Proposal: Bertuzzi & Hronek for Cirelli & Sergachev

[abbbaron]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. We've seen plenty of their players resign for under market value to stay with TB. Not saying its guaranteed but I could easily see both of them taking ~1+ million less AVV to stay with a team that is competitive each year.

Go back and look at past bridge deals for Tampa's core players. Since they started looking dangerous around 2014, they've been deliberately structured in a way that sets the stage for what those players can expect as starting points in their next contract/extension that covers UFA years. You won't find an example of core Tampa player signing on for less than the salary of the last year of their bridge contract; they're always gotten a bump up on their next contract.

 

[JTBF81]

Setting their expectations at +7.2mil and then trying to lowball them for +1mil less would be a great way to burn bridges. You're not going to be able to buy any UFA years from Cirelli or Sergachev @ 6-6.5mil

And that's your opinion. Their qualifying offers are 5.76, neither of them are likely to get more than ~6.5 in Tampa. If they want some number like that, then moves will be made. Neither player is worth more than 6.5 really, and has been shown in the past, just because other teams make poor salary decisions with players not worth what they got, doesn't mean Tampa will be making those same mistakes. You can spin this trade as being good for Tampa all you like, but it's not. From both a positional value to actual contract value standpoint, Tampa has no reason to do this.

They will qualify them for close to the 5.76,and negotiate from there. If Serg's camp comes out demanding laughable 8+ numbers and Brisebois can't get them to an actual reasonable number, oh well, there won't be any shortage of teams interested. I expect Brisebois will look to get their extensions in place as soon as possible after this season to avoid contract issues next offseason(and several of Tampa's players have signed their long-term deals with a year left on their bridges, so it wouldn't be surprising to see at least a couple of these guys do the same).

Most in Tampa realize that Palat has a decent chance of walking or that he'll be re-signed and Killorn traded this offseason. What Tampa won't be doing is moving 2 of their young core pieces for a worse defenseman and a winger(albeit a good one) that doesn't fill any hole they have(without creating a bigger one elsewhere) nor provides any meaningful cap relief. Bertuzzi isn't re-signing in Tampa for any discount as a ufa, and I'd guess the team wouldn't want to deal with any of the possible vaccine issues he may bring either.

Tampa won't be "burning any bridges" in negotiations either, as all 3 of these players have been with the team a while and understand both the cap situation and how the team handles contracts. I'm sure there may be some back and forth over the final numbers and details, but if they want to stay with Tampa, they will knowing they'll still receive a large amount of money and continue to be part of a great team and organization. If their primary goal is just making as much as humanly possible regardless of where they are, sure, I'm sure some team could OS them out of Tampa. I don't see it happening as again, if JBB can't make it work(likely this Sunmer/Fall), he'll trade Serg for multiple picks/ready to go ELC types, which also helps Tampa both now and for the future. The trade isn't good on Tampa's end for multiple reasons, and since Brisebois is a good GM, can't see him ever doing something like this.

 

[samsagat]

Bertuzzi is 26.

Untill now, he's been a 50ish pts player.

He's actually probably in his career season.

Furthermore, it's only half season.

Considering his present numbers like it's his norm and that his value is the one of a career ppg player, like some are doing here, is a little exaggerated as far as I'm concerned.

 

[bert]

13 15 28 for Cirelli
2 20 22 for Sergachev

4 19 23 for Hronek
22 18 40 for Bertuzzi

Cirelli and Sergachev don't even cover the goals lost by Bertuzzi alone. It's an easy pass from Detroit who is struggling with goal scoring as it is. Taking away one of their top 2 goal scorers to do a moderate upgrade on Hronek for not even a right-shot dman when we have Edvinsson coming in the next year to take one of our top 2 LD spots.

Just not a good trade and one that Yzerman certainly wouldn't entertain.

If you actually think the way to measure these players only is based on their production fine by me but thats not how it works. Secondly if you dont understand where these players are slotting and the roles they have, have at it. Thirdly you have cherry picked a statistically specific period of time and havent taken a larger body of work into it. 4th Sergachev plays both sides and is a legit top 2 d man that can carry a pair and play in all situations.

I like Bertuzzi alot I am a big fan unlike many of your fellow wings fans who post in this thread. However he is a winger, is older than Cirelli doesnt play center and isnt nearly as good defensively. Then you take into the wild card scenario where they play a Canadian team in the playoffs and he cant travel. I think he has more value than Cirelli but not by alot. Sergachev is the most valuable asset in the deal, the difference between him and Hronek is not made up between Bertuzzi and Cirelli. I am a neutral fan some very good players in this deal but as you can see by all the replies you are in the minority here.

 

[bert]

Or, I was arguing against Bertuzzi+Larkin carrying Raymond. There's a whole lot of room in between before it becomes an argument about Raymond carrying the others..

The premise of the argument was that Raymond is not playing with better players than Stutzle and Zegras. So which one is it?! Bertuzzi is an absolute stud in my opinion. But you didnt seem to think so in that thread. Now he is a 70 point player before you said he was a 40 point player. If you are going to post here at least be consistent.

 

[izlez]

Bertuzzi is 26.

Untill now, he's been a 50ish pts player.

He's actually probably in his career season.

Furthermore, it's only half season.

Considering his present numbers like it's his norm and that his value is the one of a career ppg player, like some are doing here, is a little exaggerated as far as I'm concerned.

Feel free to look at his last 82 games. or 100 games. Or 150 games. Or 164 games.

You're really stretching to downplay him here.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

I don't get why every Detroit proposal is them trying to trade Bertuzzi 1 for 1 for a significant downgrade. Has he said he doesn't want to be a Red Wing? I would never trade him if he was on my favorite team, not that we've had anyone quite as good in my lifetime.

People posting trade proposals on HFBoards want to play real life NHL 2k22. They drastically overvalue their own players, undervalue everyone else, and refuse to look at the actual realities of the teams.

Cirelli doesn't meet a need for Detroit, and Bertuzzi doesn't meet a need for Tampa. Cirelli is, at best, a 50-60 point C while playing on the deepest team in the league. He would have 0 offensive support on the Wings and he would age out before they are good, just like Larkin and Bert. Tampa Bay doesn't need more scoring, or toughness. Tampa Bay can sit on their roster as it is and win the cup.

Sergachev is far better than Hronek. It's a bad trade, and cap retention doesn't make it a good trade. Tampa has proven for 3 straight years that they will figure out a way to get out from under any cap issues. They aren't going to make shit trades because of the cap.

Detroit wants picks, not roster players. If they trade Bertuzzi it's because they are planning on extending the rebuild another 3-4 years and are going to build around Raymond\Seider.

It's a bad trade all around. Detroit doesn't even want Tampa Bay picks since they will in all certainty be picking somewhere between 28-32 in the first round. If Detroit trades Bertuzzi it will be to a lower seeded team that wants to make a playoff push, and will end up picking high teens\low 20s.

If you really want to make a Detroit-Tampa trade, offer Hronek with 50% retention for their first round pick this year and second round pick next year. A 40 point defenseman at 2.2\year until 2024 for two picks is fair. Tampa can play him on the third pair and PP and he'll score 10-40-50 a year.

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

If you really want to make a Detroit-Tampa trade, offer Hronek with 50% retention for their first round pick this year and second round pick next year. A 40 point defenseman at 2.2\year until 2024 for two picks is fair. Tampa can play him on the third pair and PP and he'll score 10-40-50 a year.

We don't have a 2nd round pick this year or next year and even 2.2M isn't something we could easily accommodate.

 

[golffuul]

If you actually think the way to measure these players only is based on their production fine by me but thats not how it works. Secondly if you dont understand where these players are slotting and the roles they have, have at it. Thirdly you have cherry picked a statistically specific period of time and havent taken a larger body of work into it. 4th Sergachev plays both sides and is a legit top 2 d man that can carry a pair and play in all situations.

I like Bertuzzi alot I am a big fan unlike many of your fellow wings fans who post in this thread. However he is a winger, is older than Cirelli doesnt play center and isnt nearly as good defensively. Then you take into the wild card scenario where they play a Canadian team in the playoffs and he cant travel. I think he has more value than Cirelli but not by alot. Sergachev is the most valuable asset in the deal, the difference between him and Hronek is not made up between Bertuzzi and Cirelli. I am a neutral fan some very good players in this deal but as you can see by all the replies you are in the minority here.

Let's look at this from a better perspective, then.

If Detroit were to offer Suter for Cirelli with Detroit throwing in a kicker and removing the whole Sergachev/Hronek portion, then we would be talking more along the line of apples to apples. And that would be a straight-up downgrade for Tampa unless the kicker was REALLY good. But a trade involving Bertuzzi and Cirelli has all the benefit to Tampa, and almost zero for Detroit. Detroit needs to add a 2nd C but not rid itself of goal-scoring, or else the 2C would be useless for us as he would have no one to pass to who can finish at an NHL level. So when I used the stats for scoring, it was on purpose to show that the goal scoring was what was needed more for Detroit. To me, it's a terrible trade for both teams, and I tried to keep it as simple as possible and keep it from a Detroit perspective. But Tampa to rid itself of a good center to not gain a center in return hurts Tampa. Detroit to trade away a heart and soul goal scorer for a Center who would then be neutered because he lacks the goal scorers on his wing to be effective, hurts Detroit.

The Sergachev/Hronek part of the deal can never be reconciled, IMO.

So Detroit, still, says no to the deal because we lose too much scoring and the center we get in return doesn't help make up enough for the loss.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

We don't have a 2nd round pick this year or next year and even 2.2M isn't something we could easily accommodate.

Then there is absolutely no reason for Detroit and Tampa Bay to be trade partners.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The premise of the argument was that Raymond is not playing with better players than Stutzle and Zegras. So which one is it?! Bertuzzi is an absolute stud in my opinion. But you didnt seem to think so in that thread. Now he is a 70 point player before you said he was a 40 point player. If you are going to post here at least be consistent.

You're mixing a lot of stuff up I can tell, most of that is definitely not stuff I've said or even been in discussions about.
Bottom line that everyone should be able to agree on is that good players are helped by playing with good players, and since you obviously don't think Raymond is a good player - shouldn't Bertuzzi be an even better player if he was traded to Tampa?

 

[wingfan]

As a Wings fan it'd probably be more like Bert/Hronek/2022 or 2023 1st for the package of Cirelli/Sergachev.. I love Bert and think he's a hell of a player and Hronek is a solid 4/2nd PP RD that's had to play above his pay grade for the better part of 4 seasons but the package of Cirelli and Sergachev together tilts this pretty heavily in Detroit's favor.