Blues Trade Proposals 2023-2024

[DatDude44]

The forwards weren't always at fault. Even when we had a good forecheck with backpressure, we still had our D back off the blue line and allow entry. Our forwards and our D need to be better, but I think our scheme was at fault as well.



Isn't that generally done by better skaters? All the guys you named are known for skating, except maybe Mikkola and he is fast for his size. Krug, Scandella coming off of hip surgery, and even Faulk are only average at best. Parayko could maybe learn skating but the rest?. If you misjudge the angle and speed on sufing, you essentially let the other player around you. Faster players can catch up, Krug is out of the play.

Not really, they’re all more than capable of doing it.

If you undercut your angle, just flip your hips keep your stick inside and u just play it backwards like u normally would.

It certainly helps if you’re a + skater though for sure.

If you're in the NHL, even including bortz You just need to rep it out in practice and figure out your comfort zone etc.. with it, it's just a different technique, some guys due to their plus skating ability can take deeper angles and get into it more often like the guys i mentioned before, but honestly, if you play in the NHL, your a good enough skater to utilize this technique in some degree. Though you might be a bit more conservative with it if your marco scandella trying to angle out kirill kaprizov etc..

 

[Stealth JD]

To Carolina: Buchnevich
To STL: Nikishin

Similar to Shanny for Pronger, in that a proven winger was traded for an unproven (high-end) defenseman.

Carolina needs affordable, high-end scoring. Blues need a blue-chip LD. Who says no? Could adds on either side make this the foundation of a deal?

 

[ezcreepin]

To Carolina: Buchnevich
To STL: Nikishin

Similar to Shanny for Pronger, in that a proven winger was traded for an unproven (high-end) defenseman.

Carolina needs affordable, high-end scoring. Blues need a blue-chip LD. Who says no? Could adds on either side make this the foundation of a deal?

I'm not super familiar with Nikishin or his game, but I would imagine a lot of people on the forum would not be super enticed by this deal just based on the fact that you're trading for an unproven commodity but sending one of the best two-way wingers in the game. If the Blues have a chance to re-sign Buch, then I think he is likely untouchable, but if you could get a good 1st pairing guy, then MAYBE the trade would be good enough for a "hockey trade".

 

[Majorityof1]

To Carolina: Buchnevich
To STL: Nikishin

Similar to Shanny for Pronger, in that a proven winger was traded for an unproven (high-end) defenseman.

Carolina needs affordable, high-end scoring. Blues need a blue-chip LD. Who says no? Could adds on either side make this the foundation of a deal?

Being in the KHL, I haven't watched a ton of Nikishin. From what I have seen, he has been good and his stats look good as well. I'm not sold on his NHL potential but that might be ignorance on my part. He'd have to be a top 4 with top pair potential for me to like it.

My other concern is that he just signed a 3 year KHL contract last year. So he won't start for a couple years and we wouldn't have as much team control as if he came over earlier.

If we don't think we can resign Buch, it may be worth the gamble. But with what I know now, I'd lean no.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

To Carolina: Buchnevich
To STL: Nikishin

Similar to Shanny for Pronger, in that a proven winger was traded for an unproven (high-end) defenseman.

Carolina needs affordable, high-end scoring. Blues need a blue-chip LD. Who says no? Could adds on either side make this the foundation of a deal?

Nope.

Giving up a 1st line PPG winger with astounding defensive skill for a good prospect that the Blues can't even control for two more years is not a good use of resources.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

To Carolina: Buchnevich
To STL: Nikishin

Similar to Shanny for Pronger, in that a proven winger was traded for an unproven (high-end) defenseman.

Carolina needs affordable, high-end scoring. Blues need a blue-chip LD. Who says no? Could adds on either side make this the foundation of a deal?

I would need more than just a prospect in Russia to deal buchy. I know he had great year but I feel like khl numbers were inflated this year since almost all the foreign players left due to war. So if we are dealing them buchy would need another 1st and probably more still to make it make sense for us.

 

[Stealth JD]

My thoughts: Blues have (potential) top-6 wingers out the ass: Kyrou, Saad, Schenn, Vrana, Neighbors, Bolduc, Stenberg, Dvorsky, Hayes(?), Blais (?), Kapanen(?). You really only need 4 of those guys. Sure a couple of them are a couple of years away, but that's an easier gap to bridge than say, top-4 LD where you're forced to play Scandella, Krug or Rosen in a full-time role (shared amongst them). Blues aren't ever getting a Dahlin, Heiskanen, L. Hughes, etc. type that they need. If you've got to overpay for one...overpay in winger-assets.

Is Army going to give Buchnevich $8M+ and roll with Kyrou and Thomas (and the bloatedd defensive) contracts? Of the three (Thomas, Kyrou & Buchnevich), I value Buchnevich the most...but (1) is Buchy going to take a team-friendly deal to re-sign, (2) is he going to be worth that contract in his 30's, (3) doesn't trading him fit best for the time-line of the "re-tool"?

I think 100% of us would trade Kyrou over Buchnevich, if it came down to one or the other. Debrincat showed how much value a one-dimensional scoring winger really has, and I don't think GMDA can get value from trading Kyrou and his contract. But, I also don't think the Blues can afford to extend Buchy, w/o removing Kyrou...and the kids coming make it easy (-ier) to move on from a top-line winger. So, in my mind, the question becomes..."how do you get value for Kyrou - (HA!) otherwise, how much value can you get for Buchy?".

 

[Xerloris]

My thoughts: Blues have (potential) top-6 wingers out the ass: Kyrou, Saad, Schenn, Vrana, Neighbors, Bolduc, Stenberg, Dvorsky, Hayes(?), Blais (?), Kapanen(?). You really only need 4 of those guys. Sure a couple of them are a couple of years away, but that's an easier gap to bridge than say, top-4 LD where you're forced to play Scandella, Krug or Rosen in a full-time role (shared amongst them). Blues aren't ever getting a Dahlin, Heiskanen, L. Hughes, etc. type that they need. If you've got to overpay for one...overpay in winger-assets.

Is Army going to give Buchnevich $8M+ and roll with Kyrou and Thomas (and the bloatedd defensive) contracts? Of the three (Thomas, Kyrou & Buchnevich), I value Buchnevich the most...but (1) is Buchy going to take a team-friendly deal to re-sign, (2) is he going to be worth that contract in his 30's, (3) doesn't trading him fit best for the time-line of the "re-tool"?

I think 100% of us would trade Kyrou over Buchnevich, if it came down to one or the other. Debrincat showed how much value a one-dimensional scoring winger really has, and I don't think GMDA can get value from trading Kyrou and his contract. But, I also don't think the Blues can afford to extend Buchy, w/o removing Kyrou...and the kids coming make it easy (-ier) to move on from a top-line winger. So, in my mind, the question becomes..."how do you get value for Kyrou - (HA!) otherwise, how much value can you get for Buchy?".

If we're gonna move Buch I would imagine we could get someone more proven than a prospect.

 

[Blanick]

My thoughts: Blues have (potential) top-6 wingers out the ass: Kyrou, Saad, Schenn, Vrana, Neighbors, Bolduc, Stenberg, Dvorsky, Hayes(?), Blais (?), Kapanen(?). You really only need 4 of those guys. Sure a couple of them are a couple of years away, but that's an easier gap to bridge than say, top-4 LD where you're forced to play Scandella, Krug or Rosen in a full-time role (shared amongst them). Blues aren't ever getting a Dahlin, Heiskanen, L. Hughes, etc. type that they need. If you've got to overpay for one...overpay in winger-assets.

Is Army going to give Buchnevich $8M+ and roll with Kyrou and Thomas (and the bloatedd defensive) contracts? Of the three (Thomas, Kyrou & Buchnevich), I value Buchnevich the most...but (1) is Buchy going to take a team-friendly deal to re-sign, (2) is he going to be worth that contract in his 30's, (3) doesn't trading him fit best for the time-line of the "re-tool"?

I think 100% of us would trade Kyrou over Buchnevich, if it came down to one or the other. Debrincat showed how much value a one-dimensional scoring winger really has, and I don't think GMDA can get value from trading Kyrou and his contract. But, I also don't think the Blues can afford to extend Buchy, w/o removing Kyrou...and the kids coming make it easy (-ier) to move on from a top-line winger. So, in my mind, the question becomes..."how do you get value for Kyrou - (HA!) otherwise, how much value can you get for Buchy?".

Depending on how the first few months of this upcoming season goes I would entertain the idea of trading Buchnevich. However, if we are trading Buchy then the re-tool is dead and we are entering rebuild territory. If that's the case I am targeting a much nicer piece than Nikishin. Of all of our pieces Buchy is likely to bring the greatest return and maybe we could package him with other players and grab a young RHD prospect with top pairing upside because both Faulk and Parayko will be on the downside by the time we have enough prospects graduating to be competitive again. We have several LHD prospects with varying potential but have near zero on the right side.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

My thoughts: Blues have (potential) top-6 wingers out the ass: Kyrou, Saad, Schenn, Vrana, Neighbors, Bolduc, Stenberg, Dvorsky, Hayes(?), Blais (?), Kapanen(?). You really only need 4 of those guys. Sure a couple of them are a couple of years away, but that's an easier gap to bridge than say, top-4 LD where you're forced to play Scandella, Krug or Rosen in a full-time role (shared amongst them). Blues aren't ever getting a Dahlin, Heiskanen, L. Hughes, etc. type that they need. If you've got to overpay for one...overpay in winger-assets.

Is Army going to give Buchnevich $8M+ and roll with Kyrou and Thomas (and the bloatedd defensive) contracts? Of the three (Thomas, Kyrou & Buchnevich), I value Buchnevich the most...but (1) is Buchy going to take a team-friendly deal to re-sign, (2) is he going to be worth that contract in his 30's, (3) doesn't trading him fit best for the time-line of the "re-tool"?

I think 100% of us would trade Kyrou over Buchnevich, if it came down to one or the other. Debrincat showed how much value a one-dimensional scoring winger really has, and I don't think GMDA can get value from trading Kyrou and his contract. But, I also don't think the Blues can afford to extend Buchy, w/o removing Kyrou...and the kids coming make it easy (-ier) to move on from a top-line winger. So, in my mind, the question becomes..."how do you get value for Kyrou - (HA!) otherwise, how much value can you get for Buchy?".

I think you are on right path, but value still needs to be there. And I don’t think straight up for nuke is good value.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

My thoughts: Blues have (potential) top-6 wingers out the ass: Kyrou, Saad, Schenn, Vrana, Neighbors, Bolduc, Stenberg, Dvorsky, Hayes(?), Blais (?), Kapanen(?). You really only need 4 of those guys. Sure a couple of them are a couple of years away, but that's an easier gap to bridge than say, top-4 LD where you're forced to play Scandella, Krug or Rosen in a full-time role (shared amongst them). Blues aren't ever getting a Dahlin, Heiskanen, L. Hughes, etc. type that they need. If you've got to overpay for one...overpay in winger-assets.

Is Army going to give Buchnevich $8M+ and roll with Kyrou and Thomas (and the bloatedd defensive) contracts? Of the three (Thomas, Kyrou & Buchnevich), I value Buchnevich the most...but (1) is Buchy going to take a team-friendly deal to re-sign, (2) is he going to be worth that contract in his 30's, (3) doesn't trading him fit best for the time-line of the "re-tool"?

I think 100% of us would trade Kyrou over Buchnevich, if it came down to one or the other. Debrincat showed how much value a one-dimensional scoring winger really has, and I don't think GMDA can get value from trading Kyrou and his contract. But, I also don't think the Blues can afford to extend Buchy, w/o removing Kyrou...and the kids coming make it easy (-ier) to move on from a top-line winger. So, in my mind, the question becomes..."how do you get value for Kyrou - (HA!) otherwise, how much value can you get for Buchy?".

My mind is all over the place when reading this as I don't know what your end game out of this is. I don't know if you are fully entrenching yourself in the "Rebuild now because a re-tool is a waste of time" camp or if you're in the "Shuffle the deck to fight later" camp. Trading Buch ends all ideas of a re-tool. Doubly so if the target is a for a prospect the Blues can't control for two more years. But the plan you laid out, it strikes me as a plan to open the books and roster for others to step up to fill the gaps.

If the goal is to rebuild, then choose a more controlled target than Nikishin or add more to the deal. If the goal is to re-tool, then choose a different player to remove than Buchnevich. I don't like the idea of trading players BECAUSE they have value.

Side note, the "Kyrou has no value" thing is hitting "stupid" levels at this point.

 

[Majorityof1]

If the goal is to rebuild, then choose a better target than Nikishin or add more to the deal. If the goal is to re-tool, then choose a different player to remove than Buchnevich. I don't like the idea of trading players BECAUSE they have value.

Side note, the "Kyrou has no value thing is hitting "stupid" levels at this point.

Who is the other player? Like I said I have not watched much Nikishin but the stats and what I've seen were impressive. 4th in KHL in TOI, +19 for 20th best in khl, 9th in points as a defenseman. Youbthink with that ice time, he got tougher minutes. He's big, skates well, transitions the puck, isn't afraid to shoot and emerged as a good transition D last year. He may be risky but that's only due to my lack of watching KHL.

There is not a ton of 21 year old D with top pair potential available. Trading a guy who might not even want to re-sign in a few years wouldn't be an overpay if he lives up to his stats from last year.

For anyone saying they want better than Nikishin, how much have you watched and what are the holes in his game? Not sarcasm, asking in earnest.

I totally agree with you on the last part about Kyrou though

 

[Bluesnatic27]

Who is the other player? Like I said I have not watched much Nikishin but the stats and what I've seen were impressive. 4th in KHL in TOI, +19 for 20th best in khl, 9th in points as a defenseman. Youbthink with that ice time, he got tougher minutes. He's big, skates well, transitions the puck, isn't afraid to shoot and emerged as a good transition D last year. He may be risky but that's only due to my lack of watching KHL.

There is not a ton of 21 year old D with top pair potential available. Trading a guy who might not even want to re-sign in a few years wouldn't be an overpay if he lives up to his stats from last year.

For anyone saying they want better than Nikishin, how much have you watched and what are the holes in his game? Not sarcasm, asking in earnest.

I totally agree with you on the last part about Kyrou though

Nikishin is a damn good prospect and I'm not implying he's bad. But to not control the prospect in question at the cost of Buchnevich isn't a sound investment. It's the same reason Michkov fell in the draft. Not having control on the prospect, no matter the talent, means that the Blues could be left with nothing. Drafting a player in the same situation as Nikishin makes more sense as the chances of any prospect making the NHL is already low. But trading for Nikishin by using the most valuable trade chip the Blues have, and a damn good chip at that, doesn't adjust for the risk factor. Either the trade would need to include more pieces or the primary target would have to change.

I understand the confusion as the term "better" implies I'm looking for a higher caliber defenseman. Nikishin is in that Hughes/Jiricek/Nemec category currently. Finding a better prospect then that would be difficult. But finding a similar prospect that doesn't have near the risk associated with the acquisition wouldn't be difficult if the price was Buchnevich.

 

[LGB]

I think if we want high quality prospect for Buch we probably need to move him this year so a team gets two playoff runs with him. I don't know enough about Nikishin and the contract is a complication, but I like the idea.

 

[Mike Liut]

If we are trading Buch, I’d rather target players around Deans age. We definitely don’t need more forwards either. Buch + for a really good LD would be nice, somebody better than every LD we currently have.

 

[Stealth JD]

From Wheeler's top-50 prospects write-up, for those unfamiliar:

36. Alexander Nikishin, LHD, 21 (Carolina Hurricanes — No. 69, 2020)​

One of the most impressive young players outside the NHL at his position last year, Nikishin had a season for the ages in the KHL, breaking the league’s U22 scoring record with 55 points in 65 games (four better than Kirill Kaprizov’s 51, eight better than Vladimir Tarasenko’s 47, and 11 past Evgeny Kuznetsov’s 44). In fact, his 55 points led the league’s defencemen, regardless of age, and his 44 assists led the league, regardless of position, all while playing huge minutes on the best regular-season team in the league (before losing in the conference final).

Nikishin’s a physically advanced (6-foot-4, 216-pound) defender whose strength is evident in his blistering point shot, his ability to win board battles and his net-front boxouts. I like the way he reads the play, closes off the wall and gets into passing lanes. He’s strong defensively at five-on-five and on the penalty kill. He has taken huge steps in the last two seasons to play the aggressive, trigger-happy style that made him a productive defenceman in junior. He has gone from moving the puck fine to moving it comfortably and even confidently. He manages the point effectively, he’s a decent skater and he’s a lefty. I’ve believed in his offensive game since his draft year and it has begun to show itself as an asset again at the pro level. He checks a lot of the boxes that coaches look for.

 

[LetsGoBooze]

I've often thought moving Buch is probably our only realistic available way to obtain a possible 1D outside of getting lucky and drafting one next season. I'm on board with the idea, but like others have said not sure Nuke would be my first target. I think we'll know a ton more about this team and where it's headed 20 games into the season. If we're still a dumpster fire i fully expect DA to explore moving Buch either this deadline or next offseason.

 

[Majorityof1]

Nikishin is a damn good prospect and I'm not implying he's bad. But to not control the prospect in question at the cost of Buchnevich isn't a sound investment. It's the same reason Michkov fell in the draft. Not having control on the prospect, no matter the talent, means that the Blues could be left with nothing. Drafting a player in the same situation as Nikishin makes more sense as the chances of any prospect making the NHL is already low. But trading for Nikishin by using the most valuable trade chip the Blues have, and a damn good chip at that, doesn't adjust for the risk factor. Either the trade would need to include more pieces or the primary target would have to change.

I understand the confusion as the term "better" implies I'm looking for a higher caliber defenseman. Nikishin is in that Hughes/Jiricek/Nemec category currently. Finding a better prospect then that would be difficult. But finding a similar prospect that doesn't have near the risk associated with the acquisition wouldn't be difficult if the price was Buchnevich.

I'm coming around on the idea of this trade. But I only consider it if we think there is a chance not to extend Buchat a AAV and term we are comfortable with. If he is the Treasurer of the I St. Louis fan club with Vice President Sundqvist and President Perron, then I don't trade him. If he already has his house on the market with a close by date of the same day his contract expires, then this may be a good deal.

I don't think 2 years of buchnevich gets us any of the guys you put Nikishin with. If we have to gamble a bit and wait 2 years, then why not go for it rather than lose Buchnevich in free agency or pay out the nose for too much term. Those two years can be useful. If we play without Buchnevich we will be worse. That is two more years of higher draft picks, two less years of term on Krug and two more years of development for Nikushin, Dvorsky, Snuggy, Bolduc etc. In two years we can bring him over, move out Krug, and have our current prospects more ready to take over for Buchnevich, with even more high end prospects coming. It would essentially give us a 2 year rebuild/retool window.

Again, this is contingent on Buchnevich not looking likely to re-sign and our scouts thinking Nikishin is the real deal.

I think if we want high quality prospect for Buch we probably need to move him this year so a team gets two playoff runs with him. I don't know enough about Nikishin and the contract is a complication, but I like the idea.

I disagree. I think his best value is next summer with an extention in place. There is too much uncertainty with if he will re-sign with you and how much it will cost now. But for Carolina, the best value might be now with a ton of their D turning UFA next year, they may want to put all their cards on the table for a run this year.

 

[LGB]

I disagree. I think his best value is next summer with an extention in place. There is too much uncertainty with if he will re-sign with you and how much it will cost now. But for Carolina, the best value might be now with a ton of their D turning UFA next year, they may want to put all their cards on the table for a run this year.

I think Buch carries more value in his prime at a smaller cap hit, especially if we retain. Also will have more teams bidding since not many will be able to fit the Buch extension into their cap structure.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I'm coming around on the idea of this trade. But I only consider it if we think there is a chance not to extend Buchat a AAV and term we are comfortable with. If he is the Treasurer of the I St. Louis fan club with Vice President Sundqvist and President Perron, then I don't trade him. If he already has his house on the market with a close by date of the same day his contract expires, then this may be a good deal.

I don't think 2 years of buchnevich gets us any of the guys you put Nikishin with. If we have to gamble a bit and wait 2 years, then why not go for it rather than lose Buchnevich in free agency or pay out the nose for too much term. Those two years can be useful. If we play without Buchnevich we will be worse. That is two more years of higher draft picks, two less years of term on Krug and two more years of development for Nikushin, Dvorsky, Snuggy, Bolduc etc. In two years we can bring him over, move out Krug, and have our current prospects more ready to take over for Buchnevich, with even more high end prospects coming. It would essentially give us a 2 year rebuild/retool window.

Again, this is contingent on Buchnevich not looking likely to re-sign and our scouts thinking Nikishin is the real deal.

I disagree. I think his best value is next summer with an extention in place. There is too much uncertainty with if he will re-sign with you and how much it will cost now. But for Carolina, the best value might be now with a ton of their D turning UFA next year, they may want to put all their cards on the table for a run this year.

I look at what 2 years of timo and 2 years of debrincat got and I think you need much more than just nuke for buch. Nuke is nice prospect but unless he is coming with a 1st and another asset it’s not enough. Buch shouid be able to bring back significantly more than him now, at the trade deadline this year, and next summer. If we hold onto him until TDL 2025 then maybe I take guy like nuke at that point.

 

[Majorityof1]

I look at what 2 years of timo and 2 years of debrincat got and I think you need much more than just nuke for buch. Nuke is nice prospect but unless he is coming with a 1st and another asset it’s not enough. Buch shouid be able to bring back significantly more than him now, at the trade deadline this year, and next summer. If we hold onto him until TDL 2025 then maybe I take guy like nuke at that point.

Fair enough. I am coming from a position of ignorance. I haven't watched enough Nikushin. But if we can get more in a trade, then get more. I just think the baseline isn't that bad of an idea to trade Buchnevich who I am a huge fan of for a young cornerstone D given Buch only has 2 years left. and we won't be competitive in that window.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Fair enough. I am coming from a position of ignorance. I haven't watched enough Nikushin. But if we can get more in a trade, then get more. I just think the baseline isn't that bad of an idea to trade Buchnevich who I am a huge fan of for a young cornerstone D given Buch only has 2 years left. and we won't be competitive in that window.

I haven’t seen much of nuke either, admittedly, but if he is roughly 36th best prospect (as wheeler says) that alone isn’t enough for buchy.

 

[Celtic Note]

Whether this is the right trade or not, these are the types of trades we need to consider.

Someone who is a prospect and has shown improvement since his draft is one of the better approaches for finding a #1 D.

Drafting one next year just pushes us that much further away from a truly competitive timeline.

Finding a #1 D in the NHL already that can be a peak player with the rest of our young core may never happen.

 

[PocketNines]

My thoughts: Blues have (potential) top-6 wingers out the ass: Kyrou, Saad, Schenn, Vrana, Neighbors, Bolduc, Stenberg, Dvorsky, Hayes(?), Blais (?), Kapanen(?). You really only need 4 of those guys. Sure a couple of them are a couple of years away, but that's an easier gap to bridge than say, top-4 LD where you're forced to play Scandella, Krug or Rosen in a full-time role (shared amongst them). Blues aren't ever getting a Dahlin, Heiskanen, L. Hughes, etc. type that they need. If you've got to overpay for one...overpay in winger-assets.

Is Army going to give Buchnevich $8M+ and roll with Kyrou and Thomas (and the bloatedd defensive) contracts? Of the three (Thomas, Kyrou & Buchnevich), I value Buchnevich the most...but (1) is Buchy going to take a team-friendly deal to re-sign, (2) is he going to be worth that contract in his 30's, (3) doesn't trading him fit best for the time-line of the "re-tool"?

I think 100% of us would trade Kyrou over Buchnevich, if it came down to one or the other. Debrincat showed how much value a one-dimensional scoring winger really has, and I don't think GMDA can get value from trading Kyrou and his contract. But, I also don't think the Blues can afford to extend Buchy, w/o removing Kyrou...and the kids coming make it easy (-ier) to move on from a top-line winger. So, in my mind, the question becomes..."how do you get value for Kyrou - (HA!) otherwise, how much value can you get for Buchy?".

Not saying yes on the specific guy but I do think you are clear-eyed about what kind of move has to be made if it can be made. Agree on Kyrou/Buchnevich.

Additionally, draft a top pairing defenseman in 2024 if they can with that first pick.

 

[MissouriMook]

Maybe I’m high on copium, but I think Army is going to find a way to move Krug in the next 11 months and sign Devon Toews next offseason. We’ll all complain about the term and the cap hit, but we’ll be back to having a Top 10 D again.