OT: Bears & NFL Talk 95

[TLEH]

With a quarterback who can make plays with his legs, it basically wipes 75% of all QB's who played far enough back to be able to view their career arc. Randall Cunningham fits your request and really that's about the only style of QB that is a valid comparison. Jake Plummer also evolved once he went to Denver. Drew Bledsoe? Not even near the same type of QB, so asking if he can become a statue who only relies on hitting route trees and not running at all is an entirely different style that no one would want from Fields anyway. Numbers won't show it, but Vick evolved into a more traditional QB when he was no longer the fastest guy on the field and defenses evolved to cover such a wildly different type of QB.

Point is, you're asking for historical data to compare what was expected of traditional pocket passers (high completion percent) and applying it to someone who in the best case you wouldn't want to be a pocket passer anyway as it would devalue what he offers. He can win a game going 10-25 if he also has a lot of quality rushing attempts and is gashing defenses with a few runs to keep the defense honest. He's never going to be 27-32 350, 3 TD's, 1 INT.

I'm not asking for a stylistic comparison. I'm asking for any comparison.

NFL SB Winning QBs last 10 years.

Mahomes
Stafford
Tom
Mahomes
Tom
Foles
Peyton
R. Wilson
Flacco
E. Manning
A. Rodgers

Not like it takes some athletic freak to play the position. I think Jalen Hurts is a good comparison when it comes to Fields and what he could be on a great team.. But the Bears aren't the Eagles. I'd rather be a team like the Chiefs or Patriots are/were and get elite QB play and use that to overcome your deficiencies, rather than have an amazing team and hope your QB is good enough. A lot harder to do.

 

[Clownish]

I'm not asking for a stylistic comparison. I'm asking for any comparison.

NFL SB Winning QBs last 10 years.

Mahomes
Stafford
Tom
Mahomes
Tom
Foles
Peyton
R. Wilson
Flacco
E. Manning
A. Rodgers

Not like it takes some athletic freak to play the position. I think Jalen Hurts is a good comparison when it comes to Fields and what he could be on a great team.. But the Bears aren't the Eagles. I'd rather be a team like the Chiefs or Patriots are/were and get elite QB play and use that to overcome your deficiencies, rather than have an amazing team and hope your QB is good enough. A lot harder to do.

Well yeah, I'd rather have Brady or Mahomes and figure the rest out, but those QB's aren't really available. Sheesh.

I think coordinators haven't really figured out (or evolved their philosophy enough) to take someone like Fields or Anthony Richardson or any other QB who lacks accuracy but has unreal athletic skills and make an NFL offense work for them. Maybe this is where some college QB whisperer guru can get promoted and work his magic to become the next Andy Reid.

 

[TLEH]

Well yeah, I'd rather have Brady or Mahomes and figure the rest out, but those QB's aren't really available. Sheesh.

I think coordinators haven't really figured out (or evolved their philosophy enough) to take someone like Fields or Anthony Richardson or any other QB who lacks accuracy but has unreal athletic skills and make an NFL offense work for them. Maybe this is where some college QB whisperer guru can get promoted and work his magic to become the next Andy Reid.

They certainly aren't available if you don't try. Having the first overall pick in a draft like this doesn't come around very often. Thats the point. Is it really worth the risk passing on this level of QB draft for a guy who hasn't exactly shown you consistent NFL QB play from the pocket (which is how you win).

Also its not like athletic QBs are new in the NFL. Vick, Kap, RG3, Mariota, Lamar, Hurts, Kyler.

Staying healthy is difficult. You can't just run your QB 10-12 times a game against NFL defenders. Its just not sustainable.

 

[Clownish]

They certainly aren't available if you don't try. Having the first overall pick in a draft like this doesn't come around very often. Thats the point. Is it really worth the risk passing on this level of QB draft for a guy who hasn't exactly shown you consistent NFL QB play from the pocket (which is how you win).

Also its not like athletic QBs are new in the NFL. Vick, Kap, RG3, Mariota, Lamar, Hurts, Kyler.

Staying healthy is difficult. You can't just run your QB 10-12 times a game against NFL defenders. Its just not sustainable.

Your entire premise is "unless someone can convince me that Fields is Brady or Mahomes, then toss him and take someone who no one can say what exactly HE is capable of becoming". Either way, the Bears need WAY more than upgrades at every position and a competent group of leadership before they can even begin to worry about how far in the playoffs their QB can get them.

 

[TLEH]

Your entire premise is "unless someone can convince me that Fields is Brady or Mahomes, then toss him and take someone who no one can say what exactly HE is capable of becoming". Either way, the Bears need WAY more than upgrades at every position and a competent group of leadership before they can even begin to worry about how far in the playoffs their QB can get them.

That's quite the hyperbole in the first sentence. My statement was that if you have an opportunity to draft a guy with the talent that Williams has, you don't pass it up because you have a guy you might be able to win with if you have an elite team everywhere else.

Plenty of people who have been around the NFL for years have stated that Caleb Williams is "different" (including the guy who also scouted and was apart of the Bears drafting Fields).

Just two weeks ago the entire town was out on Fields but because he has two good games in a row its somehow wipes away all the terrible play from the first four? He still showed a lot of the same problems in both tapes against Washington and Denver, they just didn't take advantage. That throw to Moore at the end of the game could have easily went the other way for 6 due to how late he threw that ball. Great placement to get away with it.

 

[Pez68]

With a quarterback who can make plays with his legs, it basically wipes 75% of all QB's who played far enough back to be able to view their career arc. Randall Cunningham fits your request and really that's about the only style of QB that is a valid comparison. Jake Plummer also evolved once he went to Denver. Drew Bledsoe? Not even near the same type of QB, so asking if he can become a statue who only relies on hitting route trees and not running at all is an entirely different style that no one would want from Fields anyway. Numbers won't show it, but Vick evolved into a more traditional QB when he was no longer the fastest guy on the field and defenses evolved to cover such a wildly different type of QB.

Point is, you're asking for historical data to compare what was expected of traditional pocket passers (high completion percent) and applying it to someone who in the best case you wouldn't want to be a pocket passer anyway as it would devalue what he offers. He can win a game going 10-25 if he also has a lot of quality rushing attempts and is gashing defenses with a few runs to keep the defense honest. He's never going to be 27-32 350, 3 TD's, 1 INT.

Well, except when he is...

Let's not forget that Fields in his first couple seasons had absolutely NOTHING to work with. At all. The situation he came into included an offense completely devoid of talent, a brutally bad offensive line, and a shit OC. I'm STILL not sold on Getsy being a competent OC. I think the Bears coaching is still a problem.

It is the absolute worst possible position to put a young QB into. OF COURSE he struggled. I don't think you would have found a single QB on the planet that didn't struggle playing for the Bears over the last two seasons.

Let's see how this season plays out and go from there.

 

[Clownish]

That's quite the hyperbole in the first sentence. My statement was that if you have an opportunity to draft a guy with the talent that Williams has, you don't pass it up because you have a guy you might be able to win with if you have an elite team everywhere else.

Plenty of people who have been around the NFL for years have stated that Caleb Williams is "different" (including the guy who also scouted and was apart of the Bears drafting Fields).

Just two weeks ago the entire town was out on Fields but because he has two good games in a row its somehow wipes away all the terrible play from the first four? He still showed a lot of the same problems in both tapes against Washington and Denver, they just didn't take advantage. That throw to Moore at the end of the game could have easily went the other way for 6 due to how late he threw that ball. Great placement to get away with it.

The hyperbole caused you to miss the point which is the second sentence. It doesn't matter if the Bears are choosing between Joe Montana and Tom Brady until they have something resembling a competent offense to help any quarterback succeed. However, they also need a solid defense for when the offense sputters, and competent leadership to do something other than spin their wheels. Hype rankings and opinions on what Caleb Williams can be mean nothing until all of that other stuff is settled.

Well, except when he is...

Sure, he CAN be, but if they are expecting that as a default stat line...

 

[Pez68]

The hyperbole caused you to miss the point which is the second sentence. It doesn't matter if the Bears are choosing between Joe Montana and Tom Brady until they have something resembling a competent offense to help any quarterback succeed. However, they also need a solid defense for when the offense sputters, and competent leadership to do something other than spin their wheels. Hype rankings and opinions on what Caleb Williams can be mean nothing until all of that other stuff is settled.


Sure, he CAN be, but if they are expecting that as a default stat line...

It was more tongue in cheek than anything. Those type of stat lines over multiple seasons typically represent a hall of fame QB.

 

[ClydeLee]

You know who a guy is after just two seasons in the NFL? Because that's all 33 starts is. I don't think that is true, and QBs are taking longer and longer to develop in the NFL nowadays.

Because some reason teams and fans want guys to play right away and the only guy who has significantly grown with no real sit and develop time is Josh Allen. Even many others are guys we see bounce up and down in ability.

Fields we see trying to get anticipating throes down. Last year he was redoing footwork and some throwing mechanics. All of that should of been prime key focus his rookie year. Now it's fair to say could Nagys staff even help him there, but all that's needed.

I'm all for keeping Fields next year and drafting Williams if Carolina gets thr team that pick. He shouldn't be rushed either. He has Fields like habits to hold the ball too long and might need to adjust some mechanics to hit his elite ability

 

[TLEH]

Because some reason teams and fans want guys to play right away and the only guy who has significantly grown with no real sit and develop time is Josh Allen. Even many others are guys we see bounce up and down in ability.

Fields we see trying to get anticipating throes down. Last year he was redoing footwork and some throwing mechanics. All of that should of been prime key focus his rookie year. Now it's fair to say could Nagys staff even help him there, but all that's needed.

I'm all for keeping Fields next year and drafting Williams if Carolina gets thr team that pick. He shouldn't be rushed either. He has Fields like habits to hold the ball too long and might need to adjust some mechanics to hit his elite ability

I would be fine with keeping Fields and taking Williams. But thats a lot of stress to add to your organization.

 

[piteus]

Fields has thrown for over 300 yards once in his 33 starts. I think that you know who a guy is after 33 starts.

In no way am I comparing Fields to Brady, but Brady threw for 2800 yards his 2nd year ... and the 3700 yard / 28TDs / 14INTs. Fields could better Brady's 3rd year statwise (of course not the team result). To be fair, Brady only played 1 game his 1st year ... but Fields played for Nagy in his 1st year (lost year).

Fields still has 12 games left this year. Give him the full year. Then we'll get a better idea of who he is. Like I said, where he needs to improve:

1. Better pocket presence (get the ball out quicker ... which he is doing recently).
2. Throw with anticipation (tighter windows and throwing receivers open). This will be his biggest hurdle.

 

[clydesdale line]

In no way am I comparing Fields to Brady, but Brady threw for 2800 yards his 2nd year ... and the 3700 yard / 28TDs / 14INTs. Fields could better Brady's 3rd year statwise (of course not the team result).

Much different era of football when Brady first entered vs now. The rules now are more catered towards quarterbacks offensive stats.

 

[Jdavidev]

First, I think we are in a different era in terms of QB development that's just different from the previous generations. I mean, we live in a world were Geno Smith is a solid QB after his first stint as a starting QB.

Everyone was freaking out after 14 straight losses and justifiably so. But the last two games and the win allows us and, more importantly, the front office to evaluate the situation over the remaining 12 games. There are huge differences if fields and the offense continue to play well here on our, have ups and downs, or just crap the bed.

If the bears get the #1 pick, there is a possibility Williams will refuse to play for the bears. His father is involved and that's usually never a good thing. That could force a trade of the pick that isn't as great as people are hoping for. Also, while he is a tremendous athlete with an unreal arm, and his highlights are incredible, if you watch the whole game, he doesn't seem to even bother with reads. He just sits back and waits for guys to get open behind his online, or uses his legs to make the big plays. There will be a learning curve for him once he reaches the NFL. Nothing a good coach can't work out, but that's the difference in the NFL these days. Coaching matters so.much with these young QB's.

 

[piteus]

First, I think we are in a different era in terms of QB development that's just different from the previous generations. I mean, we live in a world were Geno Smith is a solid QB after his first stint as a starting QB.

Everyone was freaking out after 14 straight losses and justifiably so. But the last two games and the win allows us and, more importantly, the front office to evaluate the situation over the remaining 12 games. There are huge differences if fields and the offense continue to play well here on our, have ups and downs, or just crap the bed.

If the bears get the #1 pick, there is a possibility Williams will refuse to play for the bears. His father is involved and that's usually never a good thing. That could force a trade of the pick that isn't as great as people are hoping for. Also, while he is a tremendous athlete with an unreal arm, and his highlights are incredible, if you watch the whole game, he doesn't seem to even bother with reads. He just sits back and waits for guys to get open behind his online, or uses his legs to make the big plays. There will be a learning curve for him once he reaches the NFL. Nothing a good coach can't work out, but that's the difference in the NFL these days. Coaching matters so.much with these young QB's.

Good points. Williams could sit out an entire season if he doesn't want to play for a certain team. I doubt that happens ... and reenter the draft. It's more like he'll opt out of the draft and get paid through NIL and reenter in '25.

I'll believe it when I see it though. Players usually want to get to their 2nd contract ASAP. Plus, the Bears are accruing talent. It wouldn't be a bad situation for a rookie QB unless the coaching is atrocious like Nagy.

 

[TLEH]

First, I think we are in a different era in terms of QB development that's just different from the previous generations. I mean, we live in a world were Geno Smith is a solid QB after his first stint as a starting QB.

Everyone was freaking out after 14 straight losses and justifiably so. But the last two games and the win allows us and, more importantly, the front office to evaluate the situation over the remaining 12 games. There are huge differences if fields and the offense continue to play well here on our, have ups and downs, or just crap the bed.

If the bears get the #1 pick, there is a possibility Williams will refuse to play for the bears. His father is involved and that's usually never a good thing. That could force a trade of the pick that isn't as great as people are hoping for. Also, while he is a tremendous athlete with an unreal arm, and his highlights are incredible, if you watch the whole game, he doesn't seem to even bother with reads. He just sits back and waits for guys to get open behind his online, or uses his legs to make the big plays. There will be a learning curve for him once he reaches the NFL. Nothing a good coach can't work out, but that's the difference in the NFL these days. Coaching matters so.much with these young QB's.

USCs Oline sucks.

I promise you he isn't considered generational because he just sits back there and watches guys come open. His pocket presence is elite. His arm is elite+.

He has shown ability to process and quick throw hot routes from multiple arm angles. He has thrown with anticipation at times in college. Rare.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

@ the end of MNF:

 

[piteus]

The football gods are fickle. All of a sudden, look who looks much better than Jordan Love. It's Justin Fields. I was never sold on Jordan Love. He still misses way too often ... though I do believe he can make an ave4age starting QB one day.

 

[TLEH]

Jordan Love sucks.

 

[TLEH]

Reich essentially saying he wanted Stroud and Tepper wanted Young.

 

[Clownish]

Reich essentially saying he wanted Stroud and Tepper wanted Young.

Reich's go-to move. Other than Wentz, he never gets his guy so it's everyone else's fault their QB play is awful. Certainly not the fault of the Quarterback Whisperer.

 

[TLEH]

Reich's go-to move. Other than Wentz, he never gets his guy so it's everyone else's fault their QB play is awful. Certainly not the fault of the Quarterback Whisperer.

That is believable. So is the billion hedge fund manager picking his guy. We will probably never know.

 

[Clownish]

That is believable. So is the billion hedge fund manager picking his guy. We will probably never know.

If they were 3-2 I doubt Reich is stopping the praise for his success to say, "now wait a minute let's give thanks to the GM for making the decision--it was his idea".

 

[Toews2Bickell]

Reich essentially saying he wanted Stroud and Tepper wanted Young.

this was the rumor even going back to the draft, the staff wanted stroud

 

[Mrfenn92]

Owners win every decision should they want to.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

Owners win every decision should they want to.

Yup and isn't this how Houston ended up with Stroud, owner wanted a QB, FO wanted Anderson, so they did both