Blues Trade Proposals Part 4

[bleedblue1223]

You absolutely can.

Halak managed to save more than 9 out of 10 shots last season behind the same team (as did Elliott). And if the team in front of them is the problem this year, they probably saw less shots last year which blows your shots against hypothesis out of the water.

Further, If Halak needs to see 30 shots a game to play decently, he isn't the best fit for the system

Even Hitch said this isn't the same team as last season. This team is worried about stats and doesn't play as a 5 man unit, that's straight from Hitch, not me. The difference in quality of shots from last season to this season is monumental.

Everyone is at fault; skaters, goalies, and coaches. Hitch is Army's guy and we've already changed coaches multiple times so that isn't happening, we won't be able to find or afford an upgrade over Halak so that isn't going to happen, the only plausible move is a trade with the skaters.

We have gone 5-8-2 since starting the season 6-1-0. 12 points out of 15 games is beyond unacceptable for this team. Every section of this team is equally at fault, simple as that.

Army failed to fill the holes.

Hitch is failing to get the most out of the players.

The players are failing massively on the ice.

No point in arguing who has been worse. It's like arguing who's the tallest midget or who is the smartest kid in remedial math class.

 

[ExJbeck]

You absolutely can.

Halak managed to save more than 9 out of 10 shots last season behind the same team (as did Elliott). And if the team in front of them is the problem this year, they probably saw less shots last year which blows your shots against hypothesis out of the water.

Further, If Halak needs to see 30 shots a game to play decently, he isn't the best fit for the system

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Your theory's generally have 0 perspective. This little theory of yours seem to leave out something critical which is the the amount quality scoring chances we give up this year that we didn't last year. Almost any NHL goalie can have Top 5 stats playing behind the Blues, if the Blues are playing as a team. Hence why Ellliott and Halak had amazing numbers last season. Now the Blues aren't playing good as a team, or limiting the number of quality shot as last season and the goalie are being left to make saves (some that they should make and some that they have no chance at saving). The entire team is to blame, some more than others, but to blame any few players in particular is ignorant. Hell to not blame a few players would be ignorant as well.

 

[Hooliganx3]

Our team is really tricky to evaluate. Everyone on it is at fault. I'm all for giving Allen the starting job for a few weeks and see what happens. At this point I am not worried about the playoffs I am more worried about figuring out what really needs to be done with this team. If we miss the playoffs this season to figure out what moves need to be made to fix it long term i'm all for it.

 

[Blue Goose]

I like Schlemko, but I wouldn't give up a second. I am fully on board that we need a complimentary player to partner Pietrangelo, rather than another high end guy. At the same time, we can't give up decent assets for pretty average players and hope they mesh well.

Maybe D'Agostini & 5th for Schlemko at the deadline? Worst case scenario is that he is a decent depth player going forward.

I've been a fan of Schlemko for a while - he even got some time on the #1 PP unit in PHX before his injury. But I'm not sure he's the guy we need. Besides, he just signed a two-year extension (http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=657395), and I can't imagine they would turn around and trade him now.

There's been SO much talk on these boards about our lack of veteran leadership, and I think this is an opportunity to bring someone in with experience to mentor our young D corps and serve as a great teacher/partner for Petro. If we wanted to send Dags to PHX, I'd rather we consider a package for Klesla ($2.975M for one more year) in return.

However, I still stand by my "D'Agostini for Henrik Tallinder" trade proposal - it helps both teams address an area of need by dealing from a position of strength.

When you consider how well we did last year with Huskins/Carlo at LD, I think it would be a bad idea to sink a bunch of $$ and/or trade core players to get a stud #1 LD (Giordano, Yandle), when you can easily find a solid veteran via UFA or a trade deadline deal for picks/Dags.

Look at some of the LD's of the recent Cup finalists:
2012: LA: Scuderi - Mitchell - Martinez. NJ: Volchenkov - Salvador - Greene (Tallinder was hurt until the Final, where he played well).
2011: BOS Chara - Seidenberg - Ference. VAN: Edler - Ehrhoff - Hamhuis.

If a team can win a Cup with Ference, Seidenberg, Scuderi or Mitchell on their LD, I'm sure we could do it with Jackman, Cole and a Tallinder/Klesla-type veteran - ESPECIALLY considering how awesome we are on the RD.

 

[PocketNines]

NYR claims Hamrlík. It would suggest that we didn't put in a claim, but I'm not exactly sure from what point the calculate the standings.

It's what the records were when the guy goes on waivers. The Rangers won last night and put their claim in when they were 10-8-2. Before last night the Blues were 11-8-2 so we can't know from the Rangers' claim whether the Blues also put in a claim, but for the record I hope they didn't.

 

[Hooliganx3]

Can we please not post threads on the main board. Pretty much all of the offers have been horrible. I just read Berglund and Elliott for Brewer........That is the type of responses you will get on the main trade forum.

 

[Mike Liut]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Your theory's generally have 0 perspective. This little theory of yours seem to leave out something critical which is the the amount quality scoring chances we give up this year that we didn't last year. Almost any NHL goalie can have Top 5 stats playing behind the Blues, if the Blues are playing as a team. Hence why Ellliott and Halak had amazing numbers last season. Now the Blues aren't playing good as a team, or limiting the number of quality shot as last season and the goalie are being left to make saves (some that they should make and some that they have no chance at saving). The entire team is to blame, some more than others, but to blame any few players in particular is ignorant. Hell to not blame a few players would be ignorant as well.

Exactly.

 

[Duffman955]

What would the price of Ian Cole be?

 

[SirPaste]

What would the price of Ian Cole be?

Upgrade on LD

 

[PerryTurnbullfan]

Can we please not post threads on the main board. Pretty much all of the offers have been horrible. I just read Berglund and Elliott for Brewer........That is the type of responses you will get on the main trade forum.

Dear Lord no... I will burn all of my Blues jerseys, if we get that trash bag here again. Terrible, terrible player until like his last year here. Brewer was painful to watch.

 

[GrandPapillon*]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Your theory's generally have 0 perspective. This little theory of yours seem to leave out something critical which is the the amount quality scoring chances we give up this year that we didn't last year. Almost any NHL goalie can have Top 5 stats playing behind the Blues, if the Blues are playing as a team. Hence why Ellliott and Halak had amazing numbers last season. Now the Blues aren't playing good as a team, or limiting the number of quality shot as last season and the goalie are being left to make saves (some that they should make and some that they have no chance at saving). The entire team is to blame, some more than others, but to blame any few players in particular is ignorant. Hell to not blame a few players would be ignorant as well.

Other than being condescending and masquerading opinions as facts in the most annoying way possible, this post contributes nothing.

All this is, basically, is the chicken or egg debate which you felt the need to fire personal shots in. My argument is when the goaltending goes south, as it has all year, the team play in front of them suffers. A soft goal goes in, and the team loses focus. The fact that the Blues goalies can't even save 9 out of 10 shots right now is a problem and blaming the entire team for Halak and Elliott performing much below what they showed capable last season seems wrong to me. Granted, the team is to blame for being so rattled by what they can't control (goalie malfunctions). Look up and down the rest of the roster, whose performance has fallen harder than the two goalies? Everyone wants to trade Perron or Stewart. Stewart has upped his game. Perron is the same guy with the same production. Allen wasn't recalled for no reason. The Blues problems begin squarely on the shoulders on those in net.

 

[ExJbeck]

Other than being condescending and masquerading opinions as facts in the most annoying way possible, this post contributes nothing.

All this is, basically, is the chicken or egg debate which you felt the need to fire personal shots in. My argument is when the goaltending goes south, as it has all year, the team play in front of them suffers. A soft goal goes in, and the team loses focus. The fact that the Blues goalies can't even save 9 out of 10 shots right now is a problem and blaming the entire team for Halak and Elliott performing much below what they showed capable last season seems wrong to me. Granted, the team is to blame for being so rattled by what they can't control (goalie malfunctions). Look up and down the rest of the roster, whose performance has fallen harder than the two goalies? Everyone wants to trade Perron or Stewart. Stewart has upped his game. Perron is the same guy with the same production. Allen wasn't recalled for no reason. The Blues problems begin squarely on the shoulders on those in net.

So if your point is that the problems are starting from the net out thats fine, I'm not arguing that. I was saying that the statistics you are using to support your argument lacked perspective. We simply cannot blame the goalie for not being able to make 10/10 saves or assume that every time a goal goes in the team gets rattled. Whether or not you think it is true, it is impossible for Halak or Elliott to force a different player into giving the puck away. It is also pretty hard for the goalie to clear the crease for himself which im sure you know could cause some problems.

 

[PocketNines]

Granted it's a small sample size, but Perron and Stewart are both producing at a 30-30 clip over a full season which is EASILY first line forward production (last year would've ranked about #59 for forward production, divided by 30 teams ...). Neither of their games are perfect, but when the goaltending improves and when the team stops having emotional letdowns shift-to-shift, they're not going to seem as expendable. (Tarasenko was essentially on a 29-29 pace by the way.)

 

[GrandPapillon*]

So if your point is that the problems are starting from the net out thats fine, I'm not arguing that. I was saying that the statistics you are using to support your argument lacked perspective. We simply cannot blame the goalie for not being able to make 10/10 saves or assume that every time a goal goes in the team gets rattled. Whether or not you think it is true, it is impossible for Halak or Elliott to force a different player into giving the puck away. It is also pretty hard for the goalie to clear the crease for himself which im sure you know could cause some problems.

Don't want 10 out of 10, but 14 out of 15 would be nice. My problem isn't with the goalies letting in the high quality scoring chances. That happens. It's the "squeakers". The bad goals that seemingly deflate the team. Not every goal they are letting in are good chances. If they saved the routine ones, they would be saving 9 out of 10 probably. Again, I think that the goalies are the starting point for what is going on. The Blues should be mentally tough enough to overcome bad goals without falling to pieces, but at the same time, I understand if they do have feelings of "here we go again" whenever a shot from the boards or a bad angle squeaks past.

Also, yes. The Blues crease-clearing is dreadful. If one of our bigger forwards doesn't come all the way back and do it, no one but JAckman this year seems capable of doing so.


As for PocketNines post. Exactly. And that 30-30 pace is close to what Perron did last season when he came back. Until the Blues get more players that can produce like that, especially from Left Wing, can we please stop acting like he is expendable.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The idea of a shakeup trade isn't to drastically change production, it's to get the players to start playing as a unit. We have seen plenty of bad teams put up great stats. The offensive production is good enough, we just can't have everyone having an off night at the same time, which can happen when you rely on depth scoring and don't have 1 line you can rely on night in and night out.

What we need is a top 4 LHD and to start playing as a tight 4 man unit. One single trade can get that done IMO. Maybe we don't have to trade a core player.

What's easier to accomplish, getting a new #1 goalie or getting the team to start playing like a 5 man unit again? This is a simple and easy question.

Does trading Cole and Rattie for Gio send a strong enough message to the team. It might because it tells the team that management still believes that can win, and win now. Or do we follow LA's route how they traded Johnson for Carter? We have the offensive depth when healthy to move a forward for a defender, and this would be the best option money wise.

 

[Alklha]

How about this over the next few weeks...

Sign Lehterä (2 years @ $2.25m)
Trade Steen, D'Agostini & (2013 2nd OR 2014 1st) or Perron & D'Agostini to COL for Paul Stastny.
Trade Berglund, McRae & 2013 2nd to TOR for Kulemin & Gunnarsson.

Perron/Steen - Stastny - Stewart
Schwartz - Backes - Oshie
Kulemin - Lehterä - Tarasenko
Cracknell - Sobotka - Reaves

Gunnarsson - Pietrangelo
Jax/Cole - Shattenkirk
Jax/Cole - Polák

Halák
Allen

If we lose Steen, then we are downgrading Steen to Kulemin, upgrading Berglund to Statsny and picking up an unspectacular but solid LHD and solidifying our 3 centres.Losing Perron would hurt more, but gaining a more playmaking C should help our other wingers numbers more.

Not ideal to add Stastny's salary next season, but not impossible all things considered.

I'm probably way off in value (at least trying to address COL's need on wing & TOR's need at C), but I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[rumrokh]

How about this over the next few weeks...

Sign Lehterä (2 years @ $2.25m)
Trade Steen, D'Agostini & (2013 2nd OR 2014 1st) or Perron & D'Agostini to COL for Paul Stastny.
Trade Berglund, McRae & 2013 2nd to TOR for Kulemin & Gunnarsson.

Perron/Steen - Stastny - Stewart
Schwartz - Backes - Oshie
Kulemin - Lehterä - Tarasenko
Cracknell - Sobotka - Reaves

Gunnarsson - Pietrangelo
Jax/Cole - Shattenkirk
Jax/Cole - Polák

Halák
Allen

If we lose Steen, then we are downgrading Steen to Kulemin, upgrading Berglund to Statsny and picking up an unspectacular but solid LHD and solidifying our 3 centres.Losing Perron would hurt more, but gaining a more playmaking C should help our other wingers numbers more.

Not ideal to add Stastny's salary next season, but not impossible all things considered.

I'm probably way off in value (at least trying to address COL's need on wing & TOR's need at C), but I thought I'd throw it out there.

The last time Stastny was very good was three years ago. Even if we completely forget about his insane salary, he's not worth more than Perron or Steen in a straight up hockey trade. And because both of those players are signed for way less and, in Perron's case, way longer, I just don't see the Blues adding to one of those guys to get him.

And Berglund is just flat-out a better hockey player than Kulemin is. Gunnarsson is a nice addition, but not at the expense of the downgrade at forward.

If the Blues trade Perron with Steen and Tarasenko out long-term, they actually get worse at forward this season. For acquiring two players who have just one more season before becoming unrestricted (Stastny and Kulemin), that's putting every single egg in next year's basket (while paying more this year, too). It's just terrible asset management.

Plus, this plan relies way too heavily on Lehtera being worth a damn in the NHL. I understand wanting any given player, but this is just making changes for the sake of making changes. Plus, the Leafs are playing well. Why would they want to make such a big shakeup now that they're playoff-bound?

 

[PerryTurnbullfan]

The last time Stastny was very good was three years ago. Even if we completely forget about his insane salary, he's not worth more than Perron or Steen in a straight up hockey trade. And because both of those players are signed for way less and, in Perron's case, way longer, I just don't see the Blues adding to one of those guys to get him.

And Berglund is just flat-out a better hockey player than Kulemin is. Gunnarsson is a nice addition, but not at the expense of the downgrade at forward.

If the Blues trade Perron with Steen and Tarasenko out long-term, they actually get worse at forward this season. For acquiring two players who have just one more season before becoming unrestricted (Stastny and Kulemin), that's putting every single egg in next year's basket (while paying more this year, too). It's just terrible asset management.

Plus, this plan relies way too heavily on Lehtera being worth a damn in the NHL. I understand wanting any given player, but this is just making changes for the sake of making changes. Plus, the Leafs are playing well. Why would they want to make such a big shakeup now that they're playoff-bound?

I agree with this.

 

[Halak Ness Monster]

Can we please not post threads on the main board. Pretty much all of the offers have been horrible. I just read Berglund and Elliott for Brewer........That is the type of responses you will get on the main trade forum.

Hey I proposed Perron, Cole, and a 2014 1st for McDonagh and Ranger fans said that was fair value but that he wasn't available.

I'd still make that trade. McDonagh would fill a huge hole. Unfortunately he isn't going anywhere. Especially now that Staal is out. I just wanted to see what it would take.

I still can't believe Montreal traded McDonagh and it was for Scott Gomez. That will go down as one of the worst trades of all time.

 

[Alklha]

The last time Stastny was very good was three years ago. Even if we completely forget about his insane salary, he's not worth more than Perron or Steen in a straight up hockey trade. And because both of those players are signed for way less and, in Perron's case, way longer, I just don't see the Blues adding to one of those guys to get him.

And Berglund is just flat-out a better hockey player than Kulemin is. Gunnarsson is a nice addition, but not at the expense of the downgrade at forward.

If the Blues trade Perron with Steen and Tarasenko out long-term, they actually get worse at forward this season. For acquiring two players who have just one more season before becoming unrestricted (Stastny and Kulemin), that's putting every single egg in next year's basket (while paying more this year, too). It's just terrible asset management.

Plus, this plan relies way too heavily on Lehtera being worth a damn in the NHL. I understand wanting any given player, but this is just making changes for the sake of making changes. Plus, the Leafs are playing well. Why would they want to make such a big shakeup now that they're playoff-bound?

Fair enough, I'd still disagree though. Also, the whole basis was assuming that Tarasenko and Steen would be back in the next couple of weeks.

Stastny is a better player than either Perron or Steen; I'd much rather give up Steen in this deal. His contract is an issue, but only lasts 1 more year and we could manage it fine with tweaks to our RFA deals. Any move for him would rely on him being willing to take a significant salary reduction on his next contract. I think that actually playing with some talented wingers would help his numbers dramatically as well, as you say his numbers fell away when Stewart broke his hand/was traded and since then he's not had much to work with.

When it comes to Berglund, I think we really have to ask just how good a fit is he going to be here. I like him, think he has plenty of talent and puts in a shift... but he is never going to be a playmaker. If we are going to have a large group of talented young scoring wingers, is his game/numbers ever going to see any real improvement here? I mean, he just went 16 games without an assist. Is that who we want centring Chris Stewart? This might not be the right deal to move him in, and if McDonald gets healthy we could wait until draft time to look to trade him, and we'd know what we have with Lehterä at that point too.

Not putting anything on Lehterä either. If he doesn't work then put Sobotka (or Steen if Perron is moved) in as 3C and Nichol as 4C and we can trade Lehterä in the summer. The lack of talent at C means a guy with his resume will have at least a modest value.

 

[Blue Goose]

I'll never understand the obsession that some STL fans have with Kulemin. I watch a lot of TOR games - I just don't see why we should be interested in him (is it because you want to give Tank a Russian teammate?).

I like the idea of trading for Stastny, and using Berglund as the centerpiece of a deal (whether dealing him to COL, or using a 3rd team to facilitate). Make the D'Agostini for Tallinder deal, and your Top 6 would look something like this:

Perron - Stastny - Stewart
Schwartz - Backes - Oshie

In a perfect world, our "3rd line" of AMac-Steen-Tank comes back soon, and we can preserve our dynamic 4th line of Sobotka-Nichol-Reaves.

If Andy/Tank stay out, you can go with the following bottom 6:

Steen - Sobotka - Cracknell
Porter - Nichol - Reaves

(Porter has always struck me a solid 4th line "energy" guy - I don't know why Hitch insists on using him on the 3rd line, especially since Cracknell has looked good)

Oh, and the D pairings:

Tallinder - Petro
Jax - Shatty
Russell/Cole - Polak

 

[Captain Creampuff]

(Porter has always struck me a solid 4th line "energy" guy - I don't know why Hitch insists on using him on the 3rd line, especially since Cracknell has looked good)

I think Porter has a better skillset than Cracknell does overall. Crackenll however has a big body and looks good next to Reaves out on the 4th line. But both players could be switched and you really wouldn't see that much of a difference IMO.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I think Jackman will stay with Pietrangelo, so anyone will get will play with Shattenkirk, unless it is a clear top pairing player.

I think we could do a Perron-Stastny deal and a Berglund-Giordano deal. Stastny's playmaking abilities would make up for Perron's.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

I think Jackman will stay with Pietrangelo, so anyone will get will play with Shattenkirk, unless it is a clear top pairing player.

I think we could do a Perron-Stastny deal and a Berglund-Giordano deal. Stastny's playmaking abilities would make up for Perron's.

Leaves us with Schwartz, McDonald, and Dagostini on our left wing in our top 6 for just Stastny? No thanks.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Leaves us with Schwartz, McDonald, and Dagostini on our left wing in our top 6 for just Stastny? No thanks.

You listed 3 LWers, so that would be top 9, and we'd have Giordano too.

McDonald-Stastny-Stewart
Schwartz-Backes-Oshie
Sobotka/D'Agostini-Steen-Tarasenko
Sobotka/Porter-Nichol-Reaves

Giordano-Pietrangelo
Jackman-Shattenkirk
Cole-Polak

That is a top lineup.