Balsillie/Phoenix part V

[LadyStanley]

fanster_sports Coyotes hearing: I am pretty sure the Judge said that if this process goes past June 30, the NHL may have to adjust free agency start date.



That would piss a lot of people off...

In the past it's been adjusted from "midnight" to "noon" as start time for negotiations/signings (July 1).

As long as there's sufficient lead time, shouldn't be an issue.

(FWIW, I recall some movement to change it to like July 5 to avoid the Canadian and US holidays on 7/1 and 7/4.)


This is one of those things that the NHLPA must agree to. (To date they really haven't been directly involved in the Phoenix Phiasco, Kelley's statement notwithstanding.)

 

[MoreOrr]

For JB, it always has been about getting a $500 million asset in Hamilton for $200-$300 million by poaching another franchise.

I suppose that if you can make a blanket statement like that then I can come back with my own.

You just don't get it, do you? It's always been about the League, and especially MLSE, trying to block any the putting of another NHL franchise anywhere in southern Ontario... and Balsillie made it about trying to find a way around that roadblock. For him, there was never any point in waiting to try to get and Expansion team, because it literally would be a waste of time. The decision was made that the only way that might work would be to try to relocate a team and then challenge the League's objections. He wouldn't have that option of challenging if it were an Expansion request.

 

[Moobles]

It's a well made argument, but Phoenix plays in a division with quite a bit of history (not the Southeast) and in addition, what about markets like Winnipeg and Hamilton- who have hockey history and hockey fans already?

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

The analogy would be: three guys in 2006 became big soccer fans because we invited them to the World Cup. They saw the passion, the interest, the culture, and got with it.

Three other guys tried to become soccer fans in 2007, but we showed them MLS games and it didn't have quite the impact.

It's going to take PHX longer than DAL or SJ.

Awesome analogy.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Kash2112 (Art Vandelay): Judge wants a case that shows he has a right to force the relocation in deference to nhl rules


PSE is citing cases they feel are relevant. Judge says Raiders 2 case says league has right to enforce their rules but it must be in a consistent manner

 

[Alberta Yote]

Let's look at some hypothetical numbers since we have nothing else:

Bid - $212 mill
Relocation - $75 mill (reduced for the sake of "mediation" arguement)
Damages to Glendale - $150 mill (shot in the dark but an amount that would pay their investment)

Now that is well over $400 mill. Is Balsillie still intereted?

 

[Northern Dancer]

I suppose that if you can make a blanket statement like that then I can come back with my own.

You just don't get it, do you? It's always been about the League, and especially MLSE, trying to block any the putting of another NHL franchise anywhere in southern Ontario... and Balsillie made it about trying to find a way around that roadblock. For him, there was never any point in waiting to try to get and Expansion team, because it literally would be a waste of time. The decision was made that the only way that might work would be to try to relocate a team and then challenge the League's objections. He wouldn't have that option of challenging if it were an Expansion request.

Here ya go again. Do you have any source at all that quotes MLSE's view on Hamilton?

I don't get your last quote, you seem to be inferring that JB is in this for sport and going thru the front door (expansion) has no appeal to him because MLSE would have obviously signed off in advance of any expansion to Hamilton.

 

[LadyStanley]

CBCSports.ca - Tom: From Tom Harrington in the courthouse:

Baum says buyer, debtor, league and city must decide who would pay the indemnity/relocation fees.

 

[KevFu]

The evil side of me somehow wants the NHL to keep the team in Phoenix just so it can bleed the poorer owners so that they fire Bettman and Daly.

I can't believe smart businessmen who made their millions/billions on shrewd business moves would even be falling for bettmans plans.

Personally, I hope what comes out of this is a long-term plan for franchise locations and growth of brand.

The positive end result to me is that in 2018:
- we have a 32-team league,
- with four divisions of eight that solve some travel issues
- JB owns a team in Hamilton
- Relocation rights of the league are intact
- Territorial rights of franchises are intact...
- ... as Buffalo is heavily compensated with a long-term deal with JB to suppliment their income
- ... and the Leafs get something to shut them up (a one-time fee) but everyone knows they will be fine (hopefully, they beat Hamilton in the East finals and win their first Cup in a long time, just to make everyone happy)
- The Islanders are alive and well on Long Island in a new building with Tavares.
- The NHL is first to Las Vegas
- Phoenix is either successful in the desert with a new owner, or moves to Kansas City.
- the new alignment stimulates the growth of hockey's popularity in Las Vegas, Nashville, Atlanta and Florida.
- Everyone gets some loot from Hamilton/Vegas expansion fees.
- NHLPA has more jobs.

 

[Evil Doctor]

The evil side of me somehow wants the NHL to keep the team in Phoenix just so it can bleed the poorer owners so that they fire Bettman and Daly.

I can't believe smart businessmen who made their millions/billions on shrewd business moves would even be falling for bettmans plans.

You're not the only one thinking that, with the NHL offer to cover all the costs in Phoenix, I keep thinking it's a win for Balsillie, no matter the outcome of this case.

 

[iceless]

It's also a different economic structure of the league than back then. The majority of revenue from the NHL back then came via ticket sales. Now it's from suites and sponsorships and the like.

Look, I'm not arguing the team wouldn't be more profitable in Hamilton. And I'm definitely not anti-Canadian markets. Heck, when I play NHL on PS2, I create seven franchises and eliminate most the Sun Belt teams -- adding the Quebec Nordiques, Winnipeg Jets, Hartford Whalers, Toronto Marlies/Moose Jaw somethings, Rochester Americans, Oswaha Generals, Hamilton Racers (nice stock logo with a road that makes an H)

I'd FAVOR contraction. If I was dictator of hockey for a day, we'd have a 24-team league with 10 Canadian teams, Hartford back, and only one city would have a team where there wasn't naturally occurring ice outside in Dec/Jan.

I'm just anti-this method of bringing an NHL team to Hamilton.

I don't think you dump any franchise after 12 years because one smart guy can turn a horrible franchise into a powerhouse. Like what happened in Detroit, like what happened to MLB's Atlanta Braves. Even a small market team, (see Oakland A's/Minnesota Twins in baseball).

There are actually people down south who support these notions? Not being sarcastic here... I'm just shocked. Good to know in any case...

 

[MoreOrr]

Here ya go again. Do you have any source at all that quotes MLSE's view on Hamilton?

Why don't you challenge the statement made by the guy I quoted:

For JB, it always has been about getting a $500 million asset in Hamilton for $200-$300 million by poaching another franchise.

Where is his proof that Balsillie has only been doing this to reduce the cost of paying for an Expansion franchise?

Perhaps both sides have no smoking pistol of proof. You show me some evidence that MLSE would be willing to allow a team in Hamilton with the payment of a Territorial Rights fee.

I don't get your last quote, you seem to be inferring that JB is in this for sport and going thru the front door (expansion) has no appeal to him because MLSE would have obviousoy signed off in advance of any expansion to Hamilton.

And this last part of what you said just makes no sense. I said that he knows that the Expansion route wouldn't work because the League will never give the go ahead for a team in Hamilton... so why wait to try something that he knows will fail.

 

[BogsDiamond]

The judge seems to realize the impact allowing this relocation bid to go through would have on the rest of the major sports.
You would see a few teams from the NBA and MLB try to do the same thing as Moyes.

That's why he'll probably allow the sale and relocation but it will come with a very hefty fee.

 

[Evil Doctor]

Fugu

from our very own Art Vandelay: NHL says Reinsdorf bid is in writing but not submitted due to privacy reasons

Does the NHL have such a bad rep that potenital owners want to wear paper bags over their heads?

 

[BigFatCat999]

Personally, I hope what comes out of this is a long-term plan for franchise locations and growth of brand.

The positive end result to me is that in 2018:
- we have a 32-team league,
- with four divisions of eight that solve some travel issues
- JB owns a team in Hamilton
- Relocation rights of the league are intact
- Territorial rights of franchises are intact...
- ... as Buffalo is heavily compensated with a long-term deal with JB to suppliment their income
- ... and the Leafs get something to shut them up (a one-time fee) but everyone knows they will be fine (hopefully, they beat Hamilton in the East finals and win their first Cup in a long time, just to make everyone happy)
- The Islanders are alive and well on Long Island in a new building with Tavares.
- The NHL is first to Las Vegas
- Phoenix is either successful in the desert with a new owner, or moves to Kansas City.
- the new alignment stimulates the growth of hockey's popularity in Las Vegas, Nashville, Atlanta and Florida.
- Everyone gets some loot from Hamilton/Vegas expansion fees.
- NHLPA has more jobs.

This except for the whole Toronto and Hamilton making it to the playoffs thing.

 

[LadyStanley]

Moderator on blog chimes in:
cbcsports - Chris: Baum was hoping against hope they could settle it on their own. Seems to me, and I'm not there, doesn't want to tackle it but the NHL are essentially giving him many reasons to tackle it.

cbcsports - Chris: but the owners may vote against it based on their own self-interested reasons - you've know way of knowing - if I'm the Atl owner do I want a guy who's moving into a premier market and is obviously brash? how's that gonna help me when I can barely meet the cap floor right know

And from court....
cbctom: Baum trying to set a sked for a decision and there are about seven more attorneys want to talk

cbctom: Baum points out that aside from bankruptcy, history suggests no team can move unilaterally.

 

[Dr. Charles]

Personally, I hope what comes out of this is a long-term plan for franchise locations and growth of brand.

The positive end result to me is that in 2018:
- we have a 32-team league,
- with four divisions of eight that solve some travel issues
- JB owns a team in Hamilton
- Relocation rights of the league are intact
- Territorial rights of franchises are intact...
- ... as Buffalo is heavily compensated with a long-term deal with JB to suppliment their income
- ... and the Leafs get something to shut them up (a one-time fee) but everyone knows they will be fine (hopefully, they beat Hamilton in the East finals and win their first Cup in a long time, just to make everyone happy)
- The Islanders are alive and well on Long Island in a new building with Tavares.
- The NHL is first to Las Vegas
- Phoenix is either successful in the desert with a new owner, or moves to Kansas City.
- the new alignment stimulates the growth of hockey's popularity in Las Vegas, Nashville, Atlanta and Florida.
- Everyone gets some loot from Hamilton/Vegas expansion fees.
- NHLPA has more jobs.

Well, if we ignore the financial losses of Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, Florida and Carolina, representing over 2 billion $ in the past 10 years, well, yes, we could put our pink glasses. Especially since the economy from the last 10 years has been great.

Just thinking about puting a team in Vegas blows my mind. NHL thought that retired people needed a team for the winter... that was the logic behind the Florida Panthers. Now they think the Casinos need to give away tickets so this is why we should plan to expand a team in Vegas? This is non sense.

 

[Brodie]

Recess for lunch and so Bettman can catch his plane to Pittsburgh.

 

[C77]

The judge seems to realize the impact allowing this relocation bid to go through would have on the rest of the major sports.
You would see a few teams from the NBA and MLB try to do the same thing as Moyes.

That's why he'll probably allow the sale and relocation but it will come with a very hefty fee.

That's my hope.

I think the league needs more teams in the Western part of the U.S. and Canada though and Hamilton doesn't help that.

 

[LadyStanley]

Does the NHL have such a bad rep that potenital owners want to wear paper bags over their heads?

Media reports indicate that Reinsdorf is a pretty quiet man, not seeking the limelight.

From media reports, there's also been some supposition that Reinsdorf may pull his offer if there's "too much" publicity about it.

 

[BigFatCat999]

Well, if we ignore the financial losses of Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, Florida and Carolina, representing over 2 billion $ in the past 10 years, well, yes, we could put our pink glasses. Especially since the economy from the last 10 years has been great.

Just thinking about puting a team in Vegas blows my mind. NHL thought that retired people needed a team for the winter... that was the logic behind the Florida Panthers. Now they think the Casinos need to give away tickets so this is why we should plan to expand a team in Vegas? This is non sense.

Nashville had an idiot for an owner and he's gone and the team is breaking even or making money. You can take them off that list. I'm not the biggest fan of vegas either. Seattle/Portland/Winnipeg yes, but not Vegas.

 

[BogsDiamond]

That's my hope.

I think the league needs more teams in the Western part of the U.S. and Canada though and Hamilton doesn't help that.

LadyStanley also makes a good point that the poorer teams do not want another premier club in the league that will push the Cap floor any higher.

From sportsnet:
Creditors want the $212 million offer, a representative from the Creditors Committee is saying.

 

[HockeyScholar]

Hey guys I just arrived. Can somebody give a quick recap on what has happened so far? Anything significant?

 

[LadyStanley]

cbctom: Attorney for creditors committee. Says an offer now is better than possible offer later. Delaying auction may reduce money.

 

[bcrt2000]

The judge seems to realize the impact allowing this relocation bid to go through would have on the rest of the major sports.
You would see a few teams from the NBA and MLB try to do the same thing as Moyes.

That's why he'll probably allow the sale and relocation but it will come with a very hefty fee.

The judge mentioned in clear terms that everyone in this court agrees that relocation cannot be forced if a team is not in bankruptcy, so I guess that's one win for the other sports leagues.