Management Bill Guerin

[Dickie Dunn]

It's pretty clear that Theofanous is following the the template he set for Panarin. Four years of RFA $$, contract ends, then he backs up a Brink's truck to whatever team offers the most $$$$$$. All the rest is just noise.

This^

He’s not even trying to hide it. That’s why it will likely take $9+ to get him to take a 4 or 5 year deal. Imo

 

[Wasted Talent]

It's pretty clear that Theofanous is following the the template he set for Panarin. Four years of RFA $$, contract ends, then he backs up a Brink's truck to whatever team offers the most $$$$$$. All the rest is just noise.

Panarin hired Theofanous in 2019, after those 4 years of RFA were over. If anything, maybe Panarin fired the previous agent because he was unable to properly cash in on the RFA years.

And now Kaprizov is reportedly trying to make big bucks on his RFA years.

 

[GuerinUp]

for those of you comparing guerin to fletcher id like to point out a few key differences

he didnt give up the farm to protect a mediocre player in the ED
He didnt trade our best youngish defensemen for a pile of garbage (and yes im calling coyle garbage), only to see him win a norris a few years later with that team.
he didnt hire mike freaking yeo or todd richards

 

[DeagleJenkins]

for those of you comparing guerin to fletcher id like to point out a few key differences

he didnt give up the farm to protect a mediocre player in the ED
He didnt trade our best youngish defensemen for a pile of garbage (and yes im calling coyle garbage), only to see him win a norris a few years later with that team.
he didnt hire mike freaking yeo or todd richards

Brodin and dumba are mediocre? Unless I’m mistaken tuch went to Vegas so they wouldn’t touch our blue line.

 

[GuerinUp]

Brodin and dumba are mediocre? Unless I’m mistaken tuch went to Vegas so they wouldn’t touch our blue line.

okay, maybe i exaggerated their skill to prove the point. but he shouldve just let them take one of them instead of giving up tuch AND haula

 

[thestonedkoala]

okay, maybe i exaggerated their skill to prove the point. but he shouldve just let them take one of them instead of giving up tuch AND haula

You're re-writing the narrative too much to give credit to Guerin, which isn't surprising given your name.

 

[GuerinUp]

You're re-writing the narrative too much to give credit to Guerin, which isn't surprising given your name.

im not rewriting any narratives. What was our problem going into the suter parise buyouts? we had too much money on our blueline. problem solved if one of those defensemen had been taken by vegas in the ED, also youd have tuch as your linemate for fiala, and a top 6 c potentially in haula (as he may not have hurt his knee here had he stayed). And my SN has more to do with a play on words than any loyalty to him whatsoever. That being said, i am on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to the witchhunt some of the people here have on guerin.

 

[Uberdachen]

he didnt give up the farm to protect a mediocre player in the ED

He protected the exact same guy at a cost of ~25m in dead cap.

 

[BagHead]

He protected the exact same guy at a cost of ~25m in dead cap.

Only if you think that was his sole reason for the buyouts. I'm sure the expansion draft played a role in his decision, but I doubt it was even the primary role.

 

[thestonedkoala]

im not rewriting any narratives.

Yes, you are.

What was our problem going into the suter parise buyouts? we had too much money on our blueline.

With the extensions of Spurgeon and Brodin (not a problem back then). It also had to do with the makeup and the size of the defense (which wasn't a problem back then either)

also youd have tuch as your linemate for fiala, and a top 6 c potentially in haula (as he may not have hurt his knee here had he stayed).

LOL...Tuch was seen as a middle 6 right wing in the mold of Kunin. A lot of fans didn't like that he was to be given up, but him or Greenway were better than the alternatives (and luckily they didn't pick Kaprizov). It was buyer's remorse when Tuch actually developed into a top 6/top line right winger. But a lot of fans didn't see him as much more than a middle 6 guy almost similar to Coyle - inconsistent and middling.

Haula wanted out, period. The Wild weren't going to be able to keep him and Haula was sick of being stuck in the bottom 6 role. The divorce between Haula and Minnesota was apparent as they had Staal and Koivu and Haula wasn't going to see the minutes. The fact that you think that Haula would have been a top 6 center here really illustrates how you are trying to re-write the narrative, because that wasn't the narrative then and it isn't the narrative now. Haula wanted out, he made that perfectly clear. Most fans wanted Haula gone as well, because he was just another bottom 6 forward here in Minnesota.

he didnt give up the farm to protect a mediocre player in the ED
He didnt trade our best youngish defensemen for a pile of garbage (and yes im calling coyle garbage), only to see him win a norris a few years later with that team.
he didnt hire mike freaking yeo or todd richards

I guess I'm going to have to address these points:

He managed to turn a strength (the defense) into - whatever the hell the defense is now. They lost two of their three left-handed defensemen and had no one to replace them with. He signed Goligoski, which is a wash from Suter. And Soucy into...uh Kulikov? I think. So, he spent as much if not more for two older guys. Good job. We'll see how the defense does.

LOL Burns was inconsistent and fans were getting frustrated at when Burns would break out. They were also very nervous that he wouldn't sign back with Minnesota as they didn't have the cap space. He traded for Coyle (a blue chip prospect at the time), Setoguchi (a young thirty goal scorer) and a 1st. He whiffed, but it'd been like trading Dumba for Boldy, Fiala and a 1st. You do that trade all day long.

He hired Dean Evason. We'll see how that goes.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Part of being a good GM is foreseeing these possible outcomes and adjusting ahead of time

Which Guerin hasn't really done, yet.

Tuch was never seen as a player like kunin. And although there were mixed views on who would be better between greenway and tuch, i for one never believed greenway would be better and history has proven this. I also never thought he was going to be like coyle, because ive never been a fan of coyle and thought he was a meh prospect from the get go. Neiderreiter, different story.

And you're interjecting what YOU believe in here. That's not the narrative at the time and you're using your perceptions to color what you think is the truth. Hence changing the narrative. Just because YOU thought of something, doesn't make it the truth.

Tuch was seen as a middling 6 player at the time, similar to Kunin (not saying they have the skill sets, but what they were projected to be). He was the best prospect the Wild had, but they had a weak farm system from being a playoff team and from not drafting well. Tuch had a good season in the AHL, again given the talent, but it was hard to peg what he was going to be - especially with the depth in front of him.

I never wanted haula gone, and have been very vocal on these boards about how he was never given a fair shot in the top 6 because the vets ran the show under fletcher (another reason hes not comparable to guerin) haula put up points and was a top 6 c everywhere he went before he was mismanaged here. You all claim we can never develop a top 6 c? look at his stats in vegas pre injury. We had one, let the vets determined who played where (fletchers fault), and then basically paid to give him away when he finally got fed up with it.

Again, it's what YOU wanted.

Guerin is doing the same thing, albeit a different flavor than Fletcher. He shipped out Staal for Evason's favorite Johansson. Brought in Bjugstad, Bonino who he had a relationship with in Pittsburgh. Signed Foligno to what fans think is a laughable large contract. Signed Goligoski to replace Suter.

 

[Bazeek]

im not rewriting any narratives. What was our problem going into the suter parise buyouts? we had too much money on our blueline. problem solved if one of those defensemen had been taken by vegas in the ED, also youd have tuch as your linemate for fiala, and a top 6 c potentially in haula (as he may not have hurt his knee here had he stayed). And my SN has more to do with a play on words than any loyalty to him whatsoever. That being said, i am on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to the witchhunt some of the people here have on guerin.

Hindsight is very much 20/20 here. In hindsight the best move wouldn't have been to expose one of Dumba or Brodin but to go 4-4 and expose some of the forwards. The problem with that is that Niederreiter, Coyle and Granlund all had career years in 2016-17, Staal was the first 1C-ish looking center we'd had in a while, and Zucker was looking like a reliable 20-goal scorer. With the information available at the time, giving up a good forward prospect (a position of strength, at that time) to have Vegas take a player that wasn't in the team's future plans was a defensible move.

Same thing with the Burns trade. In hindsight it didn't work out, but there was a reason you heard cheers from the audience in St Paul when Bettman announced that a fan favorite player was being traded: it was an acknowledgement by management that what they'd been doing for two seasons wasn't working and that a course-correction was needed.

And I think many us have been looking for a similar move from Guerin this offseason. I know that I have, anyway. At this point I think there's an argument to be made that the time isn't quite right for it, or that the timelines had to be changed after the RFA extensions didn't go as planned, but at some point Guerin's going to need to go high or low here. The dead cap space will ensure that.

 

[GuerinUp]

Which Guerin hasn't really done, yet.



And you're interjecting what YOU believe in here. That's not the narrative at the time and you're using your perceptions to color what you think is the truth. Hence changing the narrative. Just because YOU thought of something, doesn't make it the truth.

Tuch was seen as a middling 6 player at the time, similar to Kunin (not saying they have the skill sets, but what they were projected to be). He was the best prospect the Wild had, but they had a weak farm system from being a playoff team and from not drafting well. Tuch had a good season in the AHL, again given the talent, but it was hard to peg what he was going to be - especially with the depth in front of him.



Again, it's what YOU wanted.

Guerin is doing the same thing, albeit a different flavor than Fletcher. He shipped out Staal for Evason's favorite Johansson. Brought in Bjugstad, Bonino who he had a relationship with in Pittsburgh. Signed Foligno to what fans think is a laughable large contract. Signed Goligoski to replace Suter.

what would you call the buyouts and shipping off of all the aging vets?

We can agree to disagree on all the below points, but we constantly are debating whos takes on roster moves and builds are right and wrong. but there were some of us that liked those moves (which turned to failure) and some who hated them (which turned out to be true) now we have a different GM that aligns more with those of us who hated those moves. Only time will tell who is right on this one. But i for one (and i know im in the minority) have much more faith in the direction guerin is taking this team than i ever had in fletcher.

 

[Minnewildsota]

what would you call the buyouts and shipping off of all the aging vets?

We can agree to disagree on all the below points, but we constantly are debating whos takes on roster moves and builds are right and wrong. but there were some of us that liked those moves (which turned to failure) and some who hated them (which turned out to be true) now we have a different GM that aligns more with those of us who hated those moves. Only time will tell who is right on this one. But i for one (and i know im in the minority) have much more faith in the direction guerin is taking this team than i ever had in fletcher.

Same

 

[thestonedkoala]

what would you call the buyouts and shipping off of all the aging vets?

You mean like bringing in Kulikov, Goligoski and Merrill? Or trading Pateryn for Cole? Or signing Bjugstad or Gaudreau? Or re-signing Foligno?

 

[Minnewildsota]

You mean like bringing in Kulikov, Goligoski and Merrill? Or trading Pateryn for Cole? Or signing Bjugstad or Gaudreau? Or re-signing Foligno?

Yeah, they've all been signed to very long deals that will hinder the team. Good point.

 

[GuerinUp]

Yeah, they've all been signed to very long deals that will hinder the team. Good point.

i like how he even slips in late 20s and early 30s and considers them aging

 

[thestonedkoala]

Yeah, they've all been signed to very long deals that will hinder the team. Good point.

What's the point of signing them?

i like how he even slips in late 20s and early 30s and considers them aging

Gaudreau is 28, Merill is 29. They are aging veterans. I'd consider young guys around 18-25.

 

[GuerinUp]

What's the point of signing them?



Gaudreau is 28, Merill is 29. They are aging veterans. I'd consider young guys around 18-25.

aging veterens are over 32/33 typically showing signs of regression... they are just veterens.

And they are signed as stop gaps until the younger guys are ready and to push the younger guys to earn their spot. hence the short term deals.

 

[Bazeek]

What's the point of signing them?

To ice a full 23 man roster.

Removing veterans like Staal, Zucker, Suter and Parise who had large contracts and/or were playing key roles on the team is different than filling out the bottom of the roster with cheap veterans. If anything it makes it easier for a coach to take some risks putting guys like Boldy and Rossi straight into top-9 roles.

Goligoski's the only one that looks lateral in that respect: same age, same role, basically the same cap hit ($5m + $2.3m from the buyout).

 

[GuerinUp]

kulikov is a beast on defense also. which is why he was signed.

 

[123TripleDoge]

I like how every time our GM grabs a player he has a history with, we pretend that every GM in the league doesn't do the same.

 

[thestonedkoala]

To ice a full 23 man roster.

Removing veterans like Staal, Zucker, Suter and Parise who had large contracts and/or were playing key roles on the team is different than filling out the bottom of the roster with cheap veterans.

Based off of Evason talking, he doesn't see Gaudreau being a 'bottom of the roster' guy. Kulikov, Merrill and Goligoski are going to see some time as well.

If anything it makes it easier for a coach to take some risks putting guys like Boldy and Rossi straight into top-9 roles.

And what if they don't? Both of them go back to the AHL and they simply roll with the team they have now.

Goligoski's the only one that looks lateral in that respect: same age, same role, basically the same cap hit ($5m + $2.3m from the buyout).

Soucy is younger than Kulikov.

 

[Bazeek]

Based off of Evason talking, he doesn't see Gaudreau being a 'bottom of the roster' guy. Kulikov, Merrill and Goligoski are going to see some time as well.

And what if they don't? Both of them go back to the AHL and they simply roll with the team they have now.

Soucy is younger than Kulikov.

We're drifting from the original point, which was that signing guys like Kulikov, Merill, etc is indicative of Guerin undercutting the moves he made to jettison veterans like Staal, Suter, etc. That's only true if you think these guys are going to actively block out players like Boldy, Rossi and Addison. Certainly I think Guerin wants them in the mix to provide those guys with competition, but part of the appeal is that no one is going to blink at Rossi playing above Gaudreau if he earns that spot. It's a different story with Staal or Koivu or, as we saw in the playoffs, Boldy playing over Parise.

I mean we'll have to see how things actually shake out in camp, but about 90% of the rhetoric you hear coming from Guerin and Evason is meant for the players as much as the general public. They clearly don't want young players thinking that NHL spots will be handed to them, even if they're almost certainly counting on them to step up big this year.

 

[thestonedkoala]

. That's only true if you think these guys are going to actively block out players like Boldy, Rossi and Addison.

And that's part of the problem, because Guerin/Evason kind of did just that last year with Johansson and Cole/Pateryn. And I wouldn't be surprised if Rask blocks out Rossi for the year or if they decide to go with Rau over Boldy.