobby's legacy is complicated, which is why there is less of a discussion about his hockey achievements and more on the pieces that are difficult and triggering.

 

[Big Phil]

'Accused of doing some bad things?'

Says a lot. A lot.

He most likely did it. I don't think anyone is trying to downplay it. I have never been abusive to my wife so that is just not on my radar. I am just saying from what I know, his wife didn't testify against him. In other words it wasn't proven in court. It doesn't mean I personally don't think he did it. I personally do.

 

[Big Phil]

Come on, don't act like this. This isn't a personal shot to you. If you can't acknowledge that your generation dealt with these behaviours very differently than there's no point in continuing this. We're trying to educate you on why what you're saying is harmful. Please try and listen without getting defensive.

Bobby's legacy is complicated, which is why there is less of a discussion about his hockey achievements and more on the pieces that are difficult and triggering.

Bobby is older than my father. Brett is older than me. He'd be an older brother to me. I don't want to rain on your parade, I'm not terribly old, I'm a huge hockey history buff, that's why it seems like I was around when the Rocket was playing. I'm not. Sorry.

You don't have to tell me what language or actions are good or not. I am trying to say that does it have to overshadow one of the most prolific careers in the history of the game to the point where people act like we can't just talk about the hockey player?

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

He most likely did it. I don't think anyone is trying to downplay it. I have never been abusive to my wife so that is just not on my radar. I am just saying from what I know, his wife didn't testify against him. In other words it wasn't proven in court. It doesn't mean I personally don't think he did it. I personally do.

Ok now this is infuriating. Joanne has gone on the record saying that Bobby beat her with a steel toed shoe and nearly threw her to her death from a balcony. His children all report that he beat their mother repeatedly. His daughter has gone on record saying that she became a domestic abuse lawyer because of the violence she saw her father inflict on her mother. His third wife called the police on Bobby after he beat her.

Please tell us which of these are potential lies, and more importantly, why any of his family members would lie about this.

Bobby is older than my father. Brett is older than me. He'd be an older brother to me. I don't want to rain on your parade, I'm not terribly old, I'm a huge hockey history buff, that's why it seems like I was around when the Rocket was playing. I'm not. Sorry.

You don't have to tell me what language or actions are good or not. I am trying to say that does it have to overshadow one of the most prolific careers in the history of the game to the point where people act like we can't just talk about the hockey player?

No one insinuated you were 84 years old. But the Boomer/early GenX generation definitely has blind spots in these discussions.

To the bold: Who is saying that? We're saying that we should not talk about one without the other.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I am trying to say that does it have to overshadow one of the most prolific careers in the history of the game to the point where people act like we can't just talk about the hockey player?

You keep insisting upon this strawman. Why? Talking about "A and B" does not mean that folks are ignoring A.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

He most likely did it. I don't think anyone is trying to downplay it. I have never been abusive to my wife so that is just not on my radar. I am just saying from what I know, his wife didn't testify against him. In other words it wasn't proven in court. It doesn't mean I personally don't think he did it. I personally do.

You most definitely have been downplaying it, whether you mean to or not.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

You really are telling on yourself with this second paragraph, doubling down on an earlier statement you made. Let me illustrate why with a prior example:

Let's say I often talk shit about my coworkers in private and my kid has overheard it many times. Later on someone claims I was making fun of coworker 'x' for being stupid. If that gets back to my kid they would say 'that sounds like him'. If I never talked crap about coworkers in private then they wouldn't say that.

So in this other scenario, it's about saying 'Hitler had some good ideas'. If my child then says 'Sounds like something he'd say' it would certainly indicate that similar (racist and/or hitler-praising) statements are common from 'me' in private.

If you are associating with people, or are one yourself, that thinks things like this are 'ok' in private then I'd take a step back and think.

Well man, if you're one of the mythical 1% of people that has never said anything in private that you wouldn't want read out on the evening news, pat yourself of the back I guess.

But the original point is, there is still no proof of Hull's comments in the Russian newspaper. The guy beat his wife, is that not enough for us to make a judgement of his character? His opinion of Adolf Hitler should be immaterial in comparison to the actual, real abuse he committed against his family. Harping on unsubstantiated comments from decades ago is just lazy virtue signaling.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Phil, you are an old white man. It's not a knock, it's just something that is a generational. I have the same problem with my dad. There are nuances that weren't widely explored 20-40 years ago.

I don't think we should ignore Bobby. I think we are able to acknowledge the positives his legacy had on the NHL and hockey without ignoring or downplaying that he was a harmful abuser.

Just checking in here. I do think it is best to consider both sides of a player, and when it comes to a superstar like Hull, we should not be surprised to hear strong views on both sides.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone for voicing their objections about Hull, at least when it comes to the domestic abuse stuff (the alleged Nazi stuff seems less certain, and Hull's denial should be just as strongly noted in any fair conversation.) But since walkingthroughforest brings up age,, this (sort of) white old man would like to mention something that he doesn't thank has changed these last 20 to40 years.

Last week or so I saw TV sports people pile on that Russian dude who didn't want to dress in Pride colours during warmup. Both of the announcers were around 40, and they carried on in the harshest terms.

Given their vitriol, I found myself wondering if either had ever called out another player for his earlier support of Putin. If not, am I to conclude that these announcers are both pro-LGBT and pro Putin?

Yes, we truly have made considerable and laudable social progress these last 20-40 years, if not since the 1960s. But let's not too carried away about what that means about the way we are nowadays - at least as long as we continue to project heartfelt anger at selected targets, while looking away when it comes to others that do similar or worse things.

 

[95Tal]

Strawman. Who's pretending that Hull doesn't exist? (Certainly no one in this thread).

That wasn't a strawman, it was a rhetorical question.



This thread is a poisoned apple--so tempting to take a bite...

I will say simply that in my experience no person is truly qualified to take the moral high ground. Hull just died so it's all on the surface but in time he will become what he is to everyone outside his family, just another flawed historical figure. We shouldn't be making more of pro athletes than they really are--just entertainers. And if some wish to talk hockey and invoke his name once in a while, that's fine by me. I can always just ignore the thread/post/whatever if that's my wish.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Just checking in here. I do think it is best to consider both sides of a player, and when it comes to a superstar like Hull, we should not be surprised to hear strong views on both sides.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone for voicing their objections about Hull, at least when it comes to the domestic abuse stuff (the alleged Nazi stuff seems less certain, and Hull's denial should be just as strongly noted in any fair conversation.) But since walkingthroughforest brings up age,, this (sort of) white old man would like to mention something that he doesn't thank has changed these last 20 to40 years.

Last week or so I saw TV sports people pile on that Russian dude who didn't want to dress in Pride colours during warmup. Both of the announcers were around 40, and they carried on in the harshest terms.

Given their vitriol, I found myself wondering if either had ever called out another player for his earlier support of Putin. If not, am I to conclude that these announcers are both pro-LGBT and pro Putin?

Yes, we truly have made considerable and laudable social progress these last 20-40 years, if not since the 1960s. But let's not too carried away about what that means about the way we are nowadays - at least as long as we continue to project heartfelt anger at selected targets, while looking away when it comes to others that do similar or worse things.

I think this is veering into whataboutism. Just because not every problem is solved, or people haven’t acted perfectly in the past doesn’t mean we can’t call out problematic issues in front of us and try to do better.

 

[PeE eL DuBoiS]

If the world was absent of hockey players like Bobby Hull, it wouldn't change much if we are being honest. If the world was absent of men that abused women and children, it would be a hell of a lot better.

When I try try to reconcile these things, I only arrive at feeling like this guy isn't worth remembering.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

That wasn't a strawman, it was a rhetorical question.



This thread is a poisoned apple--so tempting to take a bite...

I will say simply that in my experience no person is truly qualified to take the moral high ground.

Stopped right there because this is number one bullshit. I most definitely am qualified to take the moral high ground above a serial woman beater and racist. Stop trying to downplay his atrocious deeds because he's dead.

 

[sharkbyte]

I find it pretty amusing when people say some kind of variation of "we all have our problems" or "who are we to take the moral high ground" as if we have all beaten or abused our partners and what not.

Same thing with the Mitchell Miller situation. While I think it was a minority of people, you still had people saying "as if you didn't make mistakes when you were a kid." Like yeah I made mistakes as a kid, but verbally abusing and bullying a kid with developmental disabilities was assuredly not one of them

 

[95Tal]

Stopped right there because this is number one bullshit. I most definitely am qualified to take the moral high ground above a serial woman beater and racist. Stop trying to downplay his atrocious deeds because he's dead.

Fair enough. There are bigger issues out there for me besides celebrities, so I wish you a good night.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I find it pretty amusing when people say some kind of variation of "we all have our problems" or "who are we to take the moral high ground" as if we have all beaten or abused our partners and what not.

Same thing with the Mitchell Miller situation. While I think it was a minority of people, you still had people saying "as if you didn't make mistakes when you were a kid." Like yeah I made mistakes as a kid, but verbally abusing and bullying a kid with developmental disabilities was assuredly not one of them

Oh, who wasn't a sociopath in middle school?

 

[Big Phil]

You most definitely have been downplaying it, whether you mean to or not.

You keep insisting upon this strawman. Why? Talking about "A and B" does not mean that folks are ignoring A.

To me it is just bad taste and lacks class to pile on the way people have even before the body cools. Look, Jude Hull, Brett's son, seems to have enough of it. I'm with him on this, its just ugly hearing the way people talk about him.

Bobby Hull's grandson slams back at critics following the death of his grandfather

Earlier this week, Bobby Hull died at 84. Hull is the Chicago Blackhawks’ all-time leading goal scorer and is considered one of the best NHL players ever. He played for 16 seasons for the Chicago ...

www.thehockeybeast.com

Ok now this is infuriating. Joanne has gone on the record saying that Bobby beat her with a steel toed shoe and nearly threw her to her death from a balcony. His children all report that he beat their mother repeatedly. His daughter has gone on record saying that she became a domestic abuse lawyer because of the violence she saw her father inflict on her mother. His third wife called the police on Bobby after he beat her.

Please tell us which of these are potential lies, and more importantly, why any of his family members would lie about this.



No one insinuated you were 84 years old. But the Boomer/early GenX generation definitely has blind spots in these discussions.

To the bold: Who is saying that? We're saying that we should not talk about one without the other.

No one said they are lying.

Ah, now you finally slid away from that idea I'm the age of Bobby Hull and progressed towards GenX. You're getting better Walkingthroughforest.

 

[The Panther]

I find it pretty amusing when people say some kind of variation of "we all have our problems" or "who are we to take the moral high ground" as if we have all beaten or abused our partners and what not.

Same thing with the Mitchell Miller situation. While I think it was a minority of people, you still had people saying "as if you didn't make mistakes when you were a kid." Like yeah I made mistakes as a kid, but verbally abusing and bullying a kid with developmental disabilities was assuredly not one of them

You may, however, be missing a larger point that's being made. Your opinion (as stated) is coming from a position of moral certainty, and you are equally certain that you, and everyone else, can be the arbiter of what is morally acceptable and what isn't. For example, your post that I quote here shows you stating that "abusing a partner" is morally unacceptable and that "verbally abusing and bullying a kid with developmental disabilities" is morally unacceptable, whereas "ma(king) mistakes" is okay.

Now, it may indeed be the case that 90% (or 100%, or 65%, or whatever) of people in a given society agree with you that verbally abusing a kid with disabilities is morally unacceptable. But I am certain that several people who agree with you on that have, in fact, verbally abused kids---maybe some with developmental disabilities---when they were kids. Is any of us free of what you would label morally unacceptable behavior? In other words, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

But the larger point you may be missing is that you are constructing a binary of morally acceptable/unacceptable behavior and assuming that there are clear lines between one and the other, when in fact there is a continuum. And when there is a continuum, there is NEVER mass agreement on what is "okay" and what "isn't okay". There is no clear line.

So, according to you and some on here, Bobby Hull's actions are morally unacceptable and thus we should castigate him. But then what a Hall of Famer who did one incident of spousal abuse but otherwise has a clean, upstanding record? Then, what about another Hall of Famer who didn't sympathize with Hitler or his his wife, but abandoned his kids? What about another who did none of the preceding things, but committed a robbery when he was 17? What about another who did none of the above but got his high school girlfriend pregnant and pushed her into having an abortion? What about another who spilt some milk once at age 12?

What I'm saying is, the line between 'absolutely okay" and "not okay whatsoever" isn't as certain as you think. Likewise, the great divide between hockey players of great reputation and ones of dark reputation is not as clear as you think.

Which brings me to my next point...