Value of: Avs Firesale, truly this time...

[The Abusement Park]

This is what I was thinking is what it'd be..their 1st isn't exactly the main piece.

RNH, Eberle, and Nurse for Landeskog and Barrie seems reasonable to me.

As an Avs fan, I think I'd be ok with this overall.

I think a base of RNH, Eberle, and Nurse for Landy and Barrie isn't awful. Again I think we'd have to add something, but nothing too huge IMO.

 

[strictlyrandy]

I think a base of RNH, Eberle, and Nurse for Landy and Barrie isn't awful. Again I think we'd have to add something, but nothing too huge IMO.

A mid pick/prospect like say..Henley?

I'd still be ok with it.

That'd give the Avs a top 6 of

Eberle - Duchene - Rantanen
? - RNH - MacK

 

[The Abusement Park]

A mid pick/prospect like say..Henley?

I'd still be ok with it.

Yeah I think so. That would be a damn big trade if something like this happened. Geezz

 

[strictlyrandy]

Yeah I think so. That would be a damn big trade if something like this happened. Geezz

A 5 player (6 if Henley cracks the NHL) trade that were all quality players...that'd be a blockbuster for sure. I kinda want to see it now.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Gross

 

[bernmeister]

I've already said I was joking..because McDonagh for MacKinnon is good for the Rangers and not for the Avs. Figured that was pretty obvious. Then again maybe I expect too much from you sometimes.

It isn't a serious discussion as defense isn't what the Avs need. They need top 6 talent (as has been said multiple times in this very thread). Figured you'd have understood that Bern. Maybe I overestimate your reading comprehension.

In a thread where OP clearly states MacK is available because he in particular is dumber than dumb, and would not be given away, but would be considered for serious talent, not only is your statement not obvious, it is not conclusively clearly accurate.

Beyond Barrie and EJ, your backline corps is not getting confused with the Canes.

But even if you don't look at the best total deal, rejecting McD out of hand is foolish because:

he is a quality currency that would be welcome and useful on nearly every club

also, I said a core. I was thinking something like McD and Zuc, who is clearly top 6 either W, with reasonable add back to NY w/MacK

my academic prowess, incidentally, is respected by advocates and detractors alike
your childish retort is

 

[major major]

Certainly that's a very good point, and something of a debate among fans right now; stay the course and try to fix some pretty ugly depth and bad veterans, or blow it up because the star players can't carry the team?

Moving out the stars is a really bad idea, unless you've got an insane return. Yeah, the stars can't carry a team with bad support, but you're not going to find guys who can, at least not without improbable luck. It's been years now where the Avs have been cheap with their wings and they've suffered for it. They've got to invest and make the team good. Move Bigras or something for a youngish 45 pt scorer, or take a risk on a vet who still produces (a Hartnell type, though he's not available now).

I think a little more depth like that would be huge. I really like Bednar and I think he can mold a winner if he gets half decent tools.

 

[snipes]

I think a base of RNH, Eberle, and Nurse for Landy and Barrie isn't awful. Again I think we'd have to add something, but nothing too huge IMO.

What about Davidson or a pick instead of Nurse?

 

[EscapedGoat]

I think a base of RNH, Eberle, and Nurse for Landy and Barrie isn't awful. Again I think we'd have to add something, but nothing too huge IMO.

Wasn't it debated between fanbases that RNH for Barrie (before he signed) was fair? It was contested on both sides, which usually means it's close to fair value.

So that leaves Eberle and Nurse for Landy plus a prospect? Maybe I'm completely undervaluing the Oiler players, but another one dimensional player and a defensive prospect for the Avs current best two way forward and captain doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

 

[strictlyrandy]

In a thread where OP clearly states MacK is available because he in particular is dumber than dumb, and would not be given away, but would be considered for serious talent, not only is your statement not obvious, it is not conclusively clearly accurate.

Beyond Barrie and EJ, your backline corps is not getting confused with the Canes.

But even if you don't look at the best total deal, rejecting McD out of hand is foolish because:

he is a quality currency that would be welcome and useful on nearly every club

also, I said a core. I was thinking something like McD and Zuc, who is clearly top 6 either W, with reasonable add back to NY w/MacK

my academic prowess, incidentally, is respected by advocates and detractors alike
your childish retort is

A) The OP does not represent the entire fan base. In fact the majority of Avs fans (if not all) in this thread have contradicted what the OP has said. It's pretty clear that your reading comprehension is indeed poor if you are insisting that the OP does represent the entire fan base.

MacKinnon does not have poor hockey iq and is in reality a very intelligent hockey player. MacKinnon is not available.

B) No idea why you bring up the Canes. That you can only name EJ and Barrie only goes to prove that you know very little about the Avs. Zadorov is EJ's partner and he indeed belongs there. Wiercioch has been Barrie's and he looks pretty impressive in his role there. The bottom pairing is a revolving door and it quite frankly doesn't matter as McDonagh isn't a bottom pairing player and we have plenty of options available to play there.

C) Rejecting the deal is not foolish given that McDonagh is not a piece of need. Top 6 players are. We have Landeskog, Duchene, and MacKinnon that qualify. Trading from an area of weakness to address an area of strength is foolish. Even with the addition of Zucc (while a good player) does not fit in with the age of our core and is a bad fit. Especially with MacKinnon.

D) Even if you want to insist that the OP is correct and the Avs do indeed need a fire sale, the entire point would be to retool and get younger talent in the process. Your proposal does exactly the opposite of that.

E) If you're upset by a little sarcasm, maybe you should avoid the internet and the real world altogether.

F) Your posts are notoriously bad and are considered to be the butt of jokes on these boards. Eben NYR fans that frequent these boards find your posts laughably bad.

G) In short.. McDonagh for MacKinnon is absolutely terrible for the Avs and doesn't take any of their needs into consideration. As stated, contrary to the OP, MacKinnon isn't going to be traded. He is not a disappointment.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Wasn't it debated between fanbases that RNH for Barrie (before he signed) was fair? It was contested on both sides, which usually means it's close to fair value.

So that leaves Eberle and Nurse for Landy plus a prospect? Maybe I'm completely undervaluing the Oiler players, but another one dimensional player and a defensive prospect for the Avs current best two way forward and captain doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

I'm not saying a big add, Randy said adding someone like Henley, which would make sense to me. I think the first offer he had was pretty in favor of us. Granted not that a trade like this would ever happen IRL.

 

[strictlyrandy]

I'm not saying a big add, Randy said adding someone like Henley, which would make sense to me. I think the first offer he had was pretty in favor of us. Granted not that a trade like this would ever happen IRL.

Here's how I look at it:

Landy is roughly equal to RNH with Landy being the better overall player but RNH does play the more important position.

Barrie + Henley is equal to Eberle + 1st/Nurse.

It's certainly not insulting value wise to either team imo. It's a pretty fair blockbuster hockey trade.

 

[biturbo19]

EVERYONE else is available. MacKinnon is dumber than a doorknob. I wouldn't mind trading Landeskog too. EJ's age wouldn't fit into Avs re-rebuild. Varlamov too. Barrie doesn't belong in Bednar's system.

But word of warning, just because these players are available, does NOT mean you'll be able to get them for cheap. If we trade MacKinnon, we want a franchise player back, preferably one with some level of intelligence. Likewise with the rest.

Enjoy.

Why would some team want to trade a franchise player with some level of intelligence, for one without that as you describe MacKinnon?


That doesn't make much sense at all.


I kinda get if you think MacKinnon is maybe limited to being a good goal-scoring Winger longer term...if you think there's a team out there you can hoodwink into selling him for a true Center and a plus, maybe that makes sense. But that's still not a situation where you're likely to get back a surefire franchise player in return.

If Avs fans are that disenfranchised with MacKinnon already...are other teams going to want to cough up their own future in the form of "franchise players" for him in return?

 

[bernmeister]

....

A) The OP does not represent the entire fan base. In fact the majority of Avs fans (if not all) in this thread have contradicted what the OP has said. It's pretty clear that your reading comprehension is indeed poor if you are insisting that the OP does represent the entire fan base.

MacKinnon does not have poor hockey iq and is in reality a very intelligent hockey player. MacKinnon is not available.

never said OP represented everyone
your attempt to contort the facts to insult me further belittles you, not me
MacK remains a primo player, would spend for him otherwise.
The OP had a specific premise and I -- as well as others -- obliged by considering the premise, if for no other reason than as a courtesy, but apparently you and perhaps a couple of others ARE AFRAID to even address that ? with an open mind.

B) No idea why you bring up the Canes. That you can only name EJ and Barrie only goes to prove that you know very little about the Avs. Zadorov is EJ's partner and he indeed belongs there. Wiercioch has been Barrie's and he looks pretty impressive in his role there. The bottom pairing is a revolving door and it quite frankly doesn't matter as McDonagh isn't a bottom pairing player and we have plenty of options available to play there.

Canes were mentioned, obviously, because they have a wealth of stud, young core D. Pretending not to realize that, or that I correctly disparaged the depth of the Avs D by the comparison, is a trick that won't work. Barrie is primo. EJ not so much but still good. After that is growth in action, or a lot to be desired. Wiercioch is not impressive to say it kindly.

C) Rejecting the deal is not foolish given that McDonagh is not a piece of need. Top 6 players are. We have Landeskog, Duchene, and MacKinnon that qualify. Trading from an area of weakness to address an area of strength is foolish. Even with the addition of Zucc (while a good player) does not fit in with the age of our core and is a bad fit. Especially with MacKinnon.

It is not foolish.
It is just not the currency you want.
If that is the case, fine, say so clearly, but do not misrepresent things.

We have told - I would hope - Jets that McD is available, but only for enough inducement add, not Trouba straight up. Our position IMO is if we do fair value close 1 to 1, then it is Zuc for Trouba, and if they don't want the W, trade him for that LD he will return.

there is a parallel of that here
Zuc worth more than Barrie
MacK worth more than McD
it largely balances out, and you can flip either piece on the open market for a more preferred fit.

D) Even if you want to insist that the OP is correct and the Avs do indeed need a fire sale, the entire point would be to retool and get younger talent in the process. Your proposal does exactly the opposite of that.

disingenuous and wrong
McD. Zuc and Stepan are all the correct side of 30.
Are they older than counterparts 5ish years younger, duh.
but you can get younger if that is critical with that currency

proof is Jets want to do McDonagh for Trouba straight up or small add only.
Not enough, the market will pay more, so we might consider McD for T, but they gotta make it worth our while.
However, if you value things differently, you can take less and flip McD for Trouba, and get younger.

but that is unnecessary, McD's remaining term at a ridiculously sweet 4.7 COMMANDS league wide interest, sure you could find the guy(s) you want.

E) If you're upset by a little sarcasm, maybe you should avoid the internet and the real world altogether.

not the sarcasm, just not willing to take your crap unchallenged

F) Your posts are notoriously bad and are considered to be the butt of jokes on these boards. Eben NYR fans that frequent these boards find your posts laughably bad.

I'm happy to rely on my overall record - we all have made mistakes - regardless of ranger fan base criticism

cases in point
I said trade Girardi -- no, no he's a warrior
I said don't trade Kreider - no no he'll never realize his potential

So my ranger brethren and I disagree. In many instances, not all. So what.
Who was right about Girardi?
Who was right about Kreider?
ultimately I was and am

btw, I believe based on this, the base this slowly warming up to me.
Of course, there are still some who would NEVER trade Stepan, but, hey
time will attest to my judgment.

G) In short.. McDonagh for MacKinnon is absolutely terrible for the Avs and doesn't take any of their needs into consideration. As stated, contrary to the OP, MacKinnon isn't going to be traded. He is not a disappointment.

thank you for YOUR vote,
I am not sure NYR can do the reasonable overpay, not massive overpay, you want for MacK
ob la di, ob la da
life goes on

 

[strictlyrandy]

Why would some team want to trade a franchise player with some level of intelligence, for one without that as you describe MacKinnon?


That doesn't make much sense at all.


I kinda get if you think MacKinnon is maybe limited to being a good goal-scoring Winger longer term...if you think there's a team out there you can hoodwink into selling him for a true Center and a plus, maybe that makes sense. But that's still not a situation where you're likely to get back a surefire franchise player in return.

If Avs fans are that disenfranchised with MacKinnon already...are other teams going to want to cough up their own future in the form of "franchise players" for him in return?

Avs fans are not disenfranchised with MacKinnon. The OP is overreacting to a loss that wasn't even on MacKinnon. It was on the entire team. Avs are doing just fine.

 

[strictlyrandy]

Bern...

Stopped reading after you said EJ hasn't been good. Your entire post is discredited right there. EJ has been the best defenseman on the Avs followed by Zadorov. Barrie hasn't been stellar to start the year. You clearly don't know the Avs and refuse to listen to the fans who do know them. You've proven time and time again that you don't know what you are talking about.

Before you talk about the Avs maybe try knowing something about them.

Edit...

Couldn't help it, had to read what other misconceptions you had. If you think McDonagh for Trouba straight up is fair, then he is nowhere near the center piece for MacKinnon. You don't get it.. Avs do not want to nor do they need to trade MacKinnon. They need young top 6. They need more MacKinnon's. Not less. Also, Zucc is 29...he's too old for the core of the Avs..arguing he's on the right side of thirty is just dumb. He's going to be 30 by the start of next season which is when the Avs window should effectively be open.

You really didn't provide any solid counter arguments to my post. You merely blathered on about things you have limited to no knowledge of and did a pretty solid job of proving my points for me.

 

[El Travo]

My goodness Bern, just let it go. This thread is embarassing to read.

 

[AvsGuy]

debateable

and Mc for MacK as a core is a serious discussion, regardless of whether or not both sides agree to it

Well if one side doesn't agree with it, its not a very serious discussion is it?

 

[AvsGuy]

G) In short.. McDonagh for MacKinnon is absolutely terrible for the Avs and doesn't take any of their needs into consideration. As stated, contrary to the OP, MacKinnon isn't going to be traded. He is not a disappointment.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Moving out the stars is a really bad idea, unless you've got an insane return. Yeah, the stars can't carry a team with bad support, but you're not going to find guys who can, at least not without improbable luck. It's been years now where the Avs have been cheap with their wings and they've suffered for it. They've got to invest and make the team good. Move Bigras or something for a youngish 45 pt scorer, or take a risk on a vet who still produces (a Hartnell type, though he's not available now).

I think a little more depth like that would be huge. I really like Bednar and I think he can mold a winner if he gets half decent tools.

That's kind of what they have been trying to do. They took a chance on Iginla and Tanguay, as vets who still produce, but it didn't pan out exactly as hoped. They moved ROR in a deal that returned Grigorenko, Compher, Greer and Morrison, all guys who could potentially be that 45 pt scorer within the next 3-4 years. Landeskog is signed to a long term contract. Duchene can play wing, with Soderberg as the 2C.

Basically, the forward core is in the same situation the defense was in 1-2 years ago. We have guys in the pipeline who are probably 2-3 years away from being NHL regulars, but some of them look like they could end up being very good, if we let them develop properly.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

My goodness Bern, just let it go. This thread is embarassing to read.

Not because of Bern.

A) The OP does not represent the entire fan base. In fact the majority of Avs fans (if not all) in this thread have contradicted what the OP has said. It's pretty clear that your reading comprehension is indeed poor if you are insisting that the OP does represent the entire fan base.

MacKinnon does not have poor hockey iq and is in reality a very intelligent hockey player. MacKinnon is not available.

B) No idea why you bring up the Canes. That you can only name EJ and Barrie only goes to prove that you know very little about the Avs. Zadorov is EJ's partner and he indeed belongs there. Wiercioch has been Barrie's and he looks pretty impressive in his role there. The bottom pairing is a revolving door and it quite frankly doesn't matter as McDonagh isn't a bottom pairing player and we have plenty of options available to play there.

C) Rejecting the deal is not foolish given that McDonagh is not a piece of need. Top 6 players are. We have Landeskog, Duchene, and MacKinnon that qualify. Trading from an area of weakness to address an area of strength is foolish. Even with the addition of Zucc (while a good player) does not fit in with the age of our core and is a bad fit. Especially with MacKinnon.

D) Even if you want to insist that the OP is correct and the Avs do indeed need a fire sale, the entire point would be to retool and get younger talent in the process. Your proposal does exactly the opposite of that.

E) If you're upset by a little sarcasm, maybe you should avoid the internet and the real world altogether.

F) Your posts are notoriously bad and are considered to be the butt of jokes on these boards. Eben NYR fans that frequent these boards find your posts laughably bad.

G) In short.. McDonagh for MacKinnon is absolutely terrible for the Avs and doesn't take any of their needs into consideration. As stated, contrary to the OP, MacKinnon isn't going to be traded. He is not a disappointment.

MacKinnon for McDonagh would be perfectly fine for us. We might lack top 6 forwards, but we also lack a legit #1. McDonagh would be our best Dman and give us a consistent #1. If Mack doesn't in fact take the next step this would actually be a smart move on our part.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Not because of Bern.



MacKinnon for McDonagh would be perfectly fine for us. We might lack top 6 forwards, but we also lack a legit #1. McDonagh would be our best Dman and give us a consistent #1. If Mack doesn't in fact take the next step this would actually be a smart move on our part.

On the other hand, if MacKinnon does take the next step, after being traded, it would be yet another steal for the Rangers in a trade involving McDonagh.

 

[Drij]

lol why would you want to keep Rantanen? He hasn't even scored a NHL goal yet.

 

[strictlyrandy]

To the above points.. MacKinnon is only 21 years old. He's putting up respectable numbers on a team that was expected to have some growing pains in adapting to a new system. To call him a disappointment at 21 years old while he's adapting to a brand new coach and a brand new system is a discredit to him.

To get a more honest look at who the Avs are and a better evaluation of their talent, I'd say wait til the 20 game mark to see where they're at as they absolutely should be be firing on all cylinders at that point.

Also EJ has looked like an absolute #1 this year (small sample size and all). It appears that the arrival of Nolan Pratt has done wonders for EJ and Zadorov.

A trade for McDonagh where MacKinnon goes the other way is bad in that it doesn't address a need. The Avs need top 6, but then again, if you're trading away MacK, you're basically committed to selling off everything anyway and starting over.

The thread has had some good discussion between some Oilers and Avs fans. The wreck comes from the ridiculous overreacting from the OP and the ensuing low ball trade offers that we all expected to happen.

 

[strictlyrandy]

lol why would you want to keep Rantanen? He hasn't even scored a NHL goal yet.

But he's looked damn impressive while not scoring a goal!

Seriously, the kid is due. Overall he's looked like I expected..a rookie with a ton of promise and every bit the player the Avs wanted him to become so far. A 35-45 point rookie season is what I expect out of him as he adjusts to the NHL.