Blow it up?

[Mayor Bee]

Thanks for the friendly welcome! And yes, I am a Howson hater.

I never said we would find a 40 pt player at 1 million dollars. But if you think about how Umberger slots in, and the direction this team is going, he doesn't fit. Look at the lines and tell me, when healthy, RJ slots into the top 6. If Umberger scores 20, I'll stop posting. I hope to God he scores 20, but he won't. He won't be playing top 6 minutes, nor will he be on the powerplay. Soooo about the 20-20-40, probably a stretch.

Brad Boyes had 35 points in 48 games last year; he cost Florida $1 mil to sign. Pierre-Marc Bouchard has been able to consistently produce when on the ice (even injured); he cost the Islanders $2 mil. Hell, Vinny Prospal would take less than $1 mil to sign; he can still produce as well.

They're out there, but signing Frederic St. Denis and Ilari Melart was apparently a bigger priority.

 

[InauguralCBJFan]

I don't think RJ is top 6, remember I'm just refuting your claim that he's a 4th liner. And you did say you can replace his production for a quarter the price, which is a bit over million dollars. RJ doesn't belong on a scoring line, I'm with you on that part, but he's been great in the Holmstrom position on the powerplay.

Just saying that when we get everyone back, I don't think RJ sees top 6 or top 9 minutes, which will limit his production. Also have to think with Horton back, it'll eat into his PP time. Are there any other 3rd or 4th liners that make $4.6 million?

My top healthy 9:
8, 10, 11, 13, 17, 19, 42, 55, 71.

 

[major major]

Just saying that when we get everyone back, I don't think RJ sees top 6 or top 9 minutes, which will limit his production. Also have to think with Horton back, it'll eat into his PP time. Are there any other 3rd or 4th liners that make $4.6 million?

My top healthy 9:
8, 10, 11, 13, 17, 19, 42, 55, 71.

I don't expect all those players to be in the lineup at once. And yes, if you look at other teams boards many fanbases are pissed off because they have a guy making $4 or $5 million who can't produce at a top six rate.

Erat, Booth, Malone, Hartnell, Clarkson, Tuomo Ruutu, Clowe, Olli Jokinen, maybe a few others.

 

[Fro]

Brad Boyes had 35 points in 48 games last year; he cost Florida $1 mil to sign. Pierre-Marc Bouchard has been able to consistently produce when on the ice (even injured); he cost the Islanders $2 mil. Hell, Vinny Prospal would take less than $1 mil to sign; he can still produce as well.

They're out there, but signing Frederic St. Denis and Ilari Melart was apparently a bigger priority.

when (as porty reported a while back) Prospal was disliked by many players, coaches, and staff, as much as he was, there was little chance that he was coming back...even more when his salary desires were more than the team was willing to give him...I really wish the Prospal talk would go away, its not going to happen...

 

[blahblah]

when (as porty reported a while back) Prospal was disliked by many players, coaches, and staff, as much as he was, there was little chance that he was coming back...even more when his salary desires were more than the team was willing to give him...I really wish the Prospal talk would go away, its not going to happen...

I wish the Prospal isn't coming back you fools talk would go away.

He didn't say bring Prospal back.

I have no belief that he will come back. I will also say that I have less than no faith in anything that AP says. I would like to thank AP in his 13th hour reporting on Prospal. Months after it was apparent he wasn't coming back. Gee, really AP? You get the gossip after the obvious? Award winning there bud.

 

[Fro]

the AP piece was in the height of the "we need him now" speak in the chat and twitter and anywhere else you can think of...his piece laid out why we wouldn't bring him back...

 

[Samkow]

Brad Boyes had 35 points in 48 games last year; he cost Florida $1 mil to sign. Pierre-Marc Bouchard has been able to consistently produce when on the ice (even injured); he cost the Islanders $2 mil. Hell, Vinny Prospal would take less than $1 mil to sign; he can still produce as well.

They're out there, but signing Frederic St. Denis and Ilari Melart was apparently a bigger priority.

Sometimes these mistakes work out. Future HHOFer Scott Howson signed Mike York instead of Wade Redden back in 2008. Would you redo that? Didn't think so.

 

[blahblah]

Sometimes these mistakes work out. Future HHOFer Scott Howson signed Mike York instead of Wade Redden back in 2008. Would you redo that? Didn't think so.

Where in the world did this come from? To be honest, we did a contract comparable to Redden (in money and scope) this off season. Time will tell if that was a good decision. There is enough evidence to suggest it could turn out to be idiotic.

I have no idea where you are going with this one.

 

[Samkow]

Where in the world did this come from? To be honest, we did a contract comparable to Redden (in money and scope) this off season. Time will tell if that was a good decision. There is enough evidence to suggest it could turn out to be idiotic.

I have no idea where you are going with this one.

Hey, if signing 2 AHL defensemen is somehow related to not signing Boyes/Bouchard/Prospal, than Mike York was signed instead of Wade Redden.

 

[InauguralCBJFan]

when (as porty reported a while back) Prospal was disliked by many players, coaches, and staff, as much as he was, there was little chance that he was coming back...even more when his salary desires were more than the team was willing to give him...I really wish the Prospal talk would go away, its not going to happen...

I've heard from more than one dad around youth hockey that Prospal was a bit of a nut job...but rightfully so, none of the other dads made a career out of playing hockey.

That being said, I don't see why other players didn't like him. He played his heart out, left it all on the ice, and led us in scoring. What's not to like? The fact that when it hit the fan, he was the first one to call people out? Part of being a good leader is making everybody accountable, whether they wanted to hear it or not.

 

[jdhebner]

when (as porty reported a while back) Prospal was disliked by many players, coaches, and staff, as much as he was, there was little chance that he was coming back...even more when his salary desires were more than the team was willing to give him...I really wish the Prospal talk would go away, its not going to happen...

Here is what was reported:

There's no nice way to say this: Vinny Prospal is not an easy teammate. He might have a heightened sense of his place in the game. He has never won a Stanley Cup, and so his strong opinions -- offered without invitation at times -- can rub players the wrong way.

"I'll say it: Vinny can be an a--hole," one of Prospal's close friends said.
....
Prospal is the type to call out other players - face to face, not through a public airing -- when they're not working hard enough, either in games or practices. Prospal is not the perfect player - speed has never been an asset -- but few players work harder.

link to full article: http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/blogs/puck-rakers/2013/11/lost-and-losing.html

That's a far cry from being disliked by many.

God I wish this thing would go away...

 

[blahblah]

Hey, if signing 2 AHL defensemen is somehow related to not signing Boyes/Bouchard/Prospal, than Mike York was signed instead of Wade Redden.

I think the point was that signing AHL defensemen were a higher priority than inexpensive secondary scoring (on the team that doesn't score a lot).

Not sure if that was true or not. I think the right answer is that signing Bob and Horton were a higher priority than inexpensive secondary scoring.

All this talk about who like Prospal and who didn't sounds like high school gossip with a hint of teen age girl drama. They sure played well last season with someone they didn't like. Sure didn't seem to affect the locker room or on-ice in a negative way. If that is true, they all need to ****ing grow up. No one could accuse him of being a diva.

I think this had more to do with dollars and long term direction than all the teen age drama.

 

[pete goegan]

I think this had more to do with dollars and long term direction than all the teen age drama.

That's how I see it, too.

 

[Robert]

The Prospal ship has sailed folks.... we have the leaders, and Jack Johnson is not one of them.

Jenner was not my pick over Prospal but it is what it is.... move on.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Sometimes these mistakes work out. Future HHOFer Scott Howson signed Mike York instead of Wade Redden back in 2008. Would you redo that? Didn't think so.

....except that's not what happened at all. Redden was signed July 1, 2008; York was picked up on July 25, only after a KHL contract with Sibir was cancelled.

Compare to this year, with a July 5 starting date:
July 5 - signed Nathan Horton, Ryan Craig, and Mike McKenna
July 6 - signed Patrick McNeill
July 7 - signed Jack Skille and Frederic St. Denis
July 19 - signed Blake Parlett

Elsewhere around the league:
July 5 - Mike Ribeiro (PHX), Pierre-Marc Bouchard (NYI), Tyler Bozak (TOR), Clarke MacArthur (OTT)
July 6 - Derek Roy (STL)
July 16 - Dustin Penner (ANA)
July 22 - Jaromir Jagr (NJ)
Unsigned TC invites - Radek Dvorak, Mason Raymond, Brad Boyes, Damien Brunner

With the exception of Ribeiro and Bozak, all of these players were signed to short-term deals at very reasonable salary terms. To suggest that a higher priority was placed on signings like Frederic St. Denis than on bolstering depth scoring is not unreasonable, as this record bears out.

 

[major major]

....except that's not what happened at all. Redden was signed July 1, 2008; York was picked up on July 25, only after a KHL contract with Sibir was cancelled.

Compare to this year, with a July 5 starting date:
July 5 - signed Nathan Horton, Ryan Craig, and Mike McKenna
July 6 - signed Patrick McNeill
July 7 - signed Jack Skille and Frederic St. Denis
July 19 - signed Blake Parlett

Elsewhere around the league:
July 5 - Mike Ribeiro (PHX), Pierre-Marc Bouchard (NYI), Tyler Bozak (TOR), Clarke MacArthur (OTT)
July 6 - Derek Roy (STL)
July 16 - Dustin Penner (ANA)
July 22 - Jaromir Jagr (NJ)
Unsigned TC invites - Radek Dvorak, Mason Raymond, Brad Boyes, Damien Brunner

With the exception of Ribeiro and Bozak, all of these players were signed to short-term deals at very reasonable salary terms. To suggest that a higher priority was placed on signings like Frederic St. Denis than on bolstering depth scoring is not unreasonable, as this record bears out.

I don't know why you're bothering with the chronology, no one is going to believe you that Frederic St. Denis had anything to do with this. Prospal wasn't in competition with AHLer's for spots.

What's clear is that Jarmo doesn't especially want Prospal back.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I don't know why you're bothering with the chronology, no one is going to believe you that Frederic St. Denis had anything to do with this. Prospal wasn't in competition with AHLer's for spots.

What's clear is that Jarmo doesn't especially want Prospal back.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Prospal. It has everything to do with the fact that scoring from first- and second-line players was out there in free agency on the cheap, but was not pursued. I mentioned Prospal's name after Brad Boyes and Pierre-March Bouchard. I did not say "bring Prospal back"; what I said was that scoring was available in free agency for value, and nothing more.

 

[Crede777]

It really seems like Jarmo banked on there being a rash of injuries to our defensemen. Instead, it happened at forward where we were weakest.

 

[EspenK]

My guess is that those FA's weren't gritty enough for the rough and tumble Jackets.

Also probably had to due with cap dollars.

 

[blahblah]

With the exception of Ribeiro and Bozak, all of these players were signed to short-term deals at very reasonable salary terms. To suggest that a higher priority was placed on signings like Frederic St. Denis than on bolstering depth scoring is not unreasonable, as this record bears out.

Just so we're clear. Are suggesting that we not have signed Comeau and spend his million on... Who again? Were you suggesting that we make trades to reduce our cap hit so that we could sign an old dude to a short team "affordable" deal?

Pretty much none of those "affordable guys" were affordable to our cap situation. Even less so now.

Is there somewhere you are going with this? I kind of agree that Prospal wasn't a priority; but I'm not sure we agree why. Certainly not sure I agree that anything you suggested, with the players you listed, were meaningful in any way. Seems a bit like sour grapes or something.

It's great to list off all those players, hell I wanted Raymond from day one (not on your list). Doesn't mean there is anything realistically we could have done with those names unless we moved other player(s).

 

[major major]

I don't know if its fair to pin it on Jarmo that we're so short on forwards right now.. I could be wrong but I thought we had an average number of bodies up front. That doesn't prepare you to lose 3 of your top 4 scorers, but does anything prepare you for that?

 

[EspenK]

I don't know if its fair to pin it on Jarmo that we're so short on forwards right now.. I could be wrong but I thought we had an average number of bodies up front. That doesn't prepare you to lose 3 of your top 4 scorers, but does anything prepare you for that?

I tend to agree. We had 13 signed including Jenner. Big problem was (and still is) that we didn't have a lot (any?) guys in the system ready to step up and play top 6 minutes and signing one of the bargains listed above would have necessitated sending someone down to make room for them.

 

[InauguralCBJFan]

I tend to agree. We had 13 signed including Jenner. Big problem was (and still is) that we didn't have a lot (any?) guys in the system ready to step up and play top 6 minutes and signing one of the bargains listed above would have necessitated sending someone down to make room for them.

I think any is more appropriate. When Tim Erixon leads Springy in points with 12 GP as opposed to 20, well...yeah. Dont think the forwards in our system are ready for the big leagues.

JAM has certainly cooled off since last season. 4-9-13 -6 in 20 gp.

 

[CapnCornelius]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Prospal. It has everything to do with the fact that scoring from first- and second-line players was out there in free agency on the cheap, but was not pursued. I mentioned Prospal's name after Brad Boyes and Pierre-March Bouchard. I did not say "bring Prospal back"; what I said was that scoring was available in free agency for value, and nothing more.

But, I thought we didn't need to acquire scoring through free agency because Scott Howson did such a swell job drafting and stocking our minor leagues? I mean, shouldn't Cam Atkinson be doing his Patrick Kane impersonation by now? Wasn't that the plan?

The reality is that we didn't have a ton of cap room after accounting for Bob's cap room, signing Horton, etc. Jarmo made the decision to hope these guys could stay in striking distance until Horton's return and then kept some cap space to further boost the team through a deadline trade. But he also gave himself flexibility that, if it didn't work, he could trade Gaborik and save money. Let's face it, there was no guaranty that going all in for this year would work based on last year's performance in a shortened season. So Jarmo hedged his bets.

Beyond that, the biggest mistake he made wasn't failing to sign some middling forward to take ice time away from guys like Atkinson and Jenner who need to be assessed anyhow. It was not signing a better backup goalie, particularly when our starter's track record is mixed. There are honestly still guys who are unsigned better than what we've got--Theodore and Hedberg come to mind.

 

[Mayor Bee]

But, I thought we didn't need to acquire scoring through free agency because Scott Howson did such a swell job drafting and stocking our minor leagues? I mean, shouldn't Cam Atkinson be doing his Patrick Kane impersonation by now? Wasn't that the plan?

That's a fairly feeble jab, particularly because if we derive a natural conclusion from your statement, we must condemn this offseason.

Howson was criticized for banking too much on young players breaking through. Particularly in his early days, that was due to the complete lack of depth and NHL talent in the system, which is no longer the case.

A huge amount of pressure was placed coming into this year on Jenner securing a roster spot, Johansen breaking through, Calvert rebounding, and Atkinson continuing to progress. This team was 25th in goals scored last year, yet the only forward signed was someone who wouldn't be available for months and whose career high in points trails Antoine Vermette's and Kristian Huselius'.

The reality is that we didn't have a ton of cap room after accounting for Bob's cap room, signing Horton, etc. Jarmo made the decision to hope these guys could stay in striking distance until Horton's return and then kept some cap space to further boost the team through a deadline trade. But he also gave himself flexibility that, if it didn't work, he could trade Gaborik and save money. Let's face it, there was no guaranty that going all in for this year would work based on last year's performance in a shortened season. So Jarmo hedged his bets.

It's tough to listen to the stuff about "flexibility" when the likely return in the event of a Gaborik trade would be a package, and when acquiring a package is actually impossible because the team sits at 49/50 contracts.

No one has suggested going all in this year. Picking up cheap depth scoring wouldn't be going all in, it would be hedging to allow the best developmental scenario for the youngsters. If Johansen didn't break through, he could be sent down without touching waivers. If Jenner was in over his head, he could be sent down. Or if Blake Comeau didn't rebound, or if someone's game went in the toilet, it wouldn't be catastrophic.

Beyond that, the biggest mistake he made wasn't failing to sign some middling forward to take ice time away from guys like Atkinson and Jenner who need to be assessed anyhow. It was not signing a better backup goalie, particularly when our starter's track record is mixed. There are honestly still guys who are unsigned better than what we've got--Theodore and Hedberg come to mind.

I spoke up in favor of Hedberg back when. I know from my Atlanta fan folks that he's an enormously popular teammate and an extremely dedicated professional, and there's been nary a peep to contradict that since he was a Thrasher.