AV

[Clausewitz]

His regular season success in Vancouver was admirable. But he needs to understand that our roster, in terms of skill as well as character, differs greatly from Vancouver's. I'm just going to echo what so many of us have already said: he's inflexible and, despite his previous successes, not the coach some of us (including me) expected. I will admit, though, that it would have been interesting to see how Gabby would have responded to him ...

 

[TollefsenFan]

I like AV. Kreider and Zucc has taken huge steps and become better players, while torts put them on the 4th line/scratched them/ sent them to the ahl. In fact Torts has done nothing when it comes to developing offensive players. He only cared about dump and Chase + blocking shots. Avs did a fine job in Vancouver and i believe he will make the rangers a contender.

Its not Avs fault that Nash is lazy, that Staal is injured all the time or the fact that Callahan is a Third liner and nothing more. Scratch Nash is dumb. U have one true first liner. Only one. U dnt scratch the one rly good offensive player no matter how bad he is.

This team hasnt one skilled offensive D. We are like the only team in the League With 6 stay at home Ds. And u complain about offense? Are u guys watching the games? McD is the best two way d on the team, but he is best in the defensive zone. Girardi, Strålman, MDZ 2013, Staal, Falk, Moore etc bring little or no offense at all. Thats the problem. Not the Coach. We need an offensive D, a first line center, A feds copy cat and an enforcer.

I would agree With u if Our roster was good and coaching bad. But this roster is terrible and even the Oilers got more skill than us. Alot more skill.

 

[TollefsenFan]

His regular season success in Vancouver was admirable. But he needs to understand that our roster, in terms of skill as well as character, differs greatly from Vancouver's. I'm just going to echo what so many of us have already said: he's inflexible and, despite his previous successes, not the coach some of us (including me) expected. I will admit, though, that it would have been interesting to see how Gabby would have responded to him ...

He reached the Stanley cup final. So he is not as bad as some posters think. Fans are just to negative. Even if the rangers beat the Islanders 3-2 People would complain about Lundqvist, McD and Avs coaching style. The Pyatt = avs hahah rly funny not

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

AV literally has almost the identical record Torts had at this point in Torts' first full season. At this point in Torts' first full season, the Rangers had just finished losing 8 out of 9 games, would have 9 separate losing streaks of 3-5 games and didn't make the playoffs. I fully understand where you're coming from, but did you also advocate firing Tortorella after this few games? Like when the Rangers were 14-16-3 under Torts, looked like total crap, and had just lost 8 of 9, which included the embarrassing 8-3 loss to the Pens? Did you advocate firing Torts that season during the 2 win 8 loss run in January? Torts had that team under .500 till mid Feb... were you calling for his head, too?

Cool, give AV a few years as he adopts are more defensive style, then have sather fire him because the team doesn't score enough goals or play pretty enough hockey. Where have we seen this before?

 

[JohnC]

Lolz Kel Varnsen typical

If this team was being coached by Torts right now he wouldn't bat an eye or care enough to make a thread

 

[wolfgaze]

You don't build a roster around a coach. If you do, when the coach stops being effective and the players stop responding to him - then you're stuck with a roster that was built around a particular individual's strategy / game-plan.... You don't manage a team like that.... The GM/Management needs to construct a roster according to their preference/style and then find a suitable coach who can manage that roster.... The talk of creating a roster that caters to AV's style/strategy is silly... If he's not suited for managing this roster then find an indvidual who can work with it.... Our defense looks like **** and our team has no identity out on the ice.

 

[aufheben]

How fast do people except a coach to adjust to a crappy roster? Safe is death ring a bell? The real clown is Sather, and anyone who doesn't see that is riding shotgun in his little car. Beep beep.

 

[Blueblood 2]

There should be an award for the happiest most successful fired coaches each year. Torts and Ruff would fight it out till the bitter end. Sather lost this coaching trade big time. We watch the results every game. Anybody see the emotional Torts last night grinning and pumping his fist after a shootout win against Chicago? The guy hates shootouts but he was fired up. AV would gobble another wad of gum.

 

[TheRightWay]

You don't build a roster around a coach. If you do, when the coach stops being effective and the players stop responding to him - then you're stuck with a roster that was built around a particular individual's strategy / game-plan.... You don't manage a team like that.... The GM/Management needs to construct a roster according to their preference/style and then find a suitable coach who can manage that roster.... The talk of creating a roster that caters to AV's style/strategy is silly... If he's not suited for managing this roster then find an indvidual who can work with it.... Our defense looks like **** and our team has no identity out on the ice.

The problem isn't that the roster isn't suited for AV. The problem is that the roster isn't suited for success in general. The team needs to get better. With that in mind, why wouldn't you aim to acquire players more conducive to the system?

 

[Raspewtin]

In hindsight, what we expected sort of happened. Players that can play the system are flourishing big (Zucc, McDonagh, Hagelin, Kreider), but the players that can't are not doing well. And by not doing well, I mean playing really ****ing bad. I NEVER expected Girardi, Callahan and the others to just forget how to hockey like they have. Their drop off is just not excusable, the Torts players look like they've never played in the NHL, I don't even know what explanation there is for that.

And I'm sorry but I don't want to hear AV should be adapting. He comes in here, being told to play his game, and now he shouldn't because that ****ing clown in the GM position can't get him personnel that can play it. I have no ****ing wonders on why he lost faith in this **** team. Not only are they not skilled at all, they're uninspired and lifeless. We saw a telltale warning sign in them just giving up against Boston, and now it's in full effect.

AV is literally 15-20% of the problem. MAYBE.

I ****ing hated that Torts had to adapt in 2009, and I hate that AV has to now.

**** this organization. **** all of it.

 

[Off Sides]

AV literally has almost the identical record Torts had at this point in Torts' first full season. At this point in Torts' first full season, the Rangers had just finished losing 8 out of 9 games, would have 9 separate losing streaks of 3-5 games and didn't make the playoffs. I fully understand where you're coming from, but did you also advocate firing Tortorella after this few games? Like when the Rangers were 14-16-3 under Torts, looked like total crap, and had just lost 8 of 9, which included the embarrassing 8-3 loss to the Pens? Did you advocate firing Torts that season during the 2 win 8 loss run in January? Torts had that team under .500 till mid Feb... were you calling for his head, too?

This,

I think the Rangers will probably get better this year, especially in their division,, but they still stink in terms of contention.

Management needs to go. Other than Lundqvist, Nash and to a point McD, Stepan, and Kreider at their best, they have nothing special on the whole team. In Sather's case that is 13-14 years and 1 to 5 decent/good/special players? That's just not good enough

 

[Kel Varnsen]

How do you play the game when you have an unskilled group of forwards? Is it the Muckler way? The Low way? The Trottier way? The Renney way? The Tortorella way? In the last decade or so we've had one season of any true success worth noting. How many coaches do we need to go through before we stop blaming the coaching? You could give Scotty Bowman this ****show of a team and it would still go nowhere.

#therightway

But seriously, what we called "the right way". Tight checking, less risky play with the puck, collapse down low. That's the basics of how to win with an unskilled forward group. You have to outwork when you can't outskill.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Wouldn't the answer be to build a team that can actually win playing an offensive game, rather than having a coach who is good at squeezing the max amount of performance out of a low-talent team?
We've done this every year. All it does is hide the serious flaws in a poorly constructed team that is mediocre at best, no matter who is coaching.
It just hinders any real progress. We're not winning a cup that way.

The fact that this is a poorly constructed team doesn't mean it can't also be coached poorly. This thread is to talk about the poor coaching part of the equation coming from AV the clown.

 

[DekeR]

Thirteen years of inconsistent, unbalanced and unidentifiable team identity has got to come to an end. You can't blame the coach when the product given is garbage. How many years has it been since we had a legitimate 1st line. That alone is pitiful and inexcusable.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

It's a joke. He isn't adapting. But, it all comes down to the GM. He knew what AV wanted to implement.

Now you know why Tortorella played the system he did.

This is overlooked way too much. Torts came in here as an offensive guy, safe is death, but he recognized that wasn't going to work with the group he had here and changed his system to match the strengths of his current roster. Who cares what Sather wanted in theory? Sather thought he was dumping the defensive minded Renney for an offensive minded Torts. Torts had enough confidence in himself to do what he thought would win games, and not what he thought his idiot GM wanted him to try to do against all common sense and reason.

 

[Florida Ranger]

I'm all for keeping AV, don't get me wrong. He deserves his fair shot.

But the team's going to end up in a a similar position with Torts: defense first. Unless something drastic happens with management/finding an offensive superstar(s).

 

[Kreider Typical]

I don't think the problem is the group being under-skilled. They're just under-motivated and mismanaged.

We have a lot of skill on this team, AV doesn't know how to utilize it. He doesn't know how to adjust the system. He's worse than Torts was except these kids are all babied so much that Vig's attitude grew thin the day they got there. They're used to Torts deflecting blame to the media, not calling out the goalie 2 games into the season. It's a trash...

Look at the speed of the team. We have some of the fastest skaters in the entire league on this team in McDonagh, Hagelin, and Kreider... They don't win races in this system, they look awful. It was a motivation issue with Torts "losing the room". Guess what, room hasn't been found, that's Vig's fault and Cally's. Vigs was probably a bad choice when he came here. Still is a bad choice. Team needs somebody they respect. Not another guy that has shifty attitudes.

Should've just gone after the devil himself, Monty Burns Pierre Mcguire...!

I'm wondering if Mess actually would've been a good choice.. or would this unmotivated group hate him and make him look bad, too?

 

[Mikos87]

His regular season success in Vancouver was admirable. But he needs to understand that our roster, in terms of skill as well as character, differs greatly from Vancouver's. I'm just going to echo what so many of us have already said: he's inflexible and, despite his previous successes, not the coach some of us (including me) expected. I will admit, though, that it would have been interesting to see how Gabby would have responded to him ...

You know thinking about it, how many of Vancouver's points come against EDM and CAL in the old division set up?

I'm in the same boat as you are in thinking that he isn't the coach a lot of Ranger fans expected. He strikes me as a bit of a contrarian; one whose stubborn to the point where he it comes off as his intellect outweighs collective or conventional wisdom.

The book on him is that he is a match up guru that really knows how to dictate situational play. I've been greatly displeased with him since preseason to be honest, but given the long road trip to start the season, and no home games, I wanted to see what he could do with the last change.

We are now in the midst of record 9 game homestand, and all things being considered, this team looks like it's collapsing. This has the makings of a sinking ship, and the captain of the ship is not doing a good job of steering the rudder straight. He's had the last change, and that hasn't translated to wins.

In my mind he went out of his way to prove he isn't Torts, and ruined what was once in that locker room. The guys AV banked on, the Brassards, and the Pouliots, the Dominic Moores, aren't good or consistent enough to be a part of a winning cause, and frail that they lose physical battle and get out-muscled. Rather than maximizing the known quantities that this team had, he's gone all frou frou, and produce pou pou.

He doesn't know what he's working with because he's admitted that he didn't scout the team during the entire off-season.

By catering his style of play to these scrubs, he's alienated himself from the non-skill hard working guys, who now appear useless in his system, and all this during their contract years. The Boyles, Callahans, and Girardi's.

Meanwhile the guys that thrive in his system are either indifferent, or scoring enough for contracts, but the team keeps losing.

My question is, how does a seemingly articulate and intelligent coach, publicly acknowledge that he doesn't have the right personnel for his system, continue to play said system, to middling and failing results?

Is this some sort of hissy fit to prove a point?

Instead of saying making comments about his personnel, or how he wishes he was coaching Detroit, I think the politest way to put it is that AV simply isn't a coach made for New York.

 

[Mikos87]

I'm wondering if Mess actually would've been a good choice.. or would this unmotivated group hate him and make him look bad, too?

With Mess I think other coaches would have nights where they definitely outclass him in a match up game. But effort, and defending your teammates and playing with honor would definitely been on full display.

IE All players would have played for this coach. Remember Mess had a lot of practice time working with the kids, and centers when Torts was coaching here, so there is that established relationship. Plus his work with the brass means he knew the players in the organization.

You know if it gets ugly, and it sure does look that way. The only way to sell a rebuild is through Messier. Otherwise the Garden will have nothing as far as the Rangers go for a long stretch of games.

If this is a lost season, I'd love to see Cally and G get traded as rentals and sign back in the off-season after helping the org stock up on depth and 1st rounders. Maybe an influence like Mess can facilitate that.

Hell in one year the Rangers can sign Prust and Dubinsky to speed the rebuild up. Get the gang back together with a juiced up core.

 

[chosen]

Let's recap exactly what occurred this summer.

Glen Sather fires John Tortorella, with many issues to discern through but Glen Sather's biggest justification being that he wanted a different style of hockey. One focusing more on puck possession and an open flowing, offensive mindset.

Glen Sather hires Alain Vigneault, a guy who, with a roster built for puck possession and dynamic offensive movement, had much success with the Vancouver Canucks. Glen hires him with this in mind, hoping he can help turn the Rangers into that style of team.

You now want Alain Vigneault to "adjust" and move away from the style he was specifically hired for and which he specifically specializes in so that he can move back to the very style of play that Glen Sather fired John Tortorella for in the first place? A style of play that, aside from one season, Tortorella had no success beyond a few 6-8 seeds and early playoff exits?

The bolded part is exactly what I always want from my coach. Exactly.

We all understand that Sather is a buffoon. That said, AV should not have even taken the job if he planned to use a system that his roster could not excel at.

Just because Sather is an idiot, does not excuse AV for being an idiot.

Sather did not fire Torts because he didn't like his coaching style. Anyone who believes that is missing the truth. He fired him because of the results and primarily to mask the truth, that Sather is useless. All GMs knock off the coach if they sense the pressure getting to close to their wallet.

 

[chosen]

In fact Torts has done nothing when it comes to developing offensive players.

Stepan had a better year under Torts than Kreider or Zucc is having this year under AV.

This is not a defense of Torts. It merely refutes your theory.

 

[Mikos87]

Sather did not fire Torts because he didn't like his coaching style. Anyone who believes that is missing the truth. He fired him because of the results and primarily to mask the truth, that Sather is useless. All GMs knock off the coach if they sense the pressure getting to close to their wallet.

Torts was fired for a multitude of reasons, and the big one because he became bigger than the team in how the media portrayed the Rangers. Tortorella was bigger than the team last year, and for a multimedia empire that is a no-no.

MSG's product, MSG's network comes first, and when you add to that Torts was arrogant and didn't treat anyone who disagreed with him with a lot of respect to say the least, well some of that non-hockey stuff is on Torts, and he acknowledged as much throughout the off-season.

 

[Clausewitz]

You know thinking about it, how many of Vancouver's points come against EDM and CAL in the old division set up?

I'm in the same boat as you are in thinking that he isn't the coach a lot of Ranger fans expected. He strikes me as a bit of a contrarian; one whose stubborn to the point where he it comes off as his intellect outweighs collective or conventional wisdom.

The book on him is that he is a match up guru that really knows how to dictate situational play. I've been greatly displeased with him since preseason to be honest, but given the long road trip to start the season, and no home games, I wanted to see what he could do with the last change.

We are now in the midst of record 9 game homestand, and all things being considered, this team looks like it's collapsing. This has the makings of a sinking ship, and the captain of the ship is not doing a good job of steering the rudder straight. He's had the last change, and that hasn't translated to wins.

In my mind he went out of his way to prove he isn't Torts, and ruined what was once in that locker room. The guys AV banked on, the Brassards, and the Pouliots, the Dominic Moores, aren't good or consistent enough to be a part of a winning cause, and frail that they lose physical battle and get out-muscled. Rather than maximizing the known quantities that this team had, he's gone all frou frou, and produce pou pou.

He doesn't know what he's working with because he's admitted that he didn't scout the team during the entire off-season.

By catering his style of play to these scrubs, he's alienated himself from the non-skill hard working guys, who now appear useless in his system, and all this during their contract years. The Boyles, Callahans, and Girardi's.

Meanwhile the guys that thrive in his system are either indifferent, or scoring enough for contracts, but the team keeps losing.

My question is, how does a seemingly articulate and intelligent coach, publicly acknowledge that he doesn't have the right personnel for his system, continue to play said system, to middling and failing results?

Is this some sort of hissy fit to prove a point?

Instead of saying making comments about his personnel, or how he wishes he was coaching Detroit, I think the politest way to put it is that AV simply isn't a coach made for New York.

You make a compelling argument. And, in light of your observations, I have to wonder: What expectations / relationship did Slats lay out to AV? Maybe Slats (who does, after all, have his job for life) said: "The players are tired of the old system. So are the fans. How about this: I'll give you two years to get things in order. Do what you do, and I'll support you any way I can, within reason. For now, though, focus on teaching and instilling your style."

I'm not by any means claiming that Slats actually said that to AV, but such an exchange doesn't seem unrealistic, and it would fall in line with your argument. Like you said, he's an intelligent coach, so I doubt he'd simply reflexively focus on being Tort's antithesis -- rather than producing results. After all: it's not unprecedented for a GM to (however reluctantly) accept a poor first season from a new coach -- as long as the team returns to form the following season.

For better or for worse, though, I confess that AV reminds me an awful lot of Jacques Martin (especially during the Senators years).

 

[Clausewitz]

He reached the Stanley cup final. So he is not as bad as some posters think. Fans are just to negative. Even if the rangers beat the Islanders 3-2 People would complain about Lundqvist, McD and Avs coaching style. The Pyatt = avs hahah rly funny not

Good point; I forgot about that run.

Back to the Rangers, though, I'm not complaining about AV as much as I'm concerned about his impact on the team. In other words, I'm not complaining about the lines he assembles, or which goalie he chooses to start each game. What does worry me, though, is the way our coach deals with situations. Publicly complaining about one's roster, for example, is (in my humble opinion) simply unprofessional; that's a discussion to have with players and/or the GM. I understand the sentiment. But (again in my humble opinion) that's not an adequate way to handle such a delicate situation.

 

[OverTheCap]

What some people don't realize is that Sather is incapable of finding skilled high IQ players for AV's system. It's much easier said than done to acquire these type of players - why hasn't Sather found these players already? The Rangers have ranked in the top 10 for offense only once during his reign of terror, and that was before the salary cap was implemented.

If the organization wants to play the system that AV requires, then Sather cannot be the one making the personnel decisions. In the interim, AV may have to adjust to get the most out of the players on thi roster.