AV

[RangersHank*]

The smarter fans understand that personnel wins, not coaches. If this was not fact, good coaches would all remain with the same teams for as long as they wished. What is the average coaching span on a team in the NHL?

Yet, they all get fired. Very few last 5 years.

I don't think coaches are clueless. I think they are usually interchangeable. So far, AV has yet to display even that level here.

A lot of fans told me before the season that since we had gotten rid of the imbecile who held back his team offensively, that all would be far better. How has that thought process played out?

It should be obvious that personnel wins.

I agree, i didnt like the Torts firing at the time, i think we should have added to that 11-12 team or at least make better trades.

 

[chosen]

We lost to Boston because we let Torey Krug out of Michigan State run wild in the offensive zone, didn't put pressure on their young defensemen, and crapped our pants whenever we saw Chara.

Wow!

Someone believes that it was strategy that beat them against the Bruins.

If you really believe that, you must be one of the ones who is totally baffled by this year's team, to date.

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

Team being bad isn't his fault.

He's not a good coach, though. Even if we replaced him I don't think we'd do much better.

 

[Raspewtin]

Wow!

Someone believes that it was strategy that beat them against the Bruins.

If you really believe that, you must be one of the ones who is totally baffled by this year's team, to date.

What's your theory? Take away Torey Krug's easy goals and it's a totally different series.

 

[RangersHank*]

What's your theory? Take away Torey Krug's easy goals and it's a totally different series.

Word

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

What's your theory? Take away Torey Krug's easy goals and it's a totally different series.

Not that simple.

Pressure Krug and somebody is wreaking havoc in the slot or something. Under Torts, we beat Boston's offense by clogging the middle of our zone and forcing them to get shots through to Hank. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. It might be "stone age hockey" but it got us wins.

Bruins were a better team and it would've been nigh miraculous to beat them.

 

[Mikos87]

(1) I couldn't agree more. The star-studded Senators teams of the early-mid 2000s were largely internally developed. The organization drafted Hossa, Havlat, Redden, Alfredsson, Bonk and Fisher (just to name a few); Martin developed them. If memory serves me right, and I hope it does, Chara was just a top-six defenseman when he got to Ottawa; Jacques Martin developed him into a first-pairing defenseman. Just two of the aforementioned players (Redden and Bonk) were even top-ten picks*. Which brings me to the following question: Why do we insist on going after UFA after UFA?

(2) Absolutely.



*Bonk was 3rd overall (1994); Alfredsson was 133rd overall (1994); Redden was 2nd overall (1995); Hossa was 12th overall (1998); Fisher was 44th overall (1998); Havlat was 26th overall (1999). Chara was 56th overall (1996). Source: individual player Wikipedia entries.

Back in the dark years, I'd watch and follow the Sens during the playoffs after the Rangers annual golf season started. Martin was a defensive minded coach, and one that relied so heavily on his system, that lesser teams repeatedly beat them in 7 game series, and every time fans on the other teams would gloat intangibles such as toughness, and will, and grit, and intimidation. Things that did not show up on the stat sheet, but the style of play that was employed by the other team.

Mainly Pat Quinn would let his boys just goon it up and sure enough the series would turn into a match up of will. A war of attrition. Some coaches cannot win in those environments. For example Bruce Boudreau is 2 more playoff flops away from being labeled as a guy like that. All that talent and never made it to the conference finals.

To answer your question, I think it befalls upon the GM to identify and re-sign his own players, one that the organization identifies as their own prior to hitting the open market. Show the players you are committed to them if you believe they will play hard for you so you don't lose that asset.

I am of the opinion that Sather is lazy and on the links when he should be working the phones and taking care of internal personnel matters, and externally making his team better.

What happens is that they are dumb enough to forgo the human and team factor of sustaining or replacing chemistry, and theorize that an UFA can fill that role.

The signings that Sather flops on are for the 3rd and 4th line, and this practice of UFA role players has failed every single time outside of Ruslan Fedetenko for 13 Years.

The root of it is that Sather doesn't seem to understand that you can't find bargain basement value in the UFA market. Unlike the NYR, teams re-sign those guys before they hit the open market.

Outside of college free agents, and late bloomers the UFA market is hardly ever littered with home runs. It's usually proven athletes, often aging, that are being bid on and thus earning more money than they are worth. It has always been that way, and will be that way, and the numbers will only climb.

Everyone knows that you Over-Pay with UFAs, and when guys don't owe anything to the team or the organization... well having purchasing power in NYC can translate to a very high quality of life for an athlete. Where would the incentive to go the extra mile be?

 

[cd211]

coaches job is to get the most out f his players and adopt to your personal.. you got to work to your strengths..AV doesnt and hasn't adopted to his team and their strengths.. coaching is everything.. and yes i think with solid coaching we couldv'e beaten bruins in a 7 game series..

av has made nothing but excuses.. he may last this year but i doubt this kind of effort will last into this time next year..

 

[TheRightWay]

coaches job is to get the most out f his players and adopt to your personal.. you got to work to your strengths..AV doesnt and hasn't adopted to his team and their strengths.. coaching is everything.. and yes i think with solid coaching we couldv'e beaten bruins in a 7 game series..

av has made nothing but excuses.. he may last this year but i doubt this kind of effort will last into this time next year..

Please enlighten us as to what our "strengths" are. Our only hope is that Nash and Hank play at their absolute best and then a few other guys get streaky. That's it. We've had one successful team in the last decade. What's more likely, that coaching simply isn't getting the best out of the rosters or that the rosters just aren't good enough?

 

[Cake or Death]

AV does not seem to be doing a great job, but he is coming as advertised by anyone who saw him coach in Vancouver. To the folks who think he got surprised by this roster, he himself has said he knew what he was getting into and is not surprised by it. He's not 7 years old and he's one of the highest paid coaches in the league: we don't need to make lame excuses for him.

Most of what's going on has to fall on the players. If they play like ****, have a closed door meeting, and then come out exactly the same way the next few games, that's not acceptable and that's on the players. Also, a teams' best players need to be the best players. If you see guys earning in the 7.8-9 million range, like Nash and Richards are this season, and they're not doing **** all out there, it kills morale. Those are the guys who are supposed to execute, lead and instill confidence on the ice. When Hank is lights out season after season and is totally average this season, how is that on the coaches? When Nash and Richards are paid what they're paid and are scoring like 5 million dollar players, it's on the players. Nash wants to go and negotiate a $7.8 million a year deal? Fine. But f-in work your tail off and produce like a top tier player then. Richards gets 12 mil last season and 9 this season? Great, then work your ass off relentlessly and do your best to play up to the damn contract.

People here can complain all they want about Pouliot being an anomaly, but he's scoring third line pts on a third line salary. Our best players need to step the **** up, regardless of who the coach is. I'm tired of watching MZA work three times as hard as forwards making 3-8 million more than him. Nash is getting paid 7.8 mil and Brad Richards is getting paid 9 million f-in dollars this season. Our best players need to step it up big time. And to hell with excuses or blaming crappy efforts on coaches.

 

[Ail]

He hasn't turned diarrhea in to gold within the first half-a-season he has been employed. Hang him from Times Square!

Burn the AV, it's all his fault!

Also, as far as I can surmise, Kel is saying the same things about AV that others were saying about Torts ironically to make a point.

 

[Callagraves]

If you ask me, he can't be gone soon enough.

 

[mrmyheadhurts]

Thought I'd weigh in.

I feel bad for AV for how Sather sold him to the media and fans. When Sather was talking about the hiring of AV, my mouth was on the floor; he seemed to have no idea who AV is as a coach. AV is, and has always been a conservative defence first coach. The push for a more offensive style came from Gillis and AV did an admirable job of adapting but you could see him doubting it after the Cup loss and the following 2 seasons. The team was getting more and more conservative as AV went back to his comfort zone. While he isn't a passive coach, he is definitely a conservative one.

You have to remember that AV had a very talented roster and two Super-stars in their prime when the Canucks were scoring all those goals. AV of course can take credit for some of that too but he had a lot to work with and a locker room with a lot of leadership that ran the room.

I like AV and am rooting for him to do well, but he was unfortunately sold by Sather as something he's not. He can be a great coach for you guys but peoples expectations of him being this high octane offensive coach need to be thrown out.

 

[cd211]

Please enlighten us as to what our "strengths" are. Our only hope is that Nash and Hank play at their absolute best and then a few other guys get streaky. That's it. We've had one successful team in the last decade. What's more likely, that coaching simply isn't getting the best out of the rosters or that the rosters just aren't good enough?

we've made it to the secnd round of the playoffs the past couple years with the core of this team, thats success, but not the ultimate goal.. our strengths is dfence and goaltending.. yeah we're struggling now but you can simplify your game to limit mistakes, risk and chances.. don't tell me coaching isn't everything bc it deff is.. putting players in places to succeed and being a motivator to push your players to always strive to be better is what you need..

you guys live in lala land about easy fixes and trade players and all this nonsense..

this league is tough, every team can beat any team at any given time.. the only thing that sets good teams apart from average is consistency and staying on top of their game..

devils have such an average roster at best and look how successful they've been

col has had rough times the past few years and look at their success this year..

bos barely has 60pt players but 2 amazing 2way centers and play an awesome dfensive game..

but we need more top end talent.. give it a break..dudes need to grow a pair and coaching needs to get better..

every good coach plays to their teams strengths and adapts to their personnel

 

[CanuckPirate]

Thought I'd weigh in.

I feel bad for AV for how Sather sold him to the media and fans. When Sather was talking about the hiring of AV, my mouth was on the floor; he seemed to have no idea who AV is as a coach. AV is, and has always been a conservative defence first coach. The push for a more offensive style came from Gillis and AV did an admirable job of adapting but you could see him doubting it after the Cup loss and the following 2 seasons. The team was getting more and more conservative as AV went back to his comfort zone. While he isn't a passive coach, he is definitely a conservative one.

You have to remember that AV had a very talented roster and two Super-stars in their prime when the Canucks were scoring all those goals. AV of course can take credit for some of that too but he had a lot to work with and a locker room with a lot of leadership that ran the room.

I like AV and am rooting for him to do well, but he was unfortunately sold by Sather as something he's not. He can be a great coach for you guys but peoples expectations of him being this high octane offensive coach need to be thrown out.

This is all 100 percent true. I've been reading this forum out of curiousity to see how AV has been doing with you guys. Many of you have been repeating this odd notion that AV is an offensive minded coach, whoever told you that lied to you. When he first started coaching the canucks he had them playing one of the most boring styles of hockey I have ever seen. It resembled the Wild and the Devils from the early 2000s. When Nonis was eventually fired and Gillis replaced him, Gillis made a big deal about wanting the canucks to play an offensive style. AV had to convince Gillis that he could coach that way. This continued for a few years but like Mrmyheadhurts said after the loss in 2011 AV seemed to lose confidence in this style. I'm guessing that he has convinced Sather, like he convinced Gillis, that he can coach an offensive style but it wouldn't surprise me to see him revert back to his defensive ways if you guys keep losing.

 

[TheTakedown]

This is all 100 percent true. I've been reading this forum out of curiousity to see how AV has been doing with you guys. Many of you have been repeating this odd notion that AV is an offensive minded coach, whoever told you that lied to you. When he first started coaching the canucks he had them playing one of the most boring styles of hockey I have ever seen. It resembled the Wild and the Devils from the early 2000s. When Nonis was eventually fired and Gillis replaced him, Gillis made a big deal about wanting the canucks to play an offensive style. AV had to convince Gillis that he could coach that way. This continued for a few years but like Mrmyheadhurts said after the loss in 2011 AV seemed to lose confidence in this style. I'm guessing that he has convinced Sather, like he convinced Gillis, that he can coach an offensive style but it wouldn't surprise me to see him revert back to his defensive ways if you guys keep losing.

Well If that is the case then he has two solid defensemen to build a team around... MCD and G are some of the best players in the league in their positions.

I remember someone posting this exact viewpoint when av was hired...

I wonder what will actually happen. I'm chill with a defensive style of hockey as long as we come up with skill players that can actually do something with the puck

 

[The Lunatic Fridge]

He hasn't turned diarrhea in to gold within the first half-a-season he has been employed. Hang him from Times Square!

Burn the AV, it's all his fault!

Also, as far as I can surmise, Kel is saying the same things about AV that others were saying about Torts ironically to make a point.

He couldn't overcome adversity with the sedins and co every time he was faced with it (not even necesserly playoffs) why should we sit here for a season and see if he does any better with a roster whom he self proclaimed as not skilled enough to run his system?

 

[Ail]

He couldn't overcome adversity with the sedins and co every time he was faced with it (not even necesserly playoffs) why should we sit here for a season and see if he does any better with a roster whom he self proclaimed as not skilled enough to run his system?

Torts never overcame the adversity of the NJ Devils or the Boston Bruins or the Flyers in the shootout, and he had his roster at the end of it.

The reality is 29 coaches a year don't overcome adversity when faced with it.

I don't even like the guy but how many coaches are they going to fire and hire? I don't want a coach who is going to milk a bad roster fof more than they are worth. I want Glen Sather to build us a god damn team who doesn't suck for once. I want to be excited when they play. I cheered for less than 5 goals this year out of sheer joy. That's criminal. I hate this team outside of a few players and that's not AV's fault.

 

[KreiMeARiver*]

AV should have NEVER been hired

AV was the WRONG coach for this team

AV is NOT doing a good job with this team

AV needs to GO

It's not his fault he did get hired, but it is his fault that he didn't watch any film this summer, and has created an Augusta-National-esque atmosphere.

Fire this clown and hire Laviolette...

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Not thrilled with AV. There are times when he should show some emotion, anything and he doesnt. Had the same type of beef with Renney was here. This is NY. He shoudlve flipped out on that PS call and maybe even the Janssens one. But in the greater scheme of things I dont think that makes much of a difference.

What does is what's done behind closed doorsand the decisions he makes during the game. I'm not convinced he's doing that great of a job, but I see the issue with the team being greater than the coach.

 

[Blueblood 2]

AV should have NEVER been hired

AV was the WRONG coach for this team

AV is NOT doing a good job with this team

AV needs to GO

It's not his fault he did get hired, but it is his fault that he didn't watch any film this summer, and has created an Augusta-National-esque atmosphere.

Fire this clown and hire Laviolette...

Guess the solution is getting "patrons" in the stands and on the blogs, instead of fans!

 

[KreiMeARiver*]

Not thrilled with AV. There are times when he should show some emotion, anything and he doesnt. Had the same type of beef with Renney was here. This is NY. He shoudlve flipped out on that PS call and maybe even the Janssens one. But in the greater scheme of things I dont think that makes much of a difference.

What does is what's done behind closed doorsand the decisions he makes during the game. I'm not convinced he's doing that great of a job, but I see the issue with the team being greater than the coach.

This whole post is spot-on. I LOVED the emotion that Torts showed. These guys are millionaires, and have to be held accountable.

Like you said, this is NY. The blasé attitude isn't going to fly, here.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

My biggest concern with AV is the exact same one I had when he was being discussed as a candidate.

His ability to emotionally prepare a team. The Sedins are superstars. Potentially still underrated. They will give you 20 min a night of offensive pressure on their own. Yet the Canucks were consistently regular season champs, playoff chokers.

To this point he has done nothing to sway that concern. He has brough good things too. But I just don't have faith in this team's ability to get up for big games, lock it down when they need to, or fight back when they need to.

And now everyone wants to jettison the players known for doing that (Callahan, Girardi, Staal, Boyle to a lesser extent). I get the theory and admit I can see the sense. Deal players on the decline, maximize value. I have major doubts about how reality will look after it all plays out. I have major doubts about the kind of players that will be targeted to fill their shoes.

Ps - The Rangers need to play man d! Do they?

 

[OverTheCap]

Obviously the problems on this team extend far beyond AV, but his "clean slate" approach was probably not a good idea. If he watched more tape and studied the players over the summer, he would have had a better feel for the limitations and capabilities of the personnel. Then perhaps the team could have transitioned and eased slowly into the new system (or maybe not have switched to man defense until he gets the proper personnel for it).

As Rangers fans know, and what AV is now finding out, is that Sather and management aren't always the best talent evaluators and sometimes they will overstate the potential of players on the team. Every coach needs to see the players with their own eyes instead of trusting what the organization says. Management already misrepresented what type of player Del Zotto is and now he and AV don't have the best relationship. Going forward, I hope AV and the coaching staff do their own research.

 

[Trxjw]

I think people forget how much impact AV had on the development of the Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Edler, Bieksa, etc. It's not like he was handed a bunch of elite veteran talent and went along for the ride. He molded quite a few very good players.

For all of the grief he gets for not being able to motivate these players, I have a hard time faulting him for it. This is basically the same core of players who quit on Renney and then got their last coach ****-canned as well. I don't see the point in building a team around a group who seems to rely solely upon the coaching staff to get them motivated. If it really is a country club attitude again, then we have to start looking at the guys who have been here the whole time. Cally, Girardi, Staal, Hank, etc. On the other hand, if it was a result of bringing in guys like Richards and Nash, then I have to question the same group once again for caving to a couple of mercenaries who cash big paychecks.

I applaud Torts for getting the most out of a mediocre roster, but guys like that have a shelf life. They're supposed to push teams over the top. IMO, AV is a good coach for ushering in a new era for this team, the same way Renney did. The real blame lies with Sather for misreading the team in the summer of 2012, misreading what he had this summer, and catering to the players wishes. That being said, I don't think Tortorella would have gotten much out of this group of players either. If they checked out at the end of last year, they wouldn't have responded to him at all this season.