Speculation: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part XVII

[henchman21]

Has the perception Merkley been dropping? Wasn't he supposed to be a really high pick?

Just lots of competition in the top 10. Somebody will love that skill set enough in the top ~12 to select him.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Has the perception Merkley been dropping? Wasn't he supposed to be a really high pick?

He's not on a great team but he's had a lot of defensive issues second half.

I checked him out a bit after you mentioned him before and I agree.

He is a bit of a questionmark thanks to his limited exposure and his recent injury but the little I could find about him sounds really intriguing.

If he can build on his recent performance in the CHL, I really would not mind picking him up (preferably with a 2nd mid 1st rounder.)

Alexeyev has that smoothness that really jumps out at you that top Ds seem to have.

 

[Bender]

If the Avs want to win a cup, they will need a legit #1D. Can't win expect to win one without a #1D. There are at least 3, maybe 4 musts to win a cup. A #1C, #1D, and average to maybe slight above average starting goalie... the 4th would be a top 6 center with size if the #1C is on a the smaller side.

Overall theme of your post, yeah don't trade MacK. He is the #1C in that equation.

Not saying 'I don't ever want one' nor am I saying 'we don't really need one'...I'm just saying, we have to learn to be a GOOD TEAM FIRST and it's not going to happen just because we undersold a few of our better players for ONE d-man.

Put me in the camp where I want to see the Avs make drastic moves to make this team better for the future but my expectations aren't 'making moves to win the Stanley Cup' within 2-3 years because I believe that is unrealistic. I posted that message with the idea that the Avs need to become a good team, a playoff team first...then maybe a team who wins a round or two and THEN maybe we are in a position where maybe we are able to add that missing piece. Maybe it will be a kid we drafted along the way or a UFA that is set to come here because it's an attractive destination. As others have said, I don't think that #1 D-Man is available in a trade for Duchene so let's get the best ROR-type package we can get and move forward. Maybe we get lucky and some unsung prospect or pick as part of that package becomes the next Slavin.

I agree it is a team sport, and no, we are not one d-man away from hoisting the cup. Mackinnon has the ability to take over a game, but at the end of the day, he can't move the puck from the backend. This team does not have a player that can make an outlet pass to save their life.

My point is this:

Is there a top defenseman in this draft that we are going to get with the #1-4 pick? No. Is there a potential front line center that we could end up with? Yes. I don't think that Patrick is as gifted as Mack, but I think that he can be a good responsible two way center that can distribute the puck. We also have Jost, Duchene, and Compher. If Mack gets dealt to bring in a top line defender, which he could easily do, then the team would still have good center depth and a top defenseman. I would prefer to hold onto Mack over the other pieces we could move, but the reality is that Duchene and Landeskog will not net us more than a package with a potential top-4 d-man in it, ie ROR deal.

To respond to your point (which you've made clearer, thanks for that) : where's the rush? There may not be a #1 d-man available in free agency this year or a potential one in the draft but that doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Regardless of the moves the Avs make, they are STILL going to be one of the youngest teams in the league for the next few years...why would such a move NEED to happen right now?

Hey, I want the Avs to become a good team as much as anyone but moving out the ONLY player that's managed to push through the garbage that has been this season is a mistake in my view. Hang on to the guy that has played through it and move out those that don't want to be here either by their own choice or by their performance.

The #1D problem is real, and we need one, but the stark reality of it is that those are not really available right now, either in trade or in the 2017 draft. If we're in a full rebuild (which everybody seems to agree on), then we will probably have to wait until the 2018 draft, when it looks like good D will be available to draft. Dahlin isn't the only really promising blueliner in that class. True tear-it-down rebuilds are multi-year projects, and people seem to really want to force the D question this year for some reason. There are still people calling for reaching for Liljegren at 4, even though he wouldn't even be a #1.

I don't agree with that. A full rebuild would be trading all of : Duchene, Landeskog, Barrie, Varlamov & EJohnson.

The Avs won't and shouldn't do that.

I believe Duchene will be moved by the expansion / entry draft.

I believe #32 gets his ass bought out.

I believe there is a chance that Barrie gets moved if we can get his defensive equivalent in return.

I think Landeskog will have the chance to stay with the team but will need to show more next year. No more crappy veterans in the room, it's his team and if it doesn't go well, he's next one out. But after those guys, I think the rest of the players are guys the Avs want to keep. (Varly will be more health related than anything else if he stays or goes)

1. Grigorenko - KHL bound, imo
2. Comeau - Vegas bound
3. #32 - bought out
4. Weircioch - buh-bye
5. Goloubef - AHL
6. Tyutin - KHL
7. RBourque - KHL
8. Malkin - KHL
9. Smith - AHL

That's a lot of turnover for one year and under that scenario, only Soderberg and Colborne remain from our 'under-performing' depth and they could bounce back under a different coach.

Ideally, with the moves that are likely ahead, the Avs snag themselves a 2018 1st round pick as part of the package for Duchene and then we get a great young defender in that draft.

 

[henchman21]

Not saying 'I don't ever want one' nor am I saying 'we don't really need one'...I'm just saying, we have to learn to be a GOOD TEAM FIRST and it's not going to happen just because we undersold a few of our better players for ONE d-man.

Put me in the camp where I want to see the Avs make drastic moves to make this team better for the future but my expectations aren't 'making moves to win the Stanley Cup' within 2-3 years because I believe that is unrealistic. I posted that message with the idea that the Avs need to become a good team, a playoff team first...then maybe a team who wins a round or two and THEN maybe we are in a position where maybe we are able to add that missing piece. Maybe it will be a kid we drafted along the way or a UFA that is set to come here because it's an attractive destination. As others have said, I don't think that #1 D-Man is available in a trade for Duchene so let's get the best ROR-type package we can get and move forward. Maybe we get lucky and some unsung prospect or pick as part of that package becomes the next Slavin.

I'd argue that realistically being a good team would keep Avs from being able to draft that #1D type in the timeframe they need if they don't draft one by the end of the 2018 draft. Teams don't trade those #1 types often at all anymore. I think it is unrealistic to be able to add one in a few years when the team is ready to take the next step. In other words... there is a time frame for this next core as well. This D needs to be ripe before that window is closing and this all has to start over again. The Avs are already on the verge of being the Panthers, that would seal it.

 

[Foppberg]

Main boards are going to be fun now that an Eklund esque writer said MacKinnon is available.

 

[falconski]

Main boards are going to be fun now that an Eklund esque writer said MacKinnon is available.

How long until the first overrated third line center comment?

 

[Pacman33]

How long until the first overrated third line center comment?

Theres already a thread. Apparently its mack for maata and a first

 

[Perratrooper]

Theres already a thread. Apparently its mack for maata and a first

Maybe throw in a conditional 5th

 

[TheForsbergShow]

Main boards are going to be fun now that an Eklund esque writer said MacKinnon is available.

Yaay , now we get to hear about trades for Mack now along with Duchene and Landy all off season.

 

[Avs_19]

How long until the first overrated third line center comment?

Decided to head over there to check it out and you what? It's not too bad. I think the main board might respect his game more and value him higher than some do here.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Decided to head over there to check it out and you what? It's not too bad. I think the main board might respect his game more and value him higher than some do here.

He still holds that aura of the top pick... More will come along.

 

[Foppa2118]

The Avs need to find defenseman outside the top of the draft. Drafting them early in the 1st hasn't historically been the model for building a Stanley Cup winner. They need to utilize trades and UFA, as well as draft and develop D men later in the draft.

If you look at the last ten years of cup winners, only one top D man (Doughty) was drafted by that team early in the 1st. The vast majority were taken later, traded for, or signed as UFA's. The majority of the D men traded for or signed as UFA's were taken later in the draft as well.

2016 - Pittsburgh - Letang (#62) Trevor Daily (Trade-#43) Ollii Maatta (#22)
2015 - Chicago - Ducan Keith (#54) Breant Seabrook (#14) Nik Hjalmarsson (#108)
2014 - LA - Doughty (#2) Voynov (#32) Muzzin (#141) Martinez (#95)
2013 - Chicago - Ducan Keith (#54) Seabrook (#14) Hjalmarsson (#108)
2012 - LA - Doughty (#2) Jack Johnson (Trade-#3) Matt Greene (Trade-#44) Voynov (#32) Martinez (#95)
2011 - Boston - Chara (Trade-#56) Seidenberg (Trade-#172) Boychuk (Trade-#61) Ferrence (Trade-#208)
2010 - Chicago - Ducan Keith (#54) Brent Seabrook (#14) Nik Hjalmarsson (#108)
2009 - Pittsburgh - Letang (#62) Goligoski (#61) Gonchar (UFA-#14) Orpik (#18)
2008 - Detroit - Lidstrom (#53) Rafalski (UFA-Undrafted) Kronwall (#29) Chelios (Trade-#40)
2007 - Niedermayer (UFA-#3) Pronger (Trade-#2) Beauchemin (Trade-#75) Sean O'Donnell (Trade-#123)
2006 - Carolina - Frantisek Kaberle (UFA-#76) Bret Hedican (Trade-#198) Mike Commodore (Trade-#42)


In fact, the same holds to be true for the top 10 teams in the standings this year. Only Washington (Alzner-#5) Columbus (Wereknski-#8) Minny (Dumba-#7) and Anaheim (Lindholm-#6) drafted a top D man early in the 1st.

Of which, really only Werenski is in the conversation for the top D man on their team.


Washington - Niskanen (UFA-#28) Carlson (#27) Orlov (#55) Alzner (#5) Shattenkirk (Trade-#14)
Pittsburgh - Letang (#62) Schultz (Trade-#43) Cole (Trade-#18) Trevor Daily (Trade-#43) Ollii Maatta (#22)
Chicago - Ducan Keith (#54) Brent Seabrook (#14) Nik Hjalmarsson (#108)
Columbus - Werenski (#8) Jones (Trade-#4) Johnson (Trade-#3) Savard (#94)
Montreal - Weber (Trade-#49) Markov (#162) Beaulieu (#17) Emelin (#84) Petry (Trade-#45)
NYR - McDonagh (Trade-#12) Skjei (#28) Holden (Trade-Undrafted) Giradi (Undrafted)
Minnesota - Suter (UFA-#7) Spurgeon (UFA-#156) Dumba (#7) Brodin (#10) Scandella (#55)
Anaheim - Fowler (#12) Vatanen (#106) Lindholm (#6) Manson (#160)
Edmonton - Sekera (UFA-#71) Larsson (Trade-#4) Russell (UFA-#67) Klefbom (#19)
San Jose - Burns (Trade-#20) Vlassic (#35) Martin (UFA-#62) Braun (#201)


If there's a top D man in the right spot early in the draft, they should take one. Otherwise, if the Avs are to build a competitive team, they need to be able to trade for, or sign top defenseman as UFA's, as well as find them later in the draft and develop them. That's what history has proven to be the proper model for success.

 

[Balthazar]

If they thought the price for Duchene was insane they wont like the price for Mackinnon.

Panthers fan on the main board offered Ekblad straight up. That's the kind of deal that could be possible IMO. Both signed long term, both 21 years old, both were 1OA...

I know Ekblad is having a rough year but so is Mack. I want the new rebuild around Mack, but let's face it: Ekblad is really what the AVS need.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Panthers fan on the main board offered Ekblad straight up. That's the kind of deal that could be possible IMO. Both signed long term, both 21 years old, both were 1OA...

I know Ekblad is having a rough year but so is Mack. I want the new rebuild around Mack, but let's face it: Ekblad is really what the AVS need.

Yes, Ekblad and his concussion from slight breezes is what we need.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

I really hope the Ducks end up having to expose Manson and the Avs manage to swoop in there with a deal for him. He'd look great as a stabilizing defensive dman, and he can keep people honest.

 

[Avs44]

Panthers fan on the main board offered Ekblad straight up. That's the kind of deal that could be possible IMO. Both signed long term, both 21 years old, both were 1OA...

I know Ekblad is having a rough year but so is Mack. I want the new rebuild around Mack, but let's face it: Ekblad is really what the AVS need.

Ekblad has now had 5 concussions in his NHL career.

 

[AvsCOL]

Ekblad has now had 5 concussions in his NHL career.

Yep, want no part of that.


Also, MacKinnon isn't going anywhere. You can't sell low on a player you drafted first overall a few years ago, then signed to a big extension. Total ******** rumour imo.

 

[Balthazar]

Where do you guys see 5? I see 3. I do think that he needs some rest though.

Roman Josi had 5 concussions at age 21, didn't turn out too bad.

 

[Avs44]

Where do you guys see 5? I see 3. I do think that he needs some rest though.

Roman Josi had 5 concussions at age 21, didn't turn out too bad.

McKenzie confirmed 4 on TSN recently, and he since went back out of their lineup again recently with headaches, neck pain, and so on, so I think we know what that one is. Of course he could easily turn it around, but for a physical defensman there is a lot of risk there too. A lot.

 

[El Travo]

Where do you guys see 5? I see 3. I do think that he needs some rest though.

Roman Josi had 5 concussions at age 21, didn't turn out too bad.

Some people say 3. Some say 5. Some say 7.

Regardless, he's had enough to warrant caution. He somehow finds a way to put himself into those positions as well. The guy is 6'4" and somehow gets hit in the head by guys around 5'10" - 5'11" with skates making full contact with the ice.

Plus, 7.5m AAV for the hope that he turns out great is a bit steep.

 

[PAZ]

Some people say 3. Some say 5. Some say 7.

Regardless, he's had enough to warrant caution. He somehow finds a way to put himself into those positions as well. The guy is 6'4" and somehow gets hit in the head by guys around 5'10" - 5'11" with skates making full contact with the ice.

Plus, 7.5m AAV for the hope that he turns out great is a bit steep.

Honestly, Mackinnon isn't what we wanted him to be at this point but if you consider he's sandwiched in between Yakupov and Ekblad (who's great but I don't know if I take him over Mack at this point), we got ourselves one of the better 1st round picks in the last 5 years. He's no McDavid, Eichel, Laine, Matthews but it could be worse.

 

[Pacman33]

Ekblad would be way too risky. Mack is a heck of a player and one of the few who have consistently given a crap this year. Thats the mentality we need here. Ekblad is a great player but just too much injury risk especially in this day and age where concussions are taking alot more seriously then they used to be. We already have ej who misses time most years. Cant afford to trade away our best player for somebody who has big time injury concerns

 

[AvsCOL]

Honestly, Mackinnon isn't what we wanted him to be at this point but if you consider he's sandwiched in between Yakupov and Ekblad (who's great but I don't know if I take him over Mack at this point), we got ourselves one of the better 1st round picks in the last 5 years. He's no McDavid, Eichel, Laine, Matthews but it could be worse.

Well it happens sometimes where a player takes a bit of time to adjust to the mental aspect of the game, and I believe this is the case with MacKinnon. Aside from his first season, he had been sort of bouncing around as far as line mates go, and the coaching has been spotty to say the least.

Given Mackinnons physical abilities, I don't think there's any way you can give up on him as a 21 year old. You're talking about a guy who is one of the fastest in the league, and he's finally got a line that he's clicking with. No way I move him.

 

[Foppberg]

Well it happens sometimes where a player takes a bit of time to adjust to the mental aspect of the game, and I believe this is the case with MacKinnon. Aside from his first season, he had been sort of bouncing around as far as line mates go, and the coaching has been spotty to say the least.

Given Mackinnons physical abilities, I don't think there's any way you can give up on him as a 21 year old. You're talking about a guy who is one of the fastest in the league, and he's finally got a line that he's clicking with. No way I move him.

True. Not everyone comes in and lights it up like McDavid/Matthews.

 

[Balthazar]

You guys realize that we'd buy extremely low on Ekblad, right? Yeah it's a bit risky, that's why he'd be available. During his teen years, people on HF considered Ekblad the player with the highest trade value in the NHL (that was pre-McDavid of course).

But as usual on HF, you're only as good as your last 10 games or so. No vision, just emotions. That's also why Mack is back being the flavor of the month after being trashed all year on this board (and he was constantly trashed on the main board too. By AVS fans). Short, short memory.