Bettman meeting with Ryan Smith, owner of Utah Jazz and Real Salt Lake (upd: Smith asks NHL to open expansion process)

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Tawnos

A guy with a bass
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Yes, it is an option but not if taxpayers have to pay for a new arena. Even with an Olympic games on the horizon the NHL has to start paying its way and that means privately funded arenas.

The NHL and NBA will benefit from an arena used for the Olympics - they should help pay the bills and taxpayers should be left alone.

They have to? No, they really don't. Whether or not they should is a debate, for sure, but it's sort of a moot point. As long as local governments offer incentives to businesses to locate or stay there, the NHL and its teams are going to be looking to take advantage of that. We're already past the point.

It's fine, take the stance that they shouldn't, but they don't have to "start paying their way" because no one will ever make them.
 

Mike Jones

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They have to? No, they really don't. Whether or not they should is a debate, for sure, but it's sort of a moot point. As long as local governments offer incentives to businesses to locate or stay there, the NHL and its teams are going to be looking to take advantage of that. We're already past the point.

It's fine, take the stance that they shouldn't, but they don't have to "start paying their way" because no one will ever make them.
Yeah - they should be paying their bills. They're not a 'common good' so zero tax dollars should be invested in anything they profit from - like new arenas.
 
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Tawnos

A guy with a bass
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Yeah - they should be paying their bills. They're not a 'common good' so zero tax dollars should be invested in anything they tough - like new arenas.

Debatable, but still pretty moot. SLC is going to be spending a lot of taxpayer money to bring the Olympics. This is going to happen. There's no reason for Smith to not be in on that, given that the Jazz will be involved. There's no reason for the NHL to not be in on that, so long as Smith also wants an NHL team.

Also, given that this money is going to be spent... as @KevFu mentioned, it's smarter for SLC to bring Smith in than not.
 

Mike Jones

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Debatable, but still pretty moot. SLC is going to be spending a lot of taxpayer money to bring the Olympics. This is going to happen. There's no reason for Smith to not be in on that, given that the Jazz will be involved. There's no reason for the NHL to not be in on that, so long as Smith also wants an NHL team.

Also, given that this money is going to be spent... as @KevFu mentioned, it's smarter for SLC to bring Smith in than not.
By all means, bring the NHL into SLC. But taxpayers should be demanding that the league and the franchise pay its bills and pay for any new facilities they profit from.
 
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Tawnos

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By all means, bring the NHL into SLC. But taxpayers should be demanding that the league and the franchise pay its bills and pay for any new facilities they profit from.

It's not going to happen. Taxpayers will not demand that. If American politics has shown anything over the last 40 years, it's that they love this kind of stuff.
 

No Fun Shogun

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The thing that can't be understated is how popular that the Jazz are in Utah. They're one of those small, one team markets (shade intended at the MLS) that adores their team, as is the case with Portland and the Blazers and OKC and the Thunder. So the prospect of a better arena for them is genuinely popular.

Couple that with a second team coming in and a seemingly popular Winter Olympics bid (or, at least, not as unpopular as such a thing is in other cities), and there's going to be some pretty solid incentive for public money greasing the wheels even if it's not the most fiscally prudent thing to do.
 

FriendlyGhost92

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It's not going to happen. Taxpayers will not demand that. If American politics has shown anything over the last 40 years, it's that they love this kind of stuff.

Thank God Canadian politicians are much more level headed:

Rogers Place.jpg
 

ponder719

M-M-M-Matvei and the Jett
Jul 2, 2013
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By all means, bring the NHL into SLC. But taxpayers should be demanding that the league and the franchise pay its bills and pay for any new facilities they profit from.

I can't think of more than a handful of examples across American history of taxpayers holding governments accountable for giving away absurd quantities of money to rich pricks. Arenas, tax breaks, absurd contracts, doesn't matter the format, governments largely exist to funnel money to the rich, and in turn, the rich funnel money to the government officials. At least when there's an arena at play, you have a sports team in town to watch; all you get when they funnel money to, say, Amazon or Walmart is a couple years of a backbreaking job before they fire everyone, take a writeoff, and leave your neighborhood blighted and broke.
 

Mike Jones

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It's not going to happen. Taxpayers will not demand that. If American politics has shown anything over the last 40 years, it's that they love this kind of stuff.
They love seeing their tax dollars go into the pockets of billionaires? Maybe us Calgarians should send our Mayor and council to Utah - they love dumping money into the pockets of Flames owners.

Thank God Canadian politicians are much more level headed:

View attachment 813110
Actually the Edmonton example here does include a ticket tax that is large enough to help recover the investment for taxpayers. That's one thing lacking in the Calgary deal.

One advantage of privately funded arenas is that taxpayers benefit from property taxes on these facilities.
 

Mike Jones

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I can't think of more than a handful of examples across American history of taxpayers holding governments accountable for giving away absurd quantities of money to rich pricks. Arenas, tax breaks, absurd contracts, doesn't matter the format, governments largely exist to funnel money to the rich, and in turn, the rich funnel money to the government officials. At least when there's an arena at play, you have a sports team in town to watch; all you get when they funnel money to, say, Amazon or Walmart is a couple years of a backbreaking job before they fire everyone, take a writeoff, and leave your neighborhood blighted and broke.
This is sad because the evidence (Which an economist tried to tell the City of Calgary) is that investing tax dollars in arenas doesn't work. There's simply no point in even doing it.

If teams threaten to move then we have to call their bluff.
 
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ponder719

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This is sad because the evidence (Which an economist tried to tell the City of Calgary) is that investing tax dollars in arenas doesn't work. There's precious little evidence that supports it.
True, but AFAICT, there's precious little evidence supporting any giveaways to corporations. Tax money should be used towards public goods and services, all of which should be vastly better funded than they are, because those services, not corporate giveaways, are what establish a baseline quality of life for communities. Unfortunately, it's far too easy for governments to be swayed by the myth of trickle-down economics, especially when the people who benefit most directly from that myth are the ones best equipped to fund those politicians' re-election campaigns.
 
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Tawnos

A guy with a bass
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They love seeing their tax dollars go into the pockets of billionaires? Maybe us Calgarians should send our Mayor and council to Utah - they love dumping money into the pockets of Flames owners.

That was more or less hyperbole. As @ponder719 pointed out, politicians don't get punished for it. In itself, that's an implicit approval of the tactics.

I've never found the purely fiscal argument for this to be especially persuasive. Yes, economic studies show the taxpayers don't get back their investment... but government is not a business and there are a lot of things they should be doing that don't bring in a surplus. Investment in arts and culture is one of those things, and sports *are* culture, despite the optics feeling a little different on them. A city having a stake in a major piece of the city's identity isn't a bad thing.

Could cities negotiate better deals, including having the arena and development providing other services to the people besides a spot for the team to play? Absolutely they could. Governments should always be striving to do better.

Looking at pure fiscals is a valid point-of-view. It's just not one I agree with.
 

Mike Jones

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True, but AFAICT, there's precious little evidence supporting any giveaways to corporations. Tax money should be used towards public goods and services, all of which should be vastly better funded than they are, because those services, not corporate giveaways, are what establish a baseline quality of life for communities. Unfortunately, it's far too easy for governments to be swayed by the myth of trickle-down economics, especially when the people who benefit most directly from that myth are the ones best equipped to fund those politicians' re-election campaigns.
I agree. Tax dollars should only be spent on goods and services and facilities everybody can access - fire halls, police stations, libraries, schools, hospitals, etc. The billionaires can pay for their own toys. It's too bad our so-called leaders knuckle under to a team's junior varsity threats to leave a market if they don't get their handouts and corporate welfare.
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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I agree. Tax dollars should only be spent on goods and services and facilities everybody can access - fire halls, police stations, libraries, schools, hospitals, etc. The billionaires can pay for their own toys. It's too bad our so-called leaders knuckle under to a team's junior varsity threats to leave a market if they don't get their handouts and corporate welfare.

Billionaires and big corporations could pay for a lot of things. However, as was mentioned above at least with sports teams we get an amenity we enjoy.
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
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Yes, it is an option but not if taxpayers have to pay for a new arena. Even with an Olympic games on the horizon the NHL has to start paying its way and that means privately funded arenas.

The NHL and NBA will benefit from an arena used for the Olympics - they should help pay the bills and taxpayers should be left alone.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the underlying point (municipalities or their residents shouldn't have to pay additional taxes to have a shiny new building), the fact is these decisions are in the hands of the electorate, whether it be a vote on an additional tax to pay for a building, or a local councilperson who votes in favor of such.

Therefore, I would argue the league doesn't have to do anything unless the league itself is constructing these arenas. As we all know, this simply isn't the case. An argument could be made that maybe sports leagues should be responsible for constructing venues in the cities they want to be in, but I also feel like this is a restaurant-sized can of worms that should only be opened once we've used the already large can of worms we already have open.
 

Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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By all means, bring the NHL into SLC. But taxpayers should be demanding that the league and the franchise pay its bills and pay for any new facilities they profit from.

I agree, but it's small in comparison to the amount of money that the city and state are going to burn on the Olympics. The Olympics are the racket to end all rackets, the IOC is basically a cartel.
 

Mike Jones

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Billionaires and big corporations could pay for a lot of things. However, as was mentioned above at least with sports teams we get an amenity we enjoy.
No way. Only people who can afford to enter - which is a few. People forget that in a market like Calgary there are only something like 10% of the people who really give a rip and the rest have to pay for those other people's hobby through our tax dollars.
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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No way. Only people who can afford to enter - which is a few. People forget that in a market like Calgary there are only something like 10% of the people who really give a rip and the rest have to pay for those other people's hobby through our tax dollars.

The City of Calgary also funds the arts. Isn't that just someone's hobby too? As far as 10% I haven't been to Calgary but can't imagine any Canadian NHL market where only 10% of people "give a rip" about hockey.
 

TheLegend

"Just say it 3 times..."
Aug 30, 2009
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This is sad because the evidence (Which an economist tried to tell the City of Calgary) is that investing tax dollars in arenas doesn't work. There's simply no point in even doing it.

If teams threaten to move then we have to call their bluff.

Economists like to cookie cutter everything.

Their reasoning is “X” didn’t work out here, so then it won’t work anywhere else. Even if the financing is completely different from their theoretical models they wrap themselves up with.
 

BMN

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Jun 2, 2021
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It's a sticky wicket because...

...the argument for the arts (and *especially* for libraries) is often "that which enriches us but doesn't command high dollar." Someone critical of funding for arenas but less critical of funding for the rest might say: "Some services that enrich a society are loss leaders. Sports shouldn't be: people pay high dollar for it. If more than 10,000 people are willing to pay $80 to go to a single game that lasts three hours, you'd figure there oughta be a way to make that pay for itself." Especially if a private owner is the one who gets to eventually sell the franchise a great profit while the city keeps paying for the upkeep.

It's tempting to say "paying for a library enriches a culture and so does a major league sports team so they're ethically even," but last I checked the Fortune 500 list wasn't crammed with companies who buy libraries, insist the city upgrade all of the tech, then get all the money when "the library team" is sold.
 
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Headshot77

We saw him heading straight for the mountains
Feb 15, 2015
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I’d rather have the expansion check too, but you have to service your existing franchises’ values. The billionaires know that too, that’s why a few poked their head out last year hoping there was a desperate situation, but when they started the process before with expansion, they expected these dudes to be tripping over each other, and only heard from Vegas and Quebec City. That landscape has changed a bit, but if you leave one franchise to flounder, these guys are sharks. If they’re going to pay the fee, they expect their investment to be maximized, and that is only happening in 31 of the 32 markets. It must be 32 of 32.

They can conference split any way they want by putting Nashville in the east. Despite what they publicly told Quebec City, they don’t give a shit about that.

There’s no indication, yet, that Merulo is interested in being a principal owner in a new market. And he doesn’t seem to be able to establish connections in the one he is in, so how does he have any in a new one? He would still need a pathway to getting a building. So technically, yes. But practically, no, or else he would’ve been doing that already.

They don’t care about bad PR, or else they would’ve ended this years ago.
I view relocating the Coyotes as exactly that, servicing the existing franchises. If you can make a sale of the Coyotes *look* like an 800m-1b transaction by any means, it makes expanding by two teams for $1b each look a lot more reasonable. My main point is that finding a buyer for the Coyotes at a discount will be way easier than finding an Alex Smith.

Can you convince Jody Allen to buy the Yotes for $500mil with some fluff on top to fill out some dates at the Moda Center? Maybe! Can you convince Tillman Fertitta that Houston is above the Mason-Dixon line with a cheapish NHL team? Maybe!

Can you convince them to drop $1b on a brand new team to do the same thing? Probably not.
 

GKJ

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I view relocating the Coyotes as exactly that, servicing the existing franchises. If you can make a sale of the Coyotes *look* like an 800m-1b transaction by any means, it makes expanding by two teams for $1b each look a lot more reasonable. My main point is that finding a buyer for the Coyotes at a discount will be way easier than finding an Alex Smith.

Can you convince Jody Allen to buy the Yotes for $500mil with some fluff on top to fill out some dates at the Moda Center? Maybe! Can you convince Tillman Fertitta that Houston is above the Mason-Dixon line with a cheapish NHL team? Maybe!

Can you convince them to drop $1b on a brand new team to do the same thing? Probably not.
If you can convince them, then you already did. Ryan Smith is right now, and is the only one with plans in motion for securing and owning a new building. Everyone else has been invited to make themselves known and don’t seem to be doing it.
 
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aqib

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I view relocating the Coyotes as exactly that, servicing the existing franchises. If you can make a sale of the Coyotes *look* like an 800m-1b transaction by any means, it makes expanding by two teams for $1b each look a lot more reasonable. My main point is that finding a buyer for the Coyotes at a discount will be way easier than finding an Alex Smith.

Can you convince Jody Allen to buy the Yotes for $500mil with some fluff on top to fill out some dates at the Moda Center? Maybe! Can you convince Tillman Fertitta that Houston is above the Mason-Dixon line with a cheapish NHL team? Maybe!

Can you convince them to drop $1b on a brand new team to do the same thing? Probably not.

If Paul Allen was still alive I would say this was extremely likely. Jody Allen "owns" the teams as executor of his estate, so I don't think she can go buy another team and make the estate bigger.
 

No Fun Shogun

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The thing is that franchise valuations are like a house of cards. Ever since Ballmer overpaid for the Clippers, there's been a major inflation across all leagues.

The NHL has set their expected bottom line for a franchise value at $650 million as of the Seattle expansion. Their ownership is going to be none-too-happy if a team can be bought for a lot less than that amount, nor does it help the league's hopes to get $750m to $1B per future expansion.

Low and high sales set the market. When you see a neighbor sell their similar house for a big profit, good news for your valuation. When a neighbor sells for a big discount, they might as well have just left a flaming bag on your front doorstep.
 
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aqib

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Economists like to cookie cutter everything.

Their reasoning is “X” didn’t work out here, so then it won’t work anywhere else. Even if the financing is completely different from their theoretical models they wrap themselves up with.

There is a group of people in every city that I call the CAVE people. Citizens Against Virtually Everything. If you're upset about sports stadium subsidies wait till you see what big corporations get.

When it comes to economists, Andrew Zimbalist made a name for himself railing against sports subsidies but now he gets hired to do consulting projects FOR sports teams.
 
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