That's really too had as it's taxpayers who always pay for it in the end. The same will be true for us taxpayers in Calgary. We will never recover our investment.
Bettman meeting with Ryan Smith, owner of Utah Jazz and Real Salt Lake (upd: Smith asks NHL to open expansion process)
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KevFu
Registered User
Two words: Winter Olympics.
What makes NHL to Salt Lake City EXTREMELY realistic is that MULTIPLE taxpayer funded venues are going to happen.
If you're already committed to $9+ billion on multiple venues -- including three arenas capable of hosting ice events -- spending an extra billion to make it an NHL facility, and giving it a purpose for the next 30 years after the Olympics isn't wasting taxpayer money. It's actually smarter.
dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
It's entirely possible that the Coyotes move to Utah, but I get the distinct impression the league genuinely wants to expand. Whether Utah is on that list is up in the air. It all really depends on Alex Meruelo and what he decides to do if a barn can't be built in Arizona for whatever reason.
We'll find out soon enough what happens next, whether it be with expansion, relocation of the Coyotes, or both.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
This exactly. The entire thing here is based on the Olympics.
AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
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Bingo. They can copy the '96 Olympic blueprint. The track and field stadium was repurposed and transformed into Turner Field. Since, it's been repurposed again and is now Georgia State's football stadium.
KevFu
Registered User
It's probably not even "an extra billion" to make a Winter Olympics hockey venue an NHL arena.
The back of house and media accommodations for the Olympics are NHL level. It's really only a capacity difference.
The back of house and media accommodations for the Olympics are NHL level. It's really only a capacity difference.
KevFu
Registered User
Here's the main thing that the pro-Quebec crowd (of which I'm one, BTW) needs to come to grips with:
It's NOT "_______ City vs Quebec City" for an expansion team. Every NHL expansion HELPS the efforts of Quebec to get a team back.
The "failure" of bigger, southern markets absolutely will NOT make the NHL say "We're going about this all wrong, we should be looking at places like Quebec." It would make the NHL say (a) we can't be so eager to expand in the future and (b) How can Quebec possibly succeed when it's one-third the size of a market that 'failed.'
Failing raises the bar for expansion. Succeeding lowers it. A successful expansion is going to make the owners want more expansion. SLC and Atlanta joining the NHL is absolutely fantastic news for Quebec.
Because the next city that wants into the NHL, and the NHL wants to add, is almost certainly going to be in the West. (Merging the list of CSA/MSAs for a more true size of markets) -
#8 Houston, #19 San Diego, #20 Portland, #25 San Antonio, #26 Sacramento
The East Top 25 is #15 Orlando, #17 Cleveland and #21 Charlotte. And before I type it you're thinking it: Orlando isn't Tampa, but do we NEED another team in Florida? Ohio and Carolina have the Jackets and Canes!
Virtually any Eastern candidate you can name has a team "next door" and Quebec can build a coalition of support from all the teams who wouldn't want those markets to be a competitor.
Salt Lake, Houston and Atlanta are Quebec's path back to the NHL, not their opponents/obstacles.
It's NOT "_______ City vs Quebec City" for an expansion team. Every NHL expansion HELPS the efforts of Quebec to get a team back.
The "failure" of bigger, southern markets absolutely will NOT make the NHL say "We're going about this all wrong, we should be looking at places like Quebec." It would make the NHL say (a) we can't be so eager to expand in the future and (b) How can Quebec possibly succeed when it's one-third the size of a market that 'failed.'
Failing raises the bar for expansion. Succeeding lowers it. A successful expansion is going to make the owners want more expansion. SLC and Atlanta joining the NHL is absolutely fantastic news for Quebec.
Because the next city that wants into the NHL, and the NHL wants to add, is almost certainly going to be in the West. (Merging the list of CSA/MSAs for a more true size of markets) -
#8 Houston, #19 San Diego, #20 Portland, #25 San Antonio, #26 Sacramento
The East Top 25 is #15 Orlando, #17 Cleveland and #21 Charlotte. And before I type it you're thinking it: Orlando isn't Tampa, but do we NEED another team in Florida? Ohio and Carolina have the Jackets and Canes!
Virtually any Eastern candidate you can name has a team "next door" and Quebec can build a coalition of support from all the teams who wouldn't want those markets to be a competitor.
Salt Lake, Houston and Atlanta are Quebec's path back to the NHL, not their opponents/obstacles.
The NHL and the new Utah franchise need to pay for the hockey arena as they'll be the ones ultimately benefiting from it.
That's an interesting take on it and I think the "next door" part is the important part. The "devil's advocate" argument that "non-traditional" market expansion successes are 'bad' for Quebec City is that "the more the league sees non-trad markets working, the less they'll want to come back to Quebec City and the more they'll go hat-in-hand to......I dunno....Sacramento or something." Which at an uncritical blush makes a degree of sense. But it comes down if the situation can play out as a puzzle in which a Quebec City franchise is a missing piece.
The league may not have a choice. A lot depends on if Arizona can even get land for a new arena.
Ugh, no.
You said: "they picked the best candidates who applied/had the fee."
I said going over all that would get to into the weeds -- i.e. long posts about each bid/market, the why/how, etc., all known info that would be off-topic and rehashed.
They picked OTT & TB because they SAID they would pay the $50M. "Complete bids" = no. Didn't actually have the money, didn't have the arena(s) (TB eventually played where another bid was told they couldn't) and I believe TB didn't even meet the ticket-drive #.
Milwaukee, had the money, arena, subjectively said to have had the best presentation/bid. But indemnity and expansion draft rules, so pulled bid.
Hamilton, had the money, arena. Indemnity payments they couldn't get a firm number from the NHL on as well as the league saying no to payment in installments.
Seattle, Sonics owner tanked the bid but the other partners still had the money, allowed to present but bid wasn't in their names/DOA.
And on and on and those are just cliff notes versions, more with each and more cities/markets/bids/ownership groups, etc. involved. Hence, don't want to get "into the weeds" on it. And that's just that round of expansion.
But "picked best candidates who applied" (no) "who had the fee" (no) and now "can only pick from complete bids" (no, since they picked from incomplete bids) was the overarching point.
KevFu
Registered User
You're not wrong, but the state of Utah and city of Salt Lake are trying to do it the opposite way: Instead of $10 billion in taxpayer money for sports venues that will be used for 14 days in 30 years... use taxpayer money for the 30-year sports venues for pro teams and then use them for the Olympics.
They need to have:
- one venue for Olympic figure skating (Olympic-sized ice)
- one venue for hockey that's near NHL standards (where the medal rounds will be played)
- one venue for hockey group play (could be an AHL kind of venue).
Jazz get a new, elite arena, which has an ice plant for the Olympics. That's gonna happen.
They can use the existing Jazz arena as another venue. It has the ability to make ice, but it's not great for medal-round hockey and it's pretty bad for figure skating. It was dubbed "The Pit" last time because they took out all the seats to fit the Olympic figure skating rink. So that should be the "Hockey Group Play" venue.
So the other new venue is the figure skating place. It's gotta be bigger than your usual AHL arena for Olympic crowds and ice. It also needs high-end, back of house and media accommodations for the Olympics.
You're building 7/8ths of a legit NHL venue regardless. Just spend a little more money and make it a full NHL venue up to elite standards like the Jazz get. It costs an extra $500m or so, but it actually makes the most sense.
KevFu
Registered User
I understand that devil's advocate logic. But that was my "next door" and coalition part.
#1 - Those markets run out. It's Houston as a huge market, and everyone after that is a "medium-sized" one that has competition except San Diego.
#2 - The NBA plays a massive role in which markets can be entered. NBA owners don't want the competition and haven't been lining up to buy second teams. We're talking Salt Lake because the Jazz owner wants in. Houston, Portland, Charlotte and Orlando aren't champing a the bit. (And aren't really dominating the NBA or attendance leaderboards).
#3 - NHL owners might want to expand for a big fee, but they don't want to expand in their own back yards. When you take out all the "backyard" markets, like Orlando and Charlotte, who's left?
KevFu
Registered User
Oh. That's my bad. I think I jumped in and replied to your post without properly connecting that part to my "the mistake was not pausing expansion to account for relocation" comment.
I just meant the Phase 2 teams (MIN, ATL, NSH, CBJ). Because obviously the first phase was done before the relocations.
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
The organizations who profit and benefit from these new facilities should pay the bill and leave the taxpayers alone. Calgary mayor and council should have done that but couldn't manage the obvious decision.
Even there. Can't act like there was the four they picked and Hampton Roads (and OKC) were leftovers so, they nailed the process!
Also can't act like the four picked were from the jump "complete bids" and had to be picked because they were the only options.
-Hampton Roads didn't make it past the first cuts, along with Raleigh & Hamilton. Houston was the other finalist w/OKC. Won't go on about that because I know you've posted about HOU before and have an understanding of the 3 groups there and how that was botched.
-Columbus had Lamar Hunt, then didn't, then lawsuit, in-between that arena tax vote failed. It was "over" but Bettman/NHL gave them hope -and worked with market, not something they did with ALL others to "make it work"- with a deadline to figure it out. Quickly got arena plan with lease that was going to make them be a money-loser, but at least they'd have a team. Good business, ha.
And again, brevity versions and not going into all markets. So again, "they picked the best candidates who applied/had the fee" leaves a lot to be desired as a statement on "90s expansion" as you originally stated. Arguably better markets applied, and those markets had (or in 1992 expansion case, actually had) the fee, too.
90s expansion was a lot more of a mess than "they added too many teams too quick .." which you agree with "..but at least they added the best markets and the markets that could pay the fee" which is ... I'll just leave it at, no.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Hawerchuk was known to quite a few fans. There are Winnipeggers who followed the team to Arizona and many still do.
That said.... the only officially retired number for the Coyotes is Shane Doan's. Those early Jets players were given honorable status because it would have been wrong to leave them out because the team was now in a different city.
Found out a few days ago that there was some talk about sending the original Jets history back to Winnipeg but I'm not sure how far that got.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
But just a few days ago you were extolling about SLC being a good opportunity to solve the Coyotes problem.
I figured you hadn't realized yet that SLC was being Olympics driven and that public funding was going to be a part of it. How much remains to be seen.
I think it was @KevFu above who pointed out that repurposing the facilities post-Olympics would be a key thing here. It solves a lot of issues for Smith getting a new arena for the Jazz and adding an NHL franchise to go with it (whether it be expansion or other).
Headshot77
We saw him heading straight for the mountains
I would assume that the NHL wouldn't want to go "waste" Alex Smith on a relocation. By that I mean, this is a motivated billionaire willing to pay a $1B expansion fee. Likewise there's a similar group in Atlanta (presumably, although they are much less vocal). That's your $2 billion expansion to 34 right there. Where are you going to find another Western conference billionaire with several new buildings and an appetite for hockey?
If you relocate the Coyotes to SLC you've just wasted $1b in expansion money and replaced it with some sham sale of the Coyotes that looks bigger than it actually is. Like a $500 million franchise evaluation (directly paid to Meurello so no profit for the other 31 owners) with a large relocation fee to get somewhere in the $800m-$1b range. Way less non-hockey revenue gets put in the system that way.
I anticipate that the Coyotes get unceremoniously shoved into a western market we aren't really discussing right now (Portland, Houston, Austin, San Diego, Milwaukee, etc.) if the NHL brass have decided that enough is enough. Then you'll get #33 SLC in 2025 since they have a temp venue. Then #34 ATL happens in 2027 since they have no venue and the NHL will want to space the expansion drafts out.
If you relocate the Coyotes to SLC you've just wasted $1b in expansion money and replaced it with some sham sale of the Coyotes that looks bigger than it actually is. Like a $500 million franchise evaluation (directly paid to Meurello so no profit for the other 31 owners) with a large relocation fee to get somewhere in the $800m-$1b range. Way less non-hockey revenue gets put in the system that way.
I anticipate that the Coyotes get unceremoniously shoved into a western market we aren't really discussing right now (Portland, Houston, Austin, San Diego, Milwaukee, etc.) if the NHL brass have decided that enough is enough. Then you'll get #33 SLC in 2025 since they have a temp venue. Then #34 ATL happens in 2027 since they have no venue and the NHL will want to space the expansion drafts out.
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GKJ
Global Moderator
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Who is making themselves known in these other western markets that would also be able to take the team as soon as next season? It may have only been a week, but the league just uncharacteristically solicited everyone to make themselves known. Ryan Smith has been doing this for a year.
No evidence either that they want to space out the expansion drafts. They would be happy to take that money as soon as possible and get to the next expansion phase.
Headshot77
We saw him heading straight for the mountains
Meurelo doesn't even need to sell to relocate technically. Maybe he relocates the team and retains ownership in a new city. At the end of the day you'd hope some other names come out of the woodwork and I can't promise that any will. But there's options. As far as a clean expansion by two teams I have nothing against that either. Scheduling with 33 teams would be a nightmare.
Just to expand on the finance aspect. $2b/32 is $62.5 million. If you expand to SLC and ATL each owner gets that put directly in their pocket. You also have a clean 17/17 conference split.
Alternatively let's say that SLC is used as a relief valve and Alex Smith buys the team for $500m with a $300m relocation fee. Then you can't cleanly expand to Atlanta since there's no western market ownership group to balance it. The owners only get $9.375m in this case. If I'm an NHL owner, I don't really give a damn about the bad PR of the Coyotes I'd rather have that sweet expansion check.
OR, if you punt the Coyotes to another market then you get both the $62.5m from expansion and the $9.375m from relocation. The plan I have outlined is the most profitable for the existing owners which is why I suspect it's what'll go down.
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GKJ
Global Moderator
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I’d rather have the expansion check too, but you have to service your existing franchises’ values. The billionaires know that too, that’s why a few poked their head out last year hoping there was a desperate situation, but when they started the process before with expansion, they expected these dudes to be tripping over each other, and only heard from Vegas and Quebec City. That landscape has changed a bit, but if you leave one franchise to flounder, these guys are sharks. If they’re going to pay the fee, they expect their investment to be maximized, and that is only happening in 31 of the 32 markets. It must be 32 of 32.
They can conference split any way they want by putting Nashville in the east. Despite what they publicly told Quebec City, they don’t give a shit about that.
There’s no indication, yet, that Merulo is interested in being a principal owner in a new market. And he doesn’t seem to be able to establish connections in the one he is in, so how does he have any in a new one? He would still need a pathway to getting a building. So technically, yes. But practically, no, or else he would’ve been doing that already.
They don’t care about bad PR, or else they would’ve ended this years ago.
Yes, it is an option but not if taxpayers have to pay for a new arena. Even with an Olympic games on the horizon the NHL has to start paying its way and that means privately funded arenas.
The NHL and NBA will benefit from an arena used for the Olympics - they should help pay the bills and taxpayers should be left alone.
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