Confirmed with Link: [AZ/OTT] Jakob Chychrun in exchange for a conditional first in ’23, a conditional second in ’24, & a 2nd in ‘26

[Coyotedroppings]

That’s the only way Chicago can justify the returns they received for Kane and Debrincat

No doubt eh, what they did was far more egregious than what the Yotes are doing…. I mean, what with them actually being successful and all.

Coyotes GM Bill Armstrong took calculated risk trading Chychrun to Ottawa

The Arizona Coyotes saw some mixed reviews from the trade that sent defenseman Jakob Chychrun to the Ottawa Senators at the trade deadline.

arizonasports.com

I think his being fairly honest here, this is his mindset after all. He may be conveniently leaving ownership mandate out of it though.

 

[cobra427]

So what in the end is the difference?
Are you angry because you wanted more for Chych, or merely trying to show us you are smarter than BA, or what?
I think he tried to get more and couldn’t (because there is a gamble with Ottawa’s first rounder this year. I can’t fault the man for holding out for more, but also feel the asshat ownership group finances altered the course of this situation to some degree. In the end it doesn’t matter, never does, at least not as far as what f40 thinks.

The difference is when you get the picks, and setting your core, who you are keeping. If Chych were traded 18 months ago, we would be getting picks in an earlier draft, speeds up the rebuild. Also, when you tear a business down, you need to do it quickly and set who you are keeping. I think BA did this and then traded DVO/Garland and that is what soured Chych, made him think what BA told him was BS and this rebuild is going to take forever. Watch for Schmaltz/Keller ask to be traded this summer if they have not already asked. They have to be thinking they are getting moved too, the way BA operates. This is not good for the culture.

We didn't get close to what BA said Chych was worth, and I pointed out for months that we won't get 2 firsts and a prospect, and that Chych is average on D but elite on offense, got lots of flack for it, but its crickets now. BA in his interview saying Chych's injury effected what GMs thought of him and or his use, non use of cap space, are all things BA had to know or should have known going into the trade. It's way more scary if any of those issues surprised him. It took 18 months, there is a huge value to time, too much of it wasted.....

 

[TheLegend]

I dunno TL, if he never approaches him, maybe Chych never even considers going elsewhere?

Sure…. BA could have simply been an ass and just let him be miserable wondering WTF was going on.

 

[hbk]

This was a good.

 

[IrishFin]

This was a good.

I’ll have a hard time taking anyone serious when they continue complaining about the return after watching this video. There is a human element to this and Chychrun probably couldn’t have been traded to a better place. Glad the player is happy.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The difference is when you get the picks, and setting your core, who you are keeping. If Chych were traded 18 months ago, we would be getting picks in an earlier draft, speeds up the rebuild. Also, when you tear a business down, you need to do it quickly and set who you are keeping. I think BA did this and then traded DVO/Garland and that is what soured Chych, made him think what BA told him was BS and this rebuild is going to take forever. Watch for Schmaltz/Keller ask to be traded this summer if they have not already asked. They have to be thinking they are getting moved too, the way BA operates. This is not good for the culture.

We didn't get close to what BA said Chych was worth, and I pointed out for months that we won't get 2 firsts and a prospect, and that Chych is average on D but elite on offense, got lots of flack for it, but its crickets now. BA in his interview saying Chych's injury effected what GMs thought of him and or his use, non use of cap space, are all things BA had to know or should have known going into the trade. It's way more scary if any of those issues surprised him. It took 18 months, there is a huge value to time, too much of it wasted.....

You’ve said nothing above that you haven’t said repeatedly and constantly for what seems like months now. I’ve agreed with your evaluation of Chych, although I see his defensive play as improved this season.
What you “think” went down re: OEL / Garland is irrelevant because it’s mere speculation.
We also can’t speculate a better return earlier, anymore than we can speculate the actual return was better than it would have been. An argument could be made that because he already had an injury history, showcasing him this season actually improved the return. I’ll concede the rebuild would be further along had BA moved him earlier, but question the return being any better, as stated above.
So all in all you’ve used a lot of words to say you think the return should have been better, but again - opinion.
In closing, I don’t believe there is need for worry regarding BA, he tried to inflate the return as best he could, ran into a financial situation and got the best return he most likely could have, given the scenario…. Just a man doing his job.

 

[cobra427]

You’ve said nothing above that you haven’t said repeatedly and constantly for what seems like months now. I’ve agreed with your evaluation of Chych, although I see his defensive play as improved this season.
What you “think” went down re: OEL / Garland is irrelevant because it’s mere speculation.
We also can’t speculate a better return earlier, anymore than we can speculate the actual return was better than it would have been. An argument could be made that because he already had an injury history, showcasing him this season actually improved the return. I’ll concede the rebuild would be further along had BA moved him earlier, but question the return being any better, as stated above.
So all in all you said we wouldn’t get the ask, no surprise here and hardly worth gloating about.
In closing, I don’t believe there is need for worry regarding BA, he tried to inflate the return as best he could, ran into a financial situation and got the best return he most likely could have, given the scenario…. Just a man doing his job.

I'm glad the return wasn't a surprise to anyone, expect for all the posters on this board talking about 2 firsts and a top prospect from LA as an example, because they believed BA. Many disagreed with my evaluation of Chych, go look back at the posts, I took a contrary but honest position ahead of the trade because I saw right through it. This entire board is about speculation and I see a distinct pattern with BA I keep pointing out. I think most posters have very little experience operating, buying and running a business.

just the man doing his job, sure, we can all say that about any job and anybody. You are speculating on the reasons the return wasn't better just like we all are, except your doing it after the fact, not before like I did.

 

[Mosby]

Is anyone even missing Garland? We knew that contract would be ugly when mixed with style of play and concerns of long term durability.

 

[rt]

Is anyone even missing Garland? We knew that contract would be ugly when mixed with style of play and concerns of long term durability.

I love garland. But Guenther makes more sense for us.

 

[Heldig]

It will be weird for this season...Ottawa is one of the teams I follow in the East (born there so have always "liked" them). They have a ton of youth so hope the Coyotes get a top 16 pick but also excited to see if Chychrun can help them make a late playoff run.

 

[gorsk11]

I have waited to post. BA did not get fleeced. Not even close. None of the bottom 10 teams were trading a 2023 1st. He took Ottawa's 23 1st. It was way better than the bruins, canes and kings. Ottawa has lots of ground to cover to make the playoffs and they might but I think the gamble is good and he added a pick in this draft. I think some of you are missing the point. Who cares if the pick is 13-16 or 17-22. BA has accumulated shit tons of draft capital that he can use to move up and select who they want to target. The higher the pick the less draft capital he will need to use to say move up to 8-12 and get someone he really wants. So honestly I am rooting Ottawa finishes 16th. We have a small chance lottery hits and its 6th. If not move up and grab someone they want. I think BA got what several people wanted which as another pick in 2023. I am hoping its a dynamic draft and we get two really good players in the top 10-12 picks of the draft and most likely a 3rd first rounder late using some of that draft capital.

 

[SniperHF]

Is anyone even missing Garland? We knew that contract would be ugly when mixed with style of play and concerns of long term durability.

We had to pay to play to move OEL. I think Keller and Schmaltz finding another gear in their games has more or less made his absense a non-factor though now. Can only have so many soft scoring forwards unless you're Chayka anyway.

I do still think the Coyotes org did wrong by Garland generally though. They basically ghosted him, a player that came up through the organization *the hard way*, did what he was told, changed his game and attitude. Then they stop communicating with him on contract talks and punt him out the door? It wasn't a good look even if getting rid of OEL (who was cooked) and managing to grab a really great pick in the process was worth it.

 

[IronFinn]

My first impression on the trade was disappointment that we only got 1x1 & 2x2 and not 2x1 and 1x2. Then I started to wonder … how much more valuable is a 13-14 pick versus the expected 25 pick from a top contender. I think @rt was right on with stating BAs ask as two 25OA and one 50OA. So I went off looking for one of those draft valuation charts. After looking at several, I settled on the most recent and most realistic one IMO as the one from Sound of Hockey. Bigger numbers are better. In their chart 1OA gets a 1000. 32OA is down at 133, and they provide the value of every single position. So scoring 25, 25, 50 comes in at a total score of 325. That is what BA was asking for. The Ottawa deal as struck comes in at a notably better 440. That assumes 13-14 this year, 43OA for Washington 2nd next year, and 57OA from Ottawa in 2026. The LA offer using 24OA, 24OA, and 56OA comes in slightly behind Ottawa at 428. And we have heard that LA wanted us to take salary and/or Bjornfot for the 3rd asset and most are saying he is not a mid 2nd round value anymore. So I was being generous giving him a mid 2nd score.

After doing this exercise, it sure seems like BA exceeded his ask … No???

All that said, I am with @Kai Yo T that I wanted more for one of our best players. But it does seem like BA exceeded his ask and did not come up short.

Mea culpa … basic math error on my original post. The 25OA, 25OA, 50OA comes in at a score of 425 (and not 325) as originally posted. Therefore the Ottawa deal is just slightly better than the original ask. Point still stands, but the magnitude is updated.

 

[cobra427]

We had to pay to play to move OEL. I think Keller and Schmaltz finding another gear in their games has more or less made his absense a non-factor though now. Can only have so many soft scoring forwards unless you're Chayka anyway.

I do still think the Coyotes org did wrong by Garland generally though. They basically ghosted him, a player that came up through the organization *the hard way*, did what he was told, changed his game and attitude. Then they stop communicating with him on contract talks and punt him out the door? It wasn't a good look even if getting rid of OEL (who was cooked) and managing to grab a really great pick in the process was worth it.

The way Garland was treated and maybe DVO too, might have been enough for Chych to decide he wants out. There is a cost for how you handle a tear down that has a trickle down effect, and it might have cost us our best player and the last 18 month circus.

 

[rt]

Who posted the list of pick for pick trades and where is it? It was a great post but I just can’t find it.

 

[Jakey53]

Time will tell if it’s a fleecing, as you well know.
But yes, the question is why now and the answer is this asshat ownership group, that you have (from my observation) stood up for.

IF they told BA no money coming back, it sure isn't a good look.

 

[TheLegend]

We had to pay to play to move OEL. I think Keller and Schmaltz finding another gear in their games has more or less made his absense a non-factor though now. Can only have so many soft scoring forwards unless you're Chayka anyway.

I do still think the Coyotes org did wrong by Garland generally though. They basically ghosted him, a player that came up through the organization *the hard way*, did what he was told, changed his game and attitude. Then they stop communicating with him on contract talks and punt him out the door? It wasn't a good look even if getting rid of OEL (who was cooked) and managing to grab a really great pick in the process was worth it.

From what I've garnered he fell back to his old habits in Vancouver. Which is why he's somewhat in their doghouse new.

 

[Jakey53]

The difference is when you get the picks, and setting your core, who you are keeping. If Chych were traded 18 months ago, we would be getting picks in an earlier draft, speeds up the rebuild. Also, when you tear a business down, you need to do it quickly and set who you are keeping. I think BA did this and then traded DVO/Garland and that is what soured Chych, made him think what BA told him was BS and this rebuild is going to take forever. Watch for Schmaltz/Keller ask to be traded this summer if they have not already asked. They have to be thinking they are getting moved too, the way BA operates. This is not good for the culture.

We didn't get close to what BA said Chych was worth, and I pointed out for months that we won't get 2 firsts and a prospect, and that Chych is average on D but elite on offense, got lots of flack for it, but its crickets now. BA in his interview saying Chych's injury effected what GMs thought of him and or his use, non use of cap space, are all things BA had to know or should have known going into the trade. It's way more scary if any of those issues surprised him. It took 18 months, there is a huge value to time, too much of it wasted.....

Chych was hurt last year.

Is anyone even missing Garland? We knew that contract would be ugly when mixed with style of play and concerns of long term durability.

I miss Garland.

 

[Jakey53]

I have waited to post. BA did not get fleeced. Not even close. None of the bottom 10 teams were trading a 2023 1st. He took Ottawa's 23 1st. It was way better than the bruins, canes and kings. Ottawa has lots of ground to cover to make the playoffs and they might but I think the gamble is good and he added a pick in this draft. I think some of you are missing the point. Who cares if the pick is 13-16 or 17-22. BA has accumulated shit tons of draft capital that he can use to move up and select who they want to target. The higher the pick the less draft capital he will need to use to say move up to 8-12 and get someone he really wants. So honestly I am rooting Ottawa finishes 16th. We have a small chance lottery hits and its 6th. If not move up and grab someone they want. I think BA got what several people wanted which as another pick in 2023. I am hoping its a dynamic draft and we get two really good players in the top 10-12 picks of the draft and most likely a 3rd first rounder late using some of that draft capital.

A lot of "if" you have here. Let's see what BA does at the draft.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I'm glad the return wasn't a surprise to anyone, expect for all the posters on this board talking about 2 firsts and a top prospect from LA as an example, because they believed BA. Many disagreed with my evaluation of Chych, go look back at the posts, I took a contrary but honest position ahead of the trade because I saw right through it. This entire board is about speculation and I see a distinct pattern with BA I keep pointing out. I think most posters have very little experience operating, buying and running a business.

just the man doing his job, sure, we can all say that about any job and anybody. You are speculating on the reasons the return wasn't better just like we all are, except your doing it after the fact, not before like I did.

We got us a regular John Chaka here boys…. Smartest guy in the room!

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I have waited to post. BA did not get fleeced. Not even close. None of the bottom 10 teams were trading a 2023 1st. He took Ottawa's 23 1st. It was way better than the bruins, canes and kings. Ottawa has lots of ground to cover to make the playoffs and they might but I think the gamble is good and he added a pick in this draft. I think some of you are missing the point. Who cares if the pick is 13-16 or 17-22. BA has accumulated shit tons of draft capital that he can use to move up and select who they want to target. The higher the pick the less draft capital he will need to use to say move up to 8-12 and get someone he really wants. So honestly I am rooting Ottawa finishes 16th. We have a small chance lottery hits and its 6th. If not move up and grab someone they want. I think BA got what several people wanted which as another pick in 2023. I am hoping its a dynamic draft and we get two really good players in the top 10-12 picks of the draft and most likely a 3rd first rounder late using some of that draft capital.

I think it will be difficult to move up this draft, for the very same reasons the bottom teams weren’t trading their first.

 

[lanky]

I think it will be difficult to move up this draft, for the very same reasons the bottom teams weren’t trading their first.

Agreed. We're gonna get a great player with Ottawa's pick, whether it's at 11 OA (unlikely) or 16 (OA more likely).

 

[cobra427]

We got us a regular John Chaka here boys…. Smartest guy in the room!

I'm not that smart, I don't use fancy stats, but I was right on this before hand and I am rarely right

 

[RedBeard]

Who posted the list of pick for pick trades and where is it? It was a great post but I just can’t find it.

Prospect Info: - 2023 Draft Thread (Yotes picking #6 & #12)

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Jakey53]

I'm not that smart, I don't use fancy stats, but I was right on this before hand and I am rarely right

Hey Chayka427. Didn't you also say he would be going to a contender where the GM is on the hot seat? You said TO and Oilers, and that he wouldn't be going to a team out of the playoffs?