Balsillie/Phoenix part V

[Ward Cornell]

Media reports indicate that Reinsdorf is a pretty quiet man, not seeking the limelight.

From media reports, there's also been some supposition that Reinsdorf may pull his offer if there's "too much" publicity about it.

Yeppers....so a quiet man not seeking the limelight buys and operates teams in a sports crazed Chicago!

More smoke and mirrors!

 

[LadyStanley]

From Coyotes live blog:
Judge announces that this hearing will go to 12:40 P.M. It will resume later on today (approx. 1:45 P.M.). The judge will not make a decision from the bench today.

That's "PT" (equivalent). So court now in recess.

 

[bcrt2000]

they are officially in recess, will be back in an hour

 

[BigFatCat999]

Should we start an over/under bet on how many days it will take for the judge to snap, brining in an AK, and spray the place down with lead? I'm thinking 5 more sessions.

 

[Hawkscap]

And look what the Reinsdorf has done w/o Jordan.

I just don't want Yotes' fans to think Reinsdorf will keep the team in Phoenix. If he doesn't get what he wants, he will take the team for "greener" pastures

 

[Evil Doctor]

Art.V reported that the judge was allowing Bettman to leave to award the Cup tonight.

Come on Sid! Stick it to Bettman tonight...

 

[BogsDiamond]

Except that in this case it could mean submarining one of the best US markets around, Buffalo.

I wonder how much impact it really would have on Buffalo though.
That place is packed a lot of nights and very rabid at that.

I think Sabres fans wouldn't jump ship. Even ones that live on the Canadian border.

Especially when you think about how Hamilton tickets will cost just as much as Leaf tickets and probably be in the same level of demand.

 

[KevFu]

It's always been about the League, and especially MLSE, trying to block any the putting of another NHL franchise anywhere in southern Ontario... and Balsillie made it about trying to find a way around that roadblock. For him, there was never any point in waiting to try to get and Expansion team, because it literally would be a waste of time. The decision was made that the only way that might work would be to try to relocate a team and then challenge the League's objections. He wouldn't have that option of challenging if it were an Expansion request.

I agree on MLSE completely.

As for the league, I'm not so sure they are that opposed to Hamilton. I think their priorities were to grow the game to other markets, and adding a team in Hamilton just cements that it's a Canadian sport and not a league of total popularity. (Insert Ottawa argument here, but as I recall, it was Hamilton's own political situation that led to being passed over, and of course, Ottawa was one Northern market while DAL, ANA, SJ, TB, FLA, ATL, CAR, NASH, PHX got teams from other locations).

At the time when the NHL was handing out its "final" franchises in the last round of expansion, and returning to Northern markets (Minnesota, Columbus), Hamilton has no potential owner -- and the league returned the city's $100,000 application fee. Where was JB then? He was inventing the Blackberry, which came onto the market in 1998.

Is there any evidence JB went to the league from 1998-2005 in an effort for an NHL expansion team? I don't know, I'm asking.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

Except that in this case it could mean submarining one of the best US markets around, Buffalo.

I don't get how it would submarine the Sabres.

If anything, it adds two or three extra games for traveling fans and a new rival.

 

[MoreOrr]

I agree on MLSE completely.

As for the league, I'm not so sure they are that opposed to Hamilton. . . .

Well, I'm not so sure about that either. I only believe that few in the League are so in favor of the idea of putting a team in Hamilton that they would fight MLSE's wishes on the matter. And it's also quite certain there there would be at least a few League members who would be fully on MLSE's side, though none quite as vehement about it as MLSE.

 

[NeverGoingToWin]

So... After everything that has been said today, what are the odds that the team will end up in Hamilton?

 

[TaketheCannoli]

I don't get how it would submarine the Sabres.

If anything, it adds two or three extra games for traveling fans and a new rival.

Except PSE proposed to stay in the Western Conference, so they would play 1-2 times per season.

 

[iceless]

Can someone give me a logical answer as to why the Yotes should stay in Phoenix? And don't give me any of this 'expand the game' BS... it hasn't worked now or in the past... and there's no reason to expect that it will work in the future.

 

[Ward Cornell]

I don't get how it would submarine the Sabres.

If anything, it adds two or three extra games for traveling fans and a new rival.

I mentioned weeks ago that this could actually help the Sabres by growing the overall awareness of the game in the general area. Natural rivals = great business !
Any loss of Canadian fans going to the Sabres games will probably be more due to the increased difficulty (time wise) in crossing the border.
I waited 1 1/2 hours the other week!

 

[Evil Doctor]

I wonder how much impact it really would have on Buffalo though.
That place is packed a lot of nights and very rabid at that.

I think Sabres fans wouldn't jump ship. Even ones that live on the Canadian border.

Especially when you think about how Hamilton tickets will cost just as much as Leaf tickets and probably be in the same level of demand.

I just don't see it myself either. The Sabres have a season ticket base of 15,000. That suggests a pretty rock solid fan base. Besides it's for markets like Buffalo that revenue sharing is supposed to help, and Hamilton can only help that.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

Except PSE proposed to stay in the Western Conference, so they would play 1-2 times per season.

Outside of it making absolutely no sense what so ever of them staying in the Western Conference, that's why I put the 2 there.

 

[Fugu]

Come on Sid! Stick it to Bettman tonight...

Just say no. Accept thy fate. Go Wings!

Plus, what the judge says must go. He ordered Gary to award the Cup tonight...

 

[Brodie]

Come on Sid! Stick it to Bettman tonight...

Uhhh, no... the best way to stick it to Bettman would be his golden boy going down.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Outside of it making absolutely no sense what so ever of them staying in the Western Conference, that's why I put the 2 there.

Could it be that Detroit and Columbus are way ahead of them in line? If you remember, Columbus was supposed to move to the Eastern Conference in 2002.

Columbus and Detroit each play 34 of their 41 road games out of their time zone.

 

[Fugu]

I wonder how much impact it really would have on Buffalo though.
That place is packed a lot of nights and very rabid at that.

I think Sabres fans wouldn't jump ship. Even ones that live on the Canadian border.

Especially when you think about how Hamilton tickets will cost just as much as Leaf tickets and probably be in the same level of demand.

Everyone has ~assumed~ this would be the case, but I'm not buying it. Furthermore, let's say an indemnity fee is $40-50 million (haven't seen a real number...). How much did Golisano pay for the Sabres?

 

[LadyStanley]

Outside of it making absolutely no sense what so ever of them staying in the Western Conference, that's why I put the 2 there.

Could it be that Detroit and Columbus are way ahead of them in line? If you remember, Columbus was supposed to move to the Eastern Conference in 2002.

It's been reported by Detroit media that they have a league promise they'd be the first team in the queue if there's an opportunity for moving to the Eastern Conference.


Let's keep to the Phoenix topic and not go too far out on a relocation/realignment tangent.

 

[BigFatCat999]

Can someone give me a logical answer as to why the Yotes should stay in Phoenix? And don't give me any of this 'expand the game' BS... it hasn't worked now or in the past... and there's no reason to expect that it will work in the future.

The questions mostly being asked is how much money will be made to the NHl owners. If Balls buys the Yotes and moves them to Hamilton only Toronto, Moyes, and Buffalo will get something. An expansion team to Toronto/Hamilton would make ALL the teams in the league money is expansion fees. As for staying in Phoenix the league must make a conserted effort to try. A simple business can up and leave because there isn't a psychological stigma in a textile plant leaving an area but a team leaving a city is international news. The NHL made an effort with Ottawa, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Calgary, and Nashville. Now it's Phoenix's turn but the fanbase as to step the **** up and do something. I think this team is in the worse shape of the bunch. The fanbase and the local businesses have to make the effort to save the team. If the effort is not there they move.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

Could it be that Detroit and Columbus are way ahead of them in line? If you remember, Columbus was supposed to move to the Eastern Conference in 2002.

Columbus and Detroit each play 34 of their 41 road games out of their time zone.

Hamilton is also less than an hour away from Toronto.

Don't get me wrong Detroit and Columbus should be in the East but if Hamilton is in the West....well yea. Absolutely no sense.

And please, let me cry a little bit about Detroit and Columbus having to play out of their time zone. Their division teammates aren't 2 hours away. Only Vancouver and Dallas have to worry about that.

(Just read your post LadyStanley. Droppin it now )

 

[KevFu]

Where is his proof that Balsillie has only been doing this to reduce the cost of paying for an Expansion franchise?

Perhaps both sides have no smoking pistol of proof. You show me some evidence that MLSE would be willing to allow a team in Hamilton with the payment of a Territorial Rights fee.

And this last part of what you said just makes no sense. I said that he knows that the Expansion route wouldn't work because the League will never give the go ahead for a team in Hamilton... so why wait to try something that he knows will fail.

I didn't dispute MLSE's stance. It's obvious to me. Whether the rest of the league/Bettman has a problem with Hamilton is what I question. I don't see why he would, other than prioritizinig which markets get hockey FIRST during the time when the NHL was at 21/22 and going towards 28. In that case, you're going to want to GROW first before putting a team between two successful ones. Also, Hamilton didn't have a potential owner stepping to the plate. Like I said, JB was inventing the blackberry, and the City of Hamilton put up the bid, which the NHL dismissed and returned their fee.

It seems we've reached the saturation point where very few potential new markets are left for growth. The idea of "hey, we could use the influx of cash now, add a stable market we KNOW will be successful, be the first major league to Vegas, and solve some alignment issues in one swoop, to me is a no-brainer.

The question then becomes "Is this realistically possible, due to MLSE's objections?"

I don't know that JB has ever explored this avenue. Has the NHL ever said "NO" to Hamilton. Or have they only said "NO" to JB because he's asking to relocate a team they want to stay put.

He explored Pittsburgh and was told by the NHL he can't move the team to Hamilton.
He explored Nashville and was told by the NHL he can't move the team to Hamilton.

To me, those were back doors into Hamilton. Now he's threatening the constitution of the league in court because he couldn't get permission, and to me, that's not the back door, that's blowing off the walls to get inside.

I'm saying the front door is putting together a comprehensive proposal for the league for an expansion team and presenting it to the league. All the research and diligence they say they do on expansion markets. Do that first. Then go to the league and say "here's how it could work. He's how its more profitable than Kansas City, Winnipeg, Hartford or wherever."

It's widely known Bruckheimer's interested in a Vegas hockey team. Some clowns just put together a press conference to announce an expansion team for Toronto without ever talking to the league. Don't you think that if JB said "Hey, I'm here, I'm rich, I want to put an expansion team in Hamilton, what do you say?" that we'd have heard about it?

There are actually people down south who support these notions? Not being sarcastic here... I'm just shocked. Good to know in any case...

I'm a transplant from Rochester, NY. So, none that I've seen! Check Dallas, though!

 

[Big Country]

Evil Doctor and Frank Mackey,
The threat to the Sabres has been clearly explicated earlier in this thread (around page 20, if I recall. The long and short, 15 - 20% of their ticket base comes from Southern Ontario.