Bettman visiting Winnipeg to meet with corporate sponsors, host a fireside chat with fans amid declining season ticket sales
- Thread starter MMC
- Start date
Well that settles that!
“We wish we had 32 teams like we do here” or something to that effect from Daly. Bettman just became a superstar today in Winnipeg. Who would have thunk that?
“We wish we had 32 teams like we do here” or something to that effect from Daly. Bettman just became a superstar today in Winnipeg. Who would have thunk that?
MMC
Global Moderator
CaptainUgly
Bronx Bombers
- Apr 22, 2018
- 1,022
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The NHL is smalltime compared to the NFL, NBA, and NCAAF in terms of popularity and revenue. Furthermore, the NHL is facing increasing competition from MLS. They need smaller Canadian markets to survive. Period. End of story.
Ted Hoffman
Done
- Dec 15, 2002
- 29,289
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Using all capital letters is a guaranteed way to get me and others to engage in a discussion about anything you have to say.
That's exactly what a Canadian-hating elitist who's secretly plotting to move every Canada-based team to the U.S. Sun Belt would say.
I know, he doesn't say that, you just have to have the super-duper secret decoder ring to know what he obviously means.
End on a Hinote
Registered Abuser
The hockey fan part of me is happy to hear what was said, but the former Vancouver Grizzlies fan in me is saying, "Deja vu?".
Harvey Birdman
…Need some law books, with pictures this time…
Your post reminded me of another topic I was part of little over a year ago. I don’t believe it was on her I think it was else where. But… All sports are going hurt in the downsize that inevitable over the next 15-20 years. As the baby boomers go into elderly ages and/or pass on. There exists no demographic their size ever in history to replace them. My point with this will be a smart owner or ownership in some sport I’m not sure which. Whether it be the NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, etc will build some sort of super experience venue that seats minimal allowable seating. Because all these massive sports venues are going to become more and more empty as the baby boomers go off into the sunset. All of Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z are all smaller than the baby boom generation. There simply will not be enough fans to fill all of these stadiums and arenas. So I feel like the arena and park of the future will be smaller more higher quality venues. More in house activities, dinning, sporting events combined with other events like live music or movie releases. Because within a decade everyone in media entertainment not just sports but all entertainment will be trying to bring in a small pool a fans simply by demographic alone. And there is no changing that aspect.
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MMC
Global Moderator
Headshot77
Bad Photoshopper
I don't necessarily think that baby boomers aging out of sports fandom is the detrimental thing. Overall the human population is growing still, albeit at a slower rate. I'm willing to assume that every NHL market right now has more people in it today than it did in 2000. The pool of *potential* fans is larger than ever. The challenge will just be getting millennials and Gen Z to convert to fandom.
Personally I don't think it's that hard to do. Speaking as a millennial, young people are hopelessly addicted to various forms of electronic entertainment. Sports competes with things like YouTube and TikTok now. So to win over the next generation of fans you gotta put your product out there and make it easy to watch, otherwise kids will literally just watch other people play videogames instead. This means you gotta have the whole league be easily watchable, with no blackouts, ideally on a free-with-ads basis.
Stumbledore
Registered User
Bettman is NOT making threats of relocation. If you want to just make shit up, that's your right. But if you want to be part of a thread discussion, keep up with the facts.
Bettman is NOT making threats of relocation. If you want to just make shit up, that's your right. But if you want to be part of a thread discussion, keep up with the facts.
Bettman said tonight on live TV that his visit to Winnipeg was planned before the idiotic story in the Athletic, part of his attempt to visit most league cities each year. If you want to just make shit up, that's your right. But if you want to be part of a thread discussion, keep up with the facts.If Bettman is actually making a trip to Winnipeg in *February* things must be dire.
AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
- Jul 3, 2009
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I'm not following why the NHL "needs" small Canadian markets to survive. I'm not implying that all 7 teams haven't and won't do well, but large markets with multiple professional teams are churning out huge revenue just fine despite other entertainment options.
Nico Cauzuki
Registered User
Today Jets are a great team so shoudlnt be a problem but in a few years once its time to rebuild thats a different story
Harvey Birdman
…Need some law books, with pictures this time…
It’s not a good or a bad thing. That wasn’t my point. It was I think that at some point some switched on owner is going to realize the size of these venues in terms of seat capacity need to get smaller but the draw of the venue get larger. Imagine a place in one whole day or a weekend you could pay a price that got you food vouchers to on site restaurants, discounted passes to another pregame entertainment, a discount at the merch shop, ending with the sporting event. With the largest generation being removed from the playing board some owner is going to see that the only way to fill to capacity is to make the hockey match, basketball game, football game, etc. The cap stone to a larger offering. I’m a millennial also take it I guess an older one. And my favorite thing used to be going to the movie theaters. I used to see 4-6 films a year without fail sometimes more. Now I maybe see one and it’s only at a theater that does what I described above. I buy the ticket to the movie but I get a discount special at an attached bar for X amount of drinks, also get a discount on concessions, as well as a voucher for a discount at a restaurant within walking distance of the theater for after the movie. This is the only way I’ll go to the movies anymore, it’s something that becomes the entire evening and not just simply the movie. I see sports venues of the future having to become their own similar version of this to be able to pack the house. And sports venues could do this at a much larger scale and make it all in house if they were designed properly with an attached hotel, casino, music/theater venue, etc. Just my opinion of where it’s all going.
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Defenders of underperforming southern markets often site the "other entertainment options" as a reason why their teams aren't doing well. Also, "small Canadian markets" have other entertainment options as well. They may not have other professional sports teams but there are things to do?
Who is underperforming? The Ducks, Sharks, and Yotes attendance is proportional to how they're doing on the ice. The rest are doing better than fine.
Dude, the comment was clearly tongue-in-cheek. Like you even quoted the sarcasm emoji... Relax.
AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
- Jul 3, 2009
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Haven't really seen any posts about underperforming markets struggling due to other sports in town, but I'll take your word for it.
Overall, I'm just wanting to understand the reasoning behind why that poster says the NHL "needs small Canadian markets to survive". The Canadian markets do great, but I'm just trying to understand why he says this.
I don't think the NHL *needs* small Canadian markets to survive. I also don't think it *needs* southern markets to survive. I do think they probably need *both* to attain the overall profile for the sport that the owners want. But a lot of sports fans (not just hockey fans) use the word "survive" hyperbolically to stand in place for some plateau they've set in their minds. An all-Canadian NHL would *survive* just fine. As would an all-American NHL.
All my life I've been told the CFL wouldn't survive much longer. It's still around today. Now we can argue how about much it does or doesn't thrive but if it can survive this long, surely a NHL without smaller Canadian markets would also.
Stumbledore
Registered User
I'm 78. You think I can tell one damned emoji from another?
Yukon Joe
Registered User
I've been banging my spoon about the generational change for sports for a little while.
So, when baby boomers were growing up (in Canada at least) you had like three channels: CBC, CBC French, and CTV. On Saturday night, Hockey Night in Canada was destination viewing. It made an entire generation into hockey fans.
As a Gen Xer - now we had cable. You had more options - maybe a dozen or so channels. And yes TSN was one of them (and HNIC was still a thing) so plenty of people still became hockey fans, but it didn't have the same cultural urgency.
When I look at my kids - they're of the streaming age. They can have any of a million of shows on at their fingerprints. Of my three boys, one is still a huge NHL fan (probably because he plays hockey), one is sort of a casual fan (he also plays hockey), and the third couldn't care less about hockey.
dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
The thing with southern markets is, the league may not need them (after all, the league survived from 1917 to 1972, and again from 1980 to 1992 without them) to survive, but the league wants them. The league is keenly aware that folks, such as my parents, move south all the time. By expanding to southern markets, they not only make those who've moved/spend significant time in the south happy, they also grow interest levels among the population. Growing that interest creates new fans who spend money on the product. It's that hope that keeps the league coming back, and it's largely proving to be successful if the organization is run the right way.
With regards to small markets, the problem is the league is far more corporate today than it ever was before. Remember when there were no sponsors on the boards? When corporate logos weren't projected onto the ice or on the glass? How some teams now sport a corporate logon on their sweaters? That's one place where the knock against small markets come in. The smaller the market, the fewer the local businesses that can afford to sponsor the team, and the fewer corporate season tickets get bought up. That doesn't even consider whether the local fans can afford a NHL ticket package. Some can, sure, but if the small market arena seats 14k, that leaves very little room for error, If it seats 18k, it's still a small market, and they may have even more problems filling the barn at NHL prices.
Know that I'm not arguing against small markets. I think it'd be great to see a city like Halifax or Saskatoon join the league. But the argument against those markets is at a sports business level as a whole, as corporate involvement is heavily depended on by the leagues and its member teams, be it NBA, NHL, MLB, etc.
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
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I think it's pretty likely that Arizona and Winnipeg get moved, Atlanta and Houston being likely destinations. And that would be it as far as relocation goes. The costs to run an NHL franchise and the dollars coming into a place like Winnipeg don't add up well. Dunno if enterprise value is increasing but that's a non-liquid asset until you sell, the real dollars coming in and out are going to matter a lot. Losses can't be eaten forever unless there's a sovereign wealth oil fund backstopping it all that is using the team more as a sportwashing marketing exercise and vanity project. I get the Real Estate piece, but that's also largely a bit of a myth that you need the pro sport franchise to make a whole slew of other things profitable, the arena can still be used (the AHL team is already there) and surrounding areas still built up without the giant NHL franchise cost center.
Thomson is very wealthy but also only a 1/2 owner and Chipman remains the face of TNSE. Is there any real indication Thomson will buy an increasingly larger stake in TNSE with capital infusions and is willing to eat losses indefinitely in that venture as part of a vanity project? What about his heir apparents (7 Children from 4 different partners, which likely creates a messy estate plan)?
Thomson is very wealthy but also only a 1/2 owner and Chipman remains the face of TNSE. Is there any real indication Thomson will buy an increasingly larger stake in TNSE with capital infusions and is willing to eat losses indefinitely in that venture as part of a vanity project? What about his heir apparents (7 Children from 4 different partners, which likely creates a messy estate plan)?
AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
- Jul 3, 2009
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I've seen a bunch of posts saying that there are too many things to do in places like Miami, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc for people to go to the hockey games if the team isn't a contender.
The Canadian small markets are where a lot of players come from. Participation has decreased in youth hockey in the QC area in the almost 30 years since the Nords left. That hasn't been offset by southern markets. You can site Auston Matthews all you want. It's one guy.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
So about David Thomson. You'll often see his net worth listed as $63 billion. But that's not his personal wealth - that's the family wealth. It's all held in trusts. Because David Thomson is not some techbro new money guy - as I've mentioned before he's the Third Baron of Fleet, and the fortune was started with his grandfather. So there's not going to be some big need to sell assets when Thomson passes on.
I don't think there's any reason to think the team is losing money annually - between revenue sharing and the various subsidies the team has (tax abatements, VLTs). The team is after all spending right to the salary cap. Being businessmen I have no doubt that Chipman/Thomson duo would like to make more money, which explains the whole Bettman show last night, but I struggle to see them as a relocation candidate - at least in the short to medium term.
Edit: it's never been disclosed what % of the team each of Chipman and Thomson have. I suspect Thomson is the majority partner while Chipman is just the working face of the organization, but that's just a hunch.
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