Rumor: Bo Horvat All Purpose Thread (Part 1)

[Warh1ppy]

Here's a question.

Jarmo has been GM since 2013 and only gotten past the first round once. This is one of the few times in club history the Blue Jackets have spent to the hilt.

How much pressure is Jarmo actually under to do something?

 

[Captain Controversy]

I assume the pick for Horvat would be the 2024 1st + prospect or good roster player.
Columbus isn't going anywhere this year without Zack Werenski.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Here's a question.

Jarmo has been GM since 2013 and only gotten past the first round once. This is one of the few times in club history the Blue Jackets have spent to the hilt.

How much pressure is Jarmo actually under to do something?

i want to say a lot but he been pretty bad for years and still has a job so who knows. he's a cautionary tail of why great scouts don't make great gm's.

 

[Youngguns1380]

Here's a question.

Jarmo has been GM since 2013 and only gotten past the first round once. This is one of the few times in club history the Blue Jackets have spent to the hilt.

How much pressure is Jarmo actually under to do something?

We have heard anecdotally (Doug M) on NHL morning skate speaking as though he had inside information, that the owner is upset spending to the hilt and last place.

 

[BCNate]

I'll hold firm that 3 mid-1st equivalents is too much value for Horvat. He's maybe worth a bit more than 2 mid 1sts.

Columbus can afford to do your offer but it ain't fair value.

I’d love this for the Canucks, but agree it isn’t fair.

I’d take out the two picks, and see what else needs to happen from there, but it won’t be a 1st.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Yes, but JG has proven he can play like that around the league while JT Miller has only shown he can do that in Vancouver. Come on man, try and keep up.

Miller went from a 40-50 point centre in New York to a ppg player in Vancouver and JG has been outscored by Miller over the last 4 seasons and in fact isn't even ppg in Columbus at all.

Sorry mate, come on now with this JG doing this across the league nonsense

 

[Vector]

We have heard anecdotally (Doug M) on NHL morning skate speaking as though he had inside information, that the owner is upset spending to the hilt and last place.

This has been something I’ve been wondering about and the only reason Horvat would make any sense whatsoever. Ownership approves big expenditure during last seasons UFA, doesn’t see the promised results, isn’t going to fire management but mandates them to fix it as fast as possible. Suddenly waiting for UFA period, other trade possibilities, and the kids to develop becomes very unappealing to management.

The value calculation becomes different. Is acquiring Horvat (w/ extension) worth more than the standard rental price that contenders would be willing to pay? Is it worth the, potentially, inflated price to jump ahead, integrate him now, and go into the next draft and free agent period with the #1C position filled and only needing to deal with the peripheries of the roster?

To the vast majority here, of course not. We also don’t have a very upset owner demanding we fix the roster as soon as possible.

 

[CBJx614]

Miller went from a 40-50 point centre in New York to a ppg player in Vancouver and JG has been outscored by Miller over the last 4 seasons and in fact isn't even ppg in Columbus at all.

Sorry mate, come on now with this JG doing this across the league nonsense

15 pts in 17 games in last place Columbus. He may not technically be a PPG, but come on it's not like he has 10 pts. He's on a new team that has no true bonafide centers and his other star linemate has missed time twice so far this season.

 

[Warh1ppy]

i want to say a lot but he been pretty bad for years and still has a job so who knows. he's a cautionary tail of why great scouts don't make great gm's.

We have heard anecdotally (Doug M) on NHL morning skate speaking as though he had inside information, that the owner is upset spending to the hilt and last place.

This has been something I’ve been wondering about and the only reason Horvat would make any sense whatsoever. Ownership approves big expenditure during last seasons UFA, doesn’t see the promised results, isn’t going to fire management but mandates them to fix it as fast as possible. Suddenly waiting for UFA period, other trade possibilities, and the kids to develop becomes very unappealing to management.

The value calculation becomes different. Is acquiring Horvat (w/ extension) worth more than the standard rental price that contenders would be willing to pay? Is it worth the, potentially, inflated price to jump ahead, integrate him now, and go into the next draft and free agent period with the #1C position filled and only needing to deal with the peripheries of the roster?

To the vast majority here, of course not. We also don’t have a very upset owner demanding we fix the roster as soon as possible.

Well, for me that's the question mark. 9 years as gm and a record that is only 4 or 5 spots (?) better than Vancouver over that timeline with one playoff win.

Never being a true cap team until now and seeing this result is genuinely shocking and I can't imagine he has a long leash left at all.

I'd also add that desperate GMs for desperate things like trading top 10 picks and expiring contracts for aging defensemen and undersized wingers (cough Vancouver) so one has to wonder if Jarmo is feeling that level of heat enough that he'd make a knee jerk reaction

15 pts in 17 games in last place Columbus. He may not technically be a PPG, but come on it's not like he has 10 pts. He's on a new team that has no true bonafide centers and his other star linemate has missed time twice so far this season.

So you'll move the goalposts for Jonny Hockey but ignore the same for Miller who's been a productive player on 3 different teams and has outscored him over the last 4 years.

Gotcha

 

[Viqsi]

Well, for me that's the question mark. 9 years as gm and a record that is only 4 or 5 spots (?) better than Vancouver over that timeline with one playoff win.

Never being a true cap team until now and seeing this result is genuinely shocking and I can't imagine he has a long leash left at all.

I'd also add that desperate GMs for desperate things like trading top 10 picks and expiring contracts for aging defensemen and undersized wingers (cough Vancouver) so one has to wonder if Jarmo is feeling that level of heat enough that he'd make a knee jerk reaction


So you'll move the goalposts for Jonny Hockey but ignore the same for Miller who's been a productive player on 3 different teams and has outscored him over the last 4 years.

Gotcha

At this point we'll say anything and everything we possibly can that might have even the smallest chance of finally getting all y'all to just shut the hell up about JT Miller vis a vis the Jackets already. Seriously, y'all, take the damn hint already. Even if by some impossible chance Kekalainen loses his mind and expresses interest, there is nobody left among Jackets fans on HF who is interested in having this conversation anymore.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Couple things here. Because people wanna say x, y and z will or won't happen.

Columbus and Vancouver have less than $270k total cap between them. Any trades made HAS to have cap coming back to Vancouver with zero retention on either team.

So Miller or Horvat aren't going anywhere without an equal amount of cap coming back. Forget picks/prospects right now. Horvat going nowhere without at least Nyquist coming back.

On to value. If CBJ fans don't think Horvat is worth at least one of their top prospects fine. But 1b, 2a centres aren't cheap or available often. Vancouver has zero prospects to speak of so yes quantity may work over quality, but again. Cap space. Can't trade 3 players on ELC to Vancouver without sending more cap back or away between teams because there's no space.

I wouldn't even think it's Horvat or Miller because there's obviously other options but again. Cap space.

Finally, Columbus is only 4 wins away from the playoffs. Or a multi game slide from their divisional rivals. Vancouver won 2 games and is somehow apparently back in the hunt. It's only November and on paper, injured or not Columbus is a better team than Vancouver so catching fire for any amount of time puts them in the hunt, or at least momentarily out of the top 5 in the draft.

All that being said, I find it much more likely Horvat or Miller go to somewhere overachieving like New Jersey or Buffalo anyway. Any trade between these teams makes sense on paper with Vancouver needing prospects period, but the cap implications just don't work at all this year.

At this point we'll say anything and everything we possibly can that might have even the smallest chance of finally getting all y'all to just shut the hell up about JT Miller vis a vis the Jackets already. Seriously, y'all, take the damn hint already. Even if by some impossible chance Kekalainen loses his mind and expresses interest, there is nobody left among Jackets fans on HF who is interested in having this conversation anymore.

Maybe they'll shut up about it if you stop telling them that no firsts no top prospects and no quality is coming back when there's an endless history of that happening in the league since forever.

I've stated clearly why I feel no Miller or Horvat trades work due to cap but suggesting no quality would come back in the event of one is just an opinion and not grounded in reality.

 

[bandwagonesque]

At this point we'll say anything and everything we possibly can that might have even the smallest chance of finally getting all y'all to just shut the hell up about JT Miller vis a vis the Jackets already. Seriously, y'all, take the damn hint already. Even if by some impossible chance Kekalainen loses his mind and expresses interest, there is nobody left among Jackets fans on HF who is interested in having this conversation anymore.

In my experience on these boards, being aggressive and condescending isn't very effective in getting a point across and redirecting a conversation. Just rationally explaining why you disagree can have surprisingly good results.

 

[Viqsi]

Couple things here. Because people wanna say x, y and z will or won't happen.

Columbus and Vancouver have less than $270k total cap between them. Any trades made HAS to have cap coming back to Vancouver with zero retention on either team.

So Miller or Horvat aren't going anywhere without an equal amount of cap coming back. Forget picks/prospects right now. Horvat going nowhere without at least Nyquist coming back.

This is wrong; we have guys who can go on LTIR this year and contracts coming off the books in subsequent years. And since all ofy our subsequent arguments end with "maybe not, but cap space", this pretty much tanks your entire evaluation.

Maybe they'll shut up about it if you stop telling them that no firsts no top prospects and no quality is coming back when there's an endless history of that happening in the league since forever.

If you actually read literally any post by any Blue Jackets fan in any of the threads about any of these deals, the answer is always "those assets are not going back, therefore if they are insisted upon no deal will be made." Not a single one of us - NOT ONE - has suggested that Vancouver will be forced to accept such a deal.

 

[Viqsi]

In my experience on these boards, being aggressive and condescending isn't very effective in getting a point across and redirecting a conversation. Just rationally explaining why you disagree can have surprisingly good results.

Calm and polite was tried for months. Nobody noticed or cared.

You're about to assert that it wasn't actually tried, and that's when I'll reiterate the "nobody noticed" part. You'll probably try to assert that anyways despite that last sentence, whereupon I'll point out this one, and then there'll be some flailing about wherein you continue multiple ad hominems to try to make the case that I'm a horrible horrible person before we get to move on to the next guy.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

According to Portzline, Vancouver showed interest in Roslovic in the summer.

 

[Warh1ppy]

According to Portzline, Vancouver showed interest in Roslovic in the summer.

Struggling, potentially overpaid under achieving player that makes little sense to Vancouver based on team needs?

Seems plausible given the Vancouver MO over the last decade

 

[quat]

Miller went from a 40-50 point centre in New York to a ppg player in Vancouver and JG has been outscored by Miller over the last 4 seasons and in fact isn't even ppg in Columbus at all.

Sorry mate, come on now with this JG doing this across the league nonsense

Sorry, I thought it was clear what I meant in the post. As a long (Loooooooonnnnnnng) suffering Canucks fan, I've descended into sarcasm and irony when posting.

 

[Peter Griffin]

You absolutely know what they say about opinions and why.

Let's leave it at that because you're entitled to yours and you're obviously not changing it so it's a moot point and I'd rather not waste the time going back and forth on it.


Struggling, potentially overpaid under achieving player that makes little sense to Vancouver based on team needs?

Seems plausible given the Vancouver MO over the last decade

Roslovic could make sense as the cap component in a potential Horvat deal, but not sure I’d value him too highly with his struggles this year and being signed thru next season at $4M. I’d almost sooner just accept Nyquist and his expiring contract, but there’s a chance Roslovic could be a serviceable player next season and a right shot center is something Vancouver covets.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Sorry, I thought it was clear what I meant in the post. As a long (Loooooooonnnnnnng) suffering Canucks fan, I've descended into sarcasm and irony when posting.

Only when posting?

Come to the dark side and do it everywhere. Endless pessimism and jaded world views are the new thing I hear.

Plus, we have mini muffins.

 

[quat]

At this point we'll say anything and everything we possibly can that might have even the smallest chance of finally getting all y'all to just shut the hell up about JT Miller vis a vis the Jackets already. Seriously, y'all, take the damn hint already. Even if by some impossible chance Kekalainen loses his mind and expresses interest, there is nobody left among Jackets fans on HF who is interested in having this conversation anymore.

You do of course realize that your, or anyone's opinions on these boards have next to zero effect on anything but our own states of mind?

Nothing has to be decided and just because a few posters agree on something, it doesn't prevent someone new from chiming in with their equally poor or awesome takes.

None of this is particularly annoying unless you take it seriously. aaaannnddd here I am lecturing on a chat board :-P

 

[Warh1ppy]

Calm and polite was tried for months. Nobody noticed or cared.

You're about to assert that it wasn't actually tried, and that's when I'll reiterate the "nobody noticed" part. You'll probably try to assert that anyways despite that last sentence, whereupon I'll point out this one, and then there'll be some flailing about wherein you continue multiple ad hominems to try to make the case that I'm a horrible horrible person before we get to move on to the next guy.

Ok. But Vancouver fans, we're not known for calm. If we're not over the top something's wrong

 

[quat]

Only when posting?

Come to the dark side and do it everywhere. Endless pessimism and jaded world views are the new thing I hear.

Plus, we have mini muffins.

Don't poke the bear my friend lol

 

[Warh1ppy]

Don't poke the bear my friend lol

But...muffins

 

[Viqsi]

You do of course realize that your, or anyone's opinions on these boards have next to zero effect on anything but our own states of mind?

Given that that has a very direct impact on what's discussed here, I find that reason enough to care. Between that and both of my teams having had to face literal existential crises that were very much empowered by general fan impressions and state of mind about them (consider how relocationists made their target selections), "it doesn't actually matter" doesn't really resonate with me as a compelling argument. It's a heck of a lot easier to ignore and/or dismiss comments motivated by "lol your team sucks and nobody cares or should care" when that's never had any chance of any impact whatsoever on whether or not your team legitimately gets to exist.

But this is kind of a tangent.

 

[BB88]

This is another reason the CBJ are looking at Bo. They list us at Tier 6 - Needs Improvement, which is the bottom.

Of course they could use Horvat but not at any price.

Johnson+ Bedard/Carlsson/Fantilli is a possibility next summer.
This isn’t the time for panic trades

Here's a question.

Jarmo has been GM since 2013 and only gotten past the first round once. This is one of the few times in club history the Blue Jackets have spent to the hilt.

How much pressure is Jarmo actually under to do something?

They started a rebuild last year so I doubt this season was playoffs or out.