Blues Trade Proposals 2023-2024

[Linkens Mastery]

Your more than welcome to speculate but a couple things. I watched Hull in the early 90's. He's actually the reason i became a Blues fan (not being from St.Louis and starting to watch hockey). Kyrou couldn't hold Hull's jock strap. Comparing the two is ridiculous. Hull wasn't a defensive player sure but not to Kyrou's level. Kyrou is not only completely defensively inept but he doesn't care either.

I know alot of people blow off +/- stats but i don't. Did Hull have some seasons in the negative or close to even. Sure. But he had more ending in the positive side and ended with a career positive as well.

I hope Kyrou comes out this year and proves me wrong. He just has to care. He has all the tools. I just don't see it happening.

(-38) Change my mind

Also helps when you don't have 4-5 players out of your top 6 aren't out injured for large parts of the season. Thomas, Tarasenko, Buchnevich, Saad, and RoR had long stretches where they were unavailable for one reason or another.

It's also not like Kyrou was the only one looking completely lazy out there. Thomas, Schenn, and Barbashev had multiple instances where they did the same damn thing yet those times are completely ignored to shit more on Kyrou. Or how about when Buchnevich lazily ignored the puck in his own skates and allowed the opposition to score.

Last year was a f***ing embarrassment, but it was not only one player. The entire team was an embarrassment, and a lot of that is due to the garbage fore coaching we had with MacTavish and the other dude I can remember the name of (Van Ryn?). Let's tell Faulk to completely ignore his strengths as a defenseman (defending the Blueline) and have the entire defensive group stand in one spot and wave their sticks at the puck.

 

[oPlaiD]

Kyrou is going to score 100 points some year and people here will still hate him.

 

[Frenzy31]

Also helps when you don't have 4-5 players out of your top 6 aren't out injured for large parts of the season. Thomas, Tarasenko, Buchnevich, Saad, and RoR had long stretches where they were unavailable for one reason or another.

It's also not like Kyrou was the only one looking completely lazy out there. Thomas, Schenn, and Barbashev had multiple instances where they did the same damn thing yet those times are completely ignored to shit more on Kyrou. Or how about when Buchnevich lazily ignored the puck in his own skates and allowed the opposition to score.

Last year was a f***ing embarrassment, but it was not only one player. The entire team was an embarrassment, and a lot of that is due to the garbage fore coaching we had with MacTavish and the other dude I can remember the name of (Van Ryn?). Let's tell Faulk to completely ignore his strengths as a defenseman (defending the Blueline) and have the entire defensive group stand in one spot and wave their sticks at the puck.

ROR was complete garbage for the first 16 game. But JK is the issue to some.. Our new whipping boy.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Is there a way to track goals scored against while on the ice with your goalie pulled? It may not be a huge number, but that has to attribute to some of Kyrou’s +/-, as he is certainly out there when we pull the goalie.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Is there a way to track goals scored against while on the ice with your goalie pulled? It may not be a huge number, but that has to attribute to some of Kyrou’s +/-, as he is certainly out there when we pull the goalie.

Naturalstattrick Kyrou was on the ice for 17 goals with an open net.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Naturalstattrick Kyrou was on the ice for 17 goals with an open net

So he was really closer to -20 give or take…which is still not great but not nearly as bad

 

[Bluesnatic27]

I understand the complaints surrounding Kyrou's lack of defense. It would be great to see him solidify that area of his game to a better level in order for his overall effectiveness to increase.

What I don't understand is how he's the sole forward that receives this treatment. Brayden Schenn was worse defensively than Kyrou and no one mentions him when talking about lack of defensive effectiveness. What, because Schenn plays more physically, it's okay he can worse than Kyrou? There are so many other problems with the team and so many players that have just as many concerns on the defensive side of the puck. Why single out the only player in the last decade plus, besides Tarasenko, to hit 70+ points in consecutive seasons while wearing a Blue note?

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

I understand the complaints surrounding Kyrou's lack of defense. It would be great to see him solidify that area of his game to a better level in order for his overall effectiveness to increase.

What I don't understand is how he's the sole forward that receives this treatment. Brayden Schenn was worse defensively than Kyrou and no one mentions him when talking about lack of defensive effectiveness. What, because Schenn plays more physically, it's okay he can worse than Kyrou? There are so many other problems with the team and so many players that have just as many concerns on the defensive side of the puck. Why single out the only player in the last decade plus, besides Tarasenko, to hit 70+ points in consecutive seasons while wearing a Blue note?

Scoring is over rated

 

[joe galiba]

Scoring is over rated

We need more guys like Ogie Ogilthorpe

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Scoring is over rated

Words said by teams like the NY Islanders

 

[Xerloris]

Is there a way to track goals scored against while on the ice with your goalie pulled? It may not be a huge number, but that has to attribute to some of Kyrou’s +/-, as he is certainly out there when we pull the goalie.

ya but none of those goals against with an empty net would have happened if Kyrou cared more and didn't play video games.

 

[STL fan in MN]

ROR was complete garbage for the first 16 game. But JK is the issue to some.. Our new whipping boy.

Well yeah, ROR was strapped to Kyrou those first 16 games.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Your more than welcome to speculate but a couple things. I watched Hull in the early 90's. He's actually the reason i became a Blues fan (not being from St.Louis and starting to watch hockey). Kyrou couldn't hold Hull's jock strap. Comparing the two is ridiculous. Hull wasn't a defensive player sure but not to Kyrou's level. Kyrou is not only completely defensively inept but he doesn't care either.

I know alot of people blow off +/- stats but i don't. Did Hull have some seasons in the negative or close to even. Sure. But he had more ending in the positive side and ended with a career positive as well.

I hope Kyrou comes out this year and proves me wrong. He just has to care. He has all the tools. I just don't see it happening.

(-38) Change my mind

hull was clearly a better player, but young hull was scarcely more responsible defensively than kyrou. hull eventually was browbeaten into defensive responsibility; no reason kyrou can't too.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Well yeah, ROR was strapped to Kyrou those first 16 games.

The funny part is looking at NaturalStatTrick with RoR+Kyrou

Kyrou w/ RoR 8GF 20GA (147 Mins TOI)
Kyrou w/o RoR 89GF 82GA (1275 Mins TOI)
RoR w/o Kyrou 26GF 46GA (588 Mins TOI)

If RoR played the same amount of minutes as Kyrou on the same pace he'd have a Higher GA (around 100) and a much lower GF (around 55).

But Remember Kyrou broke RoR and dragged him down to oblivion.

 

[STL fan in MN]

The funny part is looking at NaturalStatTrick with RoR+Kyrou

Kyrou w/ RoR 8GF 20GA (147 Mins TOI)
Kyrou w/o RoR 89GF 82GA (1275 Mins TOI)
RoR w/o Kyrou 26GF 46GA (588 Mins TOI)

If RoR played the same amount of minutes as Kyrou on the same pace he'd have a Higher GA (around 100) and a much lower GF (around 55).

But Remember Kyrou broke RoR and dragged him down to oblivion.

Did I use the wrong emoji? Let’s go with this one instead.

I was being facetious.

But yes, Kyrou and ROR were absolute garbage together but it wasn’t all Kyrou.

 

[Reality Czech]

I understand the complaints surrounding Kyrou's lack of defense. It would be great to see him solidify that area of his game to a better level in order for his overall effectiveness to increase.

What I don't understand is how he's the sole forward that receives this treatment. Brayden Schenn was worse defensively than Kyrou and no one mentions him when talking about lack of defensive effectiveness. What, because Schenn plays more physically, it's okay he can worse than Kyrou? There are so many other problems with the team and so many players that have just as many concerns on the defensive side of the puck. Why single out the only player in the last decade plus, besides Tarasenko, to hit 70+ points in consecutive seasons while wearing a Blue note?

How do you figure Schenn was worse defensively than Kyrou? Not a chance that is true. Don't tell me you're basing this on their corsi rating or something like that.

I do agree the Kyrou criticism is a bit over the top though. Not sure why he takes so much more crap than Thomas does, considering Thomas had a pretty rough season as well. He'll need to step up his overall game a lot if he's gonna be considered a true top center in this league.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Did I use the wrong emoji? Let’s go with this one instead.

I was being facetious.

But yes, Kyrou and ROR were absolute garbage together but it wasn’t all Kyrou.

That was more to piggy back off of what you were saying

 

[Stealth JD]

How do you figure Schenn was worse defensively than Kyrou? Not a chance that is true. Don't tell me you're basing this on their corsi rating or something like that.

I do agree the Kyrou criticism is a bit over the top though. Not sure why he takes so much more crap than Thomas does, considering Thomas had a pretty rough season as well. He'll need to step up his overall game a lot if he's gonna be considered a true top center in this league.

Schenn was f***ing terrible defensively last year. Between he and Kyrou, deciding who was worse is an exercise in futility. If the Blues can somehow get out of the remainder of that Schenn deal, they should do it as fast as possible.

 

[Reality Czech]

Schenn was f***ing terrible defensively last year. Between he and Kyrou, deciding who was worse is an exercise in futility. If the Blues can somehow get out of the remainder of that Schenn deal, they should do it as fast as possible.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what? Sheesh.

I'm just wondering what criteria he used to say Schenn is worse than Kyrou defensively. I guarantee you guys don't know as much about evaluating talent as you think you do. Not saying I'm necessarily better but at least I know that. Schenn ain't getting traded anytime soon.

 

[LogosBlue]

You guys are right. The entire team was a defensive mess last year and a lot of that can be blamed on the coaching (Monty leaving hurt), MacTavish was a joke etc. But what stuck out to me last year was how Kyrou gave up on plays, didn't get in on plays to break them up and didn't utilize his speed to turn the play from defense to offense. He would just stand there watching the play develop and wait for someone else to get the puck back for him. If he is going to be a top line player, this has to change. There is a big difference between being a complementary scoring winger on a stacked team and being THE guy. You gotta get in there. Berube had every right to be upset and frustrated with him last year.

I think its great that he can score. He's gotta mature defensively. Alot

 

[Linkens Mastery]

You guys are right. The entire team was a defensive mess last year and a lot of that can be blamed on the coaching (Monty leaving hurt), MacTavish was a joke etc. But what stuck out to me last year was how Kyrou gave up on plays, didn't get in on plays to break them up and didn't utilize his speed to turn the play from defense to offense. He would just stand there watching the play develop and wait for someone else to get the puck back for him. If he is going to be a top line player, this has to change. There is a big difference between being a complementary scoring winger on a stacked team and being THE guy. You gotta get in there. Berube had every right to be upset and frustrated with him last year.

I think its great that he can score. He's gotta mature defensively. Alot

EVERYONE ON THE TEAM was doing the same exact shit. Constantly. Kyrou needs to be better, substantially better, but blaming the entire damn teams issue on one singular player is ridiculous.

Multiple of the Blues great scoring players in the past had the same defects. Tarasenko being the prime example yet people anyways gave him a pass. He was horrendous defensively at the start and still makes terrible defensive plays (example: Nylander [or Marner?] stripping him of the puck in overtime last year and him coasting back when he was the only one there.) Why is his terrible defensive play overlooked while Kyrou is under a microscope?

Hell even when Kyrou does make good defensive plays (Empty Net vs the Hawks last year, Kane was going in for #450 and Kyrou absolutely smothers him, steals the puck, and then gets it back up ice) it's completely ignored so we can go back to shitting on him.

I get he's the f***ing whipping boy for everyone wanting us to turn into the NY Islanders but the double standards between him and other players is hilarious.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

How do you figure Schenn was worse defensively than Kyrou? Not a chance that is true. Don't tell me you're basing this on their corsi rating or something like that.

I based that opinion on multiple categories between the two players when at even strength.

Schenn had higher values in shot-attempts against (So both Corsi and Fenwick), expected goals against, actuals shots against, scoring chances against, and high danger shot attempts against. I disregarded offensive contributions (which would be to Schenn's betterment) and only looked at metrics against the Blues with both players on the ice. I also broke down the two players ice time to account for if they were paired together vs. not. Their metrics were putrid together, but Kyrou's improved dramatically when moved away from Schenn and Schenn's stayed closer to the numbers when they're together. The major difference between the two was Kyrou's results were significantly worse than the predictive values while Schenn's were significantly better than his predicative values. So Kyrou was on the ice for more goals against than Schenn. In terms of play, Kyrou was playing better defensively than Schenn was last year but the results went Schenn's way.

Broken Down:

	TOI	Average TOI / TOI per Game	Corsi Against/60	Fenwick Against/60	Shots Against/60	Scoring Chances Against/60	Expected Goals Against/60	High Danger Corsi Against/60	Goals Against
Kyrou With Schenn	397:13	5:01	63.44	48.64	35.65	35.19	4.88	14.5	40
Kyrou Alone	791:34	10:01	57.83	43.96	30.85	32.97	3.16	13.72	54
Schenn Alone	839:49	10:14	63.23	48.44	34.58	35.08	3.37	15.22	43

All metrics are based on Even Strength and the metrics are labelled "/60" to denote a per 60 minutes basis while any other metric without are counts unless labelled otherwise. All numbers are found on Natural Stat Trick. I highlighted the worse number between the two as red.

So yeah, it's not hard to say that Schenn was worse defensively than Kyrou. Neither were good and both need to find a way to improve their overall affect on the game. But, if anything, Kyrou's faults were always under a microscope because his results were worse. Doing any sort of research would point to other players playing, at least, equally bad defensively but just walking away unscathed more frequently. I wouldn't say Kyrou was unlucky, more so others were luckier.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Buchnevich-Thomas-Kyrou needs to be together every game.

Kyrou w/ Thomas w/ Buch 57 GP 339 Min 37 GF 18 GA

Kyrou w/ Thomas 70 GP 513 min 29 GF 40 GA

Thomas w/ Buch 60 GP 308 Min 18 GF 15 GA

Kyrou w/ Buch 60 GP 60 Min 7 GF 3 GA

At those paces if all three of those players played just 513 minutes together they would have 56 GF and 27 GA. Thomas, Kyrou, and Buchnevich had very strong chemistry when they played together (Buchnevich blue line blind pass to a Kyrou tip in Goal in front of the net as example). These three are our best forwards and should be playing with each other.

 

[Majorityof1]

EVERYONE ON THE TEAM was doing the same exact shit. Constantly. Kyrou needs to be better, substantially better, but blaming the entire damn teams issue on one singular player is ridiculous.

Multiple of the Blues great scoring players in the past had the same defects. Tarasenko being the prime example yet people anyways gave him a pass. He was horrendous defensively at the start and still makes terrible defensive plays (example: Nylander [or Marner?] stripping him of the puck in overtime last year and him coasting back when he was the only one there.) Why is his terrible defensive play overlooked while Kyrou is under a microscope?

Hell even when Kyrou does make good defensive plays (Empty Net vs the Hawks last year, Kane was going in for #450 and Kyrou absolutely smothers him, steals the puck, and then gets it back up ice) it's completely ignored so we can go back to shitting on him.

I get he's the f***ing whipping boy for everyone wanting us to turn into the NY Islanders but the double standards between him and other players is hilarious.

It's hard to take anything meaningful from last year when the team defensive strategy seemed to be aimed at pissing Binnington off to the point he killed someone and we could get out of that contract. That is the only fathomable reason for our defensive scheme.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

It's hard to take anything meaningful from last year when the team defensive strategy seemed to be aimed at pissing Binnington off to the point he killed someone and we could get out of that contract. That is the only fathomable reason for our defensive scheme.

"Let's piss off Binnington and have all of our defenseman completely ignore their strengths" MacTavish, probably