Player Discussion Patrik Laine: Part 2 - Healthy Living Edition

[Marioesque]

I watched the last game, none of 2nd line did much but they didn't cause many issues either. And now I read Laine was a failure again or something?

Guy just played 3 games against the best teams in the world and belonged in there, more than some of his team mates did. And now some here are pretending he's not good enough for MTL roster?

 

[VT]

I watched the last game, none of 2nd line did much but they didn't cause many issues either. And now I read Laine was a failure again or something?

Guy just played 3 games against the best teams in the world and belonged in there, more than some of his team mates did. And now some here are pretending he's not good enough for MTL roster?

That's a description of the game at the time. Besides, Dach needs someone like Anderson or Slafkovský, not Laine. Someone who will go in front of the net instead, who will regularly win battles near the boards, in the corners. He can't. And Laine is a different type of player.

And you know yourself how important chemistry is.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

I do wish we had a better fit for him linemate wise, but it would suck to have to break lines that already work well. It weird though, you've got a speedy guy, a pass first guy and a sniper, on paper this should have worked.

 

[Marioesque]

I do wish we had a better fit for him linemate wise, but it would suck to have to break lines that already work well. It weird though, you've got a speedy guy, a pass first guy and a sniper, on paper this should have worked.

At least inside games where things are not going their way, could give a try by switching him and Slaf and seeing how that works for the lines. Test things and give them a chance to work, if it doesn't then try something else.

 

[26Mats]

I do wish we had a better fit for him linemate wise, but it would suck to have to break lines that already work well. It weird though, you've got a speedy guy, a pass first guy and a sniper, on paper this should have worked.

Laine likes to make passing plays with his linemates. When he makes a play to Newhook, it immediately gets turned over to the other team.

 

[VT]

Kirby is also coming off an injury. Even though he played more games and didn't get hurt in preseason, so many injuries have affected his play. I think it would be a good idea to leave him with Anderson.

 

[ReHabs]

Kirby is also coming off an injury. Even though he played more games and didn't get hurt in preseason, so many injuries have affected his play. I think it would be a good idea to leave him with Anderson.

Dach’s injury happened a year and a half ago. His surgery was completed on October 31st, 2023.

Everything since then has been recovery and rehabilitation. He had the whole of the 23-24 season to recover and the whole of the offseason to rehab and get into shape. Of course it is easier said than done but he’s paid millions to be a professional athlete. He entered pre-season with a clean bill of health and a contact jersey. We know how bad his season has gone and it looks like he’s getting cold again from the lukewarm peak he had when the team was red hot.

He’s a notoriously slow rehabber, which is why CHI got fed up with him and sold him to the next sucker. Now the pattern is repeating itself in Montreal: underwhelming but promising year1, total crash out with injury year2, awful bounce-back year3.

Laine’s pattern is a lot more miserable and complicated. It is hard to disentangle what we know about his mental health issues with his physical condition and brazen lack of fitness today. How much of it is his current knee? Is it his fitness in general? Did he rehab properly? Etc.

Both their contracts expire in 2026. It could be neither are Habs afterwards and at this rate probably for the best… which is why I really hope Laine’s problems stem from his fitness and recent injury and don’t represent his baseline athleticism and hustle. It would be a shame for such a rocket talent to be extinguished like this.

 

[Kimota]

I watched the last game, none of 2nd line did much but they didn't cause many issues either. And now I read Laine was a failure again or something?

Guy just played 3 games against the best teams in the world and belonged in there, more than some of his team mates did. And now some here are pretending he's not good enough for MTL roster?

I mean it's not our fault that he has sucked. It did happen. Nobody has imagined that he played badly.

 

[26Mats]

I mean it's not our fault that he has sucked. It did happen. Nobody has imagined that he played badly.

Looking forward to him being all the way back, and playing with linemates that match his skill level. Really hope he plays with Demidov next year.

 

[LaineBOOM]

I mean come on, Laine's highest scoring (points per season in their career) linemates this season have been guys like Dach, Newhook, Armia, Evans, Anderson.. and these guys honestly suck offensively most of the time.

"MSL doesnt wanna break up working 1st line" screw that he had all chances to break it up during the bad stretch before 4 nations. "Laine has to earn his playtime" even bigger bs.

What I think is happening:
1. The management wants Slaf to succeed and look like a good pick, a star, worth his salary. He can do that with Cole and Nick, but slap anyone there and they'd do the same. Laine on the other hand could take that line to new heights.
2. Newhook and Dach similarly "need to" succeed so that they can be seen as succesful trades. Hence their 2nd line ice time. They are not 2nd liners in ANY other team.
3. MSL (I believe so) has a mindset where he rewards hard work. And does not want to reward a player who doesnt work hard. Hence Laine is not given a spot on 1st line. And he will never be this work horse style of player.

- LaineBOOM the NHLfactman

 

[Scriptor]

Looking forward to him being all the way back, and playing with linemates that match his skill level. Really hope he plays with Demidov next year.

Is Laine of Demidov's skill level? Really?

Or is it that Laine needs someone of Demidov's skill level to draw the defenders' attention, free Laine up and then pass the puck to Laine for a one-timer which, right now, appears to be the Finn's only skill?

 

[Scriptor]

I mean come on, Laine's highest scoring (points per season in their career) linemates this season have been guys like Dach, Newhook, Armia, Evans, Anderson.. and these guys honestly suck offensively most of the time.

"MSL doesnt wanna break up working 1st line" screw that he had all chances to break it up during the bad stretch before 4 nations. "Laine has to earn his playtime" even bigger bs.

What I think is happening:
1. The management wants Slaf to succeed and look like a good pick, a star, worth his salary. He can do that with Cole and Nick, but slap anyone there and they'd do the same. Laine on the other hand could take that line to new heights.
2. Newhook and Dach similarly "need to" succeed so that they can be seen as succesful trades. Hence their 2nd line ice time. They are not 2nd liners in ANY other team.
3. MSL (I believe so) has a mindset where he rewards hard work. And does not wan

to reward a player who doesnt work hard. Hence Laine is not given a spot on 1st line. And he will never be this work horse style of player.

- LaineBOOM the NHLfactman

What a cynical take!

Comments like anyone will succeed playing with Caufield and Suzuki can't be serious? Suzuki isn't Mario Lemieux who can make the average plug into a 50-goal scorer.

Any Habs player will be better alongside Suzuki, IMO, but he won't turn a player without skill into a star.

It's actually a lot simpler than your conspiracy theories against Laine.

MSL wants Suzuki's line to face off against the opponents' best line and he doesn't want a defensive liability like Laine contribute to a negative goal differential when that line is out there.

Easy peasy.

Laine doesn't need to be the one that drives play on Suzuki's line, but he needs to be more reliable defensively to get more than PP time with Suzuki.

I'd see a perfect line -- next year -- of Heineman (speedy, physical, forecheck, puck retrieval, defensive acumen, secondary shooting option to keep defenders honest) - Beck (two-way, speedy shutdown C, strong on the F/O) - Laine (shooter)

 

[VT]

Dach’s injury happened a year and a half ago. His surgery was completed on October 31st, 2023.

Everything since then has been recovery and rehabilitation. He had the whole of the 23-24 season to recover and the whole of the offseason to rehab and get into shape. Of course it is easier said than done but he’s paid millions to be a professional athlete. He entered pre-season with a clean bill of health and a contact jersey. We know how bad his season has gone and it looks like he’s getting cold again from the lukewarm peak he had when the team was red hot.

He’s a notoriously slow rehabber, which is why CHI got fed up with him and sold him to the next sucker. Now the pattern is repeating itself in Montreal: underwhelming but promising year1, total crash out with injury year2, awful bounce-back year3.

Laine’s pattern is a lot more miserable and complicated. It is hard to disentangle what we know about his mental health issues with his physical condition and brazen lack of fitness today. How much of it is his current knee? Is it his fitness in general? Did he rehab properly? Etc.

Both their contracts expire in 2026. It could be neither are Habs afterwards and at this rate probably for the best… which is why I really hope Laine’s problems stem from his fitness and recent injury and don’t represent his baseline athleticism and hustle. It would be a shame for such a rocket talent to be extinguished like this.

Laine was fit before the season, when you train with American football players you can't be any different. He never had any problems with it. Another thing is that he didn't actually skate, he didn't start until after he arrived in Montreal.

There's one more important thing. He had a knee injury, which means that for about 4 weeks he couldn't train not only his lower body, including conditioning exercises, but partly his upper body as well, since this depend a lot on your legs, even if men is on the bench
.

 

[VT]

Is Laine of Demidov's skill level? Really?

Or is it that Laine needs someone of Demidov's skill level to draw the defenders' attention, free Laine up and then pass the puck to Laine for a one-timer which, right now, appears to be the Finn's only skill?

Can you tell me the name of the guy who draw the d-men's attention, free Laine up and then pass the puck to Laine for a one-timer in Columbus especially if he played right winger? Hint, he played worse with Gaudreau. Or a d-man. Hint, Werenski was often injured he even played only 13 games in 2022/23 season.

Btw, this line could be interesting. Laine had excellent chemistry with Chinakhov, a speed guy with excellent for/backchecking. Although Yegor is skilled. Speed Roslovic (btw, he is better winger) played center.

 

[ReHabs]

Laine was fit before the season, when you train with American football players you can't be any different. He never had any problems with it. Another thing is that he didn't actually skate, he didn't start until after he arrived in Montreal.

There's one more important thing. He had a knee injury, which means that for about 4 weeks he couldn't train not only his lower body, including conditioning exercises, but partly his upper body as well, since this depend a lot on your legs, even if men is on the bench
.

If he wasn't skating all summer and was out with injury and not skating prior to that then it doesn't matter if he did some workouts with NFL players. I don't have any evidence to support my claim, I'm just looking at the player and he looks out of shape. His balance is strange, he does wobbly things with his knees at times. It could be he fitness or it could be directly a product of his bad and injured knee.

Whatever the case, the over-arching argument I have is that I don't think The Habs expected too much from Laine, and especially after that knee injury. Hughes got paid to acquire him... and as much as some of us wanted Laine to rip the league and kick ass, it's clear he was damaged goods and all stakeholders involved knew it. The hope is he's young enough and skilled enough (both facts) that he could recover to a certain level before long. Hopefully we see it by the end of season, and if not, hopefully we see it next season... and if not, hopefully we see Laine's back as he leaves when his contract expires!

 

[VT]

If he wasn't skating all summer and was out with injury and not skating prior to that then it doesn't matter if he did some workouts with NFL players. I don't have any evidence to support my claim, I'm just looking at the player and he looks out of shape. His balance is strange, he does wobbly things with his knees at times. It could be he fitness or it could be directly a product of his bad and injured knee.

Whatever the case, the over-arching argument I have is that I don't think The Habs expected too much from Laine, and especially after that knee injury. Hughes got paid to acquire him... and as much as some of us wanted Laine to rip the league and kick ass, it's clear he was damaged goods and all stakeholders involved knew it. The hope is he's young enough and skilled enough (both facts) that he could recover to a certain level before long. Hopefully we see it by the end of season, and if not, hopefully we see it next season... and if not, hopefully we see Laine's back as he leaves when his contract expires!

My point was to show that he wasn't slacking off in the preseason.

With Laine it was different. We didn't want to trade him, he wanted to leave. Besides, he has the M-NTC with ten teams. Plus the GMs wanted to talk to him and couldn't until he was released from the NHLPA program. Count our efforts to not retain salary.

 

[DAChampion]

This rebuild is in awful shape of each of Dach, Newhook, and Laine don't workout.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This rebuild is in awful shape of each of Dach, Newhook, and Laine don't workout.

I don’t think so. Laine shouldn’t be counted on for anything. Our rebuild was in track before he got here and if he doesn’t pan out, it doesn’t change much. We got paid to take him.

Newhook is a 3rd liner. Even before the season began we knew he’d be on the third line in 25-26. Unfortunately this season he proved he belongs there.

Dach’s a different story. He’s a guy we’ve been counting on. This year showed that we need another top six forward for depth purposes.

If you look at the many iterations of ‘who’s our core’ threads usually none of these guys are listed. Sometimes Dach makes it but that’s about it.

Now… if Demidov turns out not to be a star player, then I’d say we’re set back pretty far. A lot is riding on him.

 

[DAChampion]

I don’t think so. Laine shouldn’t be counted on for anything. Our rebuild was in track before he got here and if he doesn’t pan out, it doesn’t change much. We got paid to take him.

That's a zero cost fallacy. You're devaluing something just because it was obtained for cheap.

That's not how things work. Assets are fungible. If Laine works out it adds, obviously. We saw the impact when the team had that 15-game stretch. If he doesn't work we need to add a Laine-caliber player to make it there at a minimum.

But regardless, the Habs could replace Laine with Demidov ... If Dach and Newhook weren't also busting even worse than Laine. It will be very difficult to replace an entire second line.

If you look at the many iterations of ‘who’s our core’ threads usually none of these guys are listed. Sometimes Dach makes it but that’s about it.

You're smarter than this.

The iterations of the "who's our core" threads changes with the seasons. We had an entire year of "Suzuki, Caulfield, Dach."

 

[LaineBOOM]

What a cynical take!

Comments like anyone will succeed playing with Caufield and Suzuki can't be serious? Suzuki isn't Mario Lemieux who can make the average plug into a 50-goal scorer.

Any Habs player will be better alongside Suzuki, IMO, but he won't turn a player without skill into a star.

The last time I checked Slaf was not a 50 goal scorer, but a cirka 15 goal scorer. Like I wrote: you can slap anyone from our team on Slaf's spot and they'd do equally good offensively as him.

Im not sure that I agree with your defensive game -praise of Slaf. Or did you merely mean that Slaf hasnt been as bad as Laine defensively? I agree with you on that.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Gotta love the zero sum game of comparing Dach and Laine. Hey maybe injuries/recovering from them are effecting BOTH of them. We know that’s allowed right? Doesn’t have to be either or.

Laine has displayed pretty high end playmaking. Dach has shown some great net driving. Don’t be shocked if both are significantly better next year

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's a zero cost fallacy. You're devaluing something just because it was obtained for cheap.

That's not how things work. Assets are fungible. If Laine works out it adds, obviously. We saw the impact when the team had that 15-game stretch. If he doesn't work we need to add a Laine-caliber player to make it there at a minimum.

I expected nothing from him. I said anything he contributes is gravy. He’s had do many injuries over the years, I just felt like adding him was a bonus if it worked out.

But regardless, the Habs could replace Laine with Demidov ... If Dach and Newhook weren't also busting even worse than Laine. It will be very difficult to replace an entire second line.

Newhook isn’t busting. This was an audition for him as a second liner and he didn’t pass. That’s okay, he was going to the third line next year no matter what.

Dach isn’t busting either. He’s been night and day better for a while now. The only concern with him is health. He’s a 2nd quality player though,

You're smarter than this.

Okay…

The iterations of the "who's our core" threads changes with the seasons. We had an entire year of "Suzuki, Caulfield, Dach."

That’s true and I think I indicated that in my post. Dach always had the potential of being a core player but he hasn’t been able to show it. I think last season’s missed year put an end to any ‘core’ talk though. He can still be a really good player but I think he’s not someone many would consider core now.

Newhook and Laine I’ve never see. As core players.

The guys we need to hit are Hutson, Slaf, RB and Demidov. They have to join CC and Suzuki. Guhle is another guy we’re counting on heavily.

The rebuild is in good shape with or without Newhook and Laine. Dach is important but I think we’ve now seen that we have to get some more depth to mitigate injuries on the 2nd line.

 

[LaineBOOM]

Is Laine of Demidov's skill level? Really?

Or is it that Laine needs someone of Demidov's skill level to draw the defenders' attention, free Laine up and then pass the puck to Laine for a one-timer which, right now, appears to be the Finn's only skill?

More like Demidov has high enough skill level to be on same level as Laine. Thus he meant that e.g. Dach and Newhook are not on that level.

He also very clearly meant is exactly as I wrote above, and not in your strawman way of "Laine is of Demidov's skill level". I hate the strawman term but that one was just ridiculous. He never said anything even remotely close to that.

Also, your example of Laine needing Demidov to "draw the defenders' attention, free Laine up and then pass the puck to Laine for a one-timer" sounds pretty good to me. One or two or three of those per game and the line will be scoring. At times Demi tries to score instead. Defence starts to overplay them and others will get more room as well. Sounds perfect!

 

[DAChampion]

More like Demidov has high enough skill level to be on same level as Laine. Thus he meant that e.g. Dach and Newhook are not on that level.

He also very clearly meant is exactly as I wrote above, and not in your strawman way of "Laine is of Demidov's skill level". I hate the strawman term but that one was just ridiculous. He never said anything even remotely close to that.

Also, your example of Laine needing Demidov to "draw the defenders' attention, free Laine up and then pass the puck to Laine for a one-timer" sounds pretty good to me. One or two or three of those per game and the line will be scoring. At times Demi tries to score instead. Defence starts to overplay them and others will get more room as well. Sounds perfect!

Laine is clearly a top-15 talent at the NHL level who is underperforming due to mental and physical issues.

This forum is currently discounting him due to a combination of cope and zero cost fallacy, but the fact is as recently as three weeks ago he was seen as a linchpin of the team, and compared to Kovalev from twenty years ago.

I expected nothing from him. I said anything he contributes is gravy. He’s had do many injuries over the years, I just felt like adding him was a bonus if it worked out.

You also expected nothing of Markov at the start of the 2013 season -- I remember. It was meaningless. Those Habs needed Markov, he provided, and he was gone the team soon went into a rebuild.