AV

[StepansLabyrinth]

What some people don't realize is that Sather is incapable of finding skilled high IQ players for AV's system. It's much easier said than done to acquire these type of players - why hasn't Sather found these players already? The Rangers have ranked in the top 10 for offense only once during his reign of terror, and that was before the salary cap was implemented.

If the organization wants to play the system that AV requires, then Sather cannot be the one making the personnel decisions. In the interim, AV may have to adjust to get the most out of the players on thi roster.

Nash, MZA, Kreider, Stepan... That's 4 out of your top 6.
Hagelin, Kristo, Miller, Dorsett, Fast, Lindberg... That should be most of a bottom 6.

Nash-Stepan-???
Kreider-???-MZA
Kristo-Miller-Hagelin
Fast-Lindberg-Dorsett

If you use Callahan, Boyle, Girardi, etc. to acquire a top 6 winger/center, you could fill in the rest with astute FA signings. I actually like Stastny as a passing center hitting free agency at a somewhat youngish FA age. He's going to be overpaid for sure but I like my centers to be a playmaker and Stasny is defintely that. I definitely value team skating but I think it's more important in wingers so I'm not too concerned about his (lack of) skating speed.

The question is whether or not you can use Callahan, Boyle, Girardi to acquire a youngish winger that can score and that either is a good skater or has size. Callahan is our best player in front of the net on the PP, losing him will create a opening. Potentially Kreider can be used there, though. I'd look at names like Brandon Pirri, Jeremy Morin, and Emerson Etem. All intriguing players from teams that might be looking to buy at the deadline.

 

[Cake or Death]

Cool, give AV a few years as he adopts are more defensive style, then have sather fire him because the team doesn't score enough goals or play pretty enough hockey. Where have we seen this before?

Did I somewhere in there say AV or any coach was the ideal solution? Or gee, are you going out on a limb no one ever thought of and suggest Sather might be the issue and we fire Sather? That's a really novel idea, though I was posting to fire Sather before you joined in 2006, so why mention the revolving coach issue like we all don't know what the real issues are with this team? Dude, we all know Sather is the issue. We all knew that 10 years ago. You're not saying anything that hasn't been said 700,000 times.

We can complain about Sather till our heads fall off, which has been beaten to death and then some, but we still have no control over Sather being here and the owner has no real interest in the team or in firing Sather. So we all tend to discuss things that actually might change or, at the very least, we collectively vent or rant or give each other mental CPR and barf bags to survive Sather.

Sather being the problem has been old news for over 10 years now. Dolan doesn't seem interested enough to notice the team or to fire Sather, or he would have fired Sather in the early 2000s. So you can repeat the same crap over and over, and you can fight the dark side as much as you want. But as a NYR fan sooner or later you will have to embrace the dark side and suffer the reality of Darth Sather with the rest of us.

 

[StepansLabyrinth]

As far as AV implementing his system, I think it's important to remember that Sather had no cap space to work with this past offseason but might have around 20 mil to play with next offseason. Girardi and Callahan (and others) hit UFA, Richards should get bought out. A lot can be done then. You could feasibly do Stastny and Phaneuf/Boyle and still have capspace to fill out the roster. I think I'd definitely look into Dan Boyle on a 2 year deal, he'd be great next to McDonagh.

Even if this year goes poorly, having AV here to set in place his system before that big offseason could be better for the team next year. I don't think you can make a reasonable case that Torts would have this team challenging for a cup even if we never made the Nash trade.

 

[TheTakedown]

Not going to lie... Absolutely agree that av should be adapting to his current roster... But I think there is something else going on...

Sather brought av here to play offensive hockey. Sather kissed his ass and gloated over this garbage roster... Quite frankly it looks to me like av has been set up.

For that reason alone, I do not want him to adapt to this roster. What we see us av standing up to sather and saying "bro you lied to me... This team sucks... So what we see now is av calling out sather for putting him between a rock and a hard place...

Quite frankly, I'm glad. In most cases I would say that is a crap job by the coach... But I am sure that av knows more than us.... And I'm sure he knows that sather does not do his homework...

The best part is sather won't fire him! So at this point it's either a) sather quits and leaves this mess to Gorton, or b) sather is forced to pull in players that av requests.... Inevitably if sather wanted to look like an absolute fool, option c) fire av and hire laviolette....

 

[Blueshirt Special]

Not going to lie... Absolutely agree that av should be adapting to his current roster... But I think there is something else going on...

Sather brought av here to play offensive hockey. Sather kissed his ass and gloated over this garbage roster... Quite frankly it looks to me like av has been set up.

For that reason alone, I do not want him to adapt to this roster. What we see us av standing up to sather and saying "bro you lied to me... This team sucks... So what we see now is av calling out sather for putting him between a rock and a hard place...

Quite frankly, I'm glad. In most cases I would say that is a crap job by the coach... But I am sure that av knows more than us.... And I'm sure he knows that sather does not do his homework...

The best part is sather won't fire him! So at this point it's either a) sather quits and leaves this mess to Gorton, or b) sather is forced to pull in players that av requests.... Inevitably if sather wanted to look like an absolute fool, option c) fire av and hire laviolette....

This post has merit

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Not going to lie... Absolutely agree that av should be adapting to his current roster... But I think there is something else going on...

Sather brought av here to play offensive hockey. Sather kissed his ass and gloated over this garbage roster... Quite frankly it looks to me like av has been set up.

For that reason alone, I do not want him to adapt to this roster. What we see us av standing up to sather and saying "bro you lied to me... This team sucks... So what we see now is av calling out sather for putting him between a rock and a hard place...

Quite frankly, I'm glad. In most cases I would say that is a crap job by the coach... But I am sure that av knows more than us.... And I'm sure he knows that sather does not do his homework...

The best part is sather won't fire him! So at this point it's either a) sather quits and leaves this mess to Gorton, or b) sather is forced to pull in players that av requests.... Inevitably if sather wanted to look like an absolute fool, option c) fire av and hire laviolette....

I actually agree with this post, I think it's pretty spot on.

 

[eco's bones]

Before too much longer Phaneuf is going to re-up with the Maple Leafs on a long term contract. Forget about Phaneuf. He's not coming here.

 

[Spamhuis]

You know thinking about it, how many of Vancouver's points come against EDM and CAL in the old division set up?

I'm in the same boat as you are in thinking that he isn't the coach a lot of Ranger fans expected. He strikes me as a bit of a contrarian; one whose stubborn to the point where he it comes off as his intellect outweighs collective or conventional wisdom.

The book on him is that he is a match up guru that really knows how to dictate situational play. I've been greatly displeased with him since preseason to be honest, but given the long road trip to start the season, and no home games, I wanted to see what he could do with the last change.

The 2nd paragraph is true. He's stubborn to a fault.

The third paragraph is not. He is not a good tactician. He is often out-coached in the game within a game. He's more of a strategist who relies on his system to be better than in-the-moment adjustments of other teams.

 

[Mikos87]

You make a compelling argument. And, in light of your observations, I have to wonder: What expectations / relationship did Slats lay out to AV? Maybe Slats (who does, after all, have his job for life) said: "The players are tired of the old system. So are the fans. How about this: I'll give you two years to get things in order. Do what you do, and I'll support you any way I can, within reason. For now, though, focus on teaching and instilling your style."

I'm not by any means claiming that Slats actually said that to AV, but such an exchange doesn't seem unrealistic, and it would fall in line with your argument. Like you said, he's an intelligent coach, so I doubt he'd simply reflexively focus on being Tort's antithesis -- rather than producing results. After all: it's not unprecedented for a GM to (however reluctantly) accept a poor first season from a new coach -- as long as the team returns to form the following season.

For better or for worse, though, I confess that AV reminds me an awful lot of Jacques Martin (especially during the Senators years).

Yes and Jacques Martin was an excellent X&Os guy who I always felt was the ultimate assistant coach. A great teacher, but not a leader of men. One that can't squeeze all the lemon juice out of a lemon if you know what I mean.

Felt the same way about Renney. Both Martin and Renney look like they're doing pretty good jobs with PIT and DET as assistants.

 

[Mikos87]

The 2nd paragraph is true. He's stubborn to a fault.

The third paragraph is not. He is not a good tactician. He is often out-coached in the game within a game. He's more of a strategist who relies on his system to be better than in-the-moment adjustments of other teams.

You're totally right, and we're seeing it. He was advertised as this zone match-up coach. One that put his offensive guys in position to score, but hasn't been the case here at all. Team looks very indifferent with him at the helm.

 

[chosen]

Torts was fired for a multitude of reasons, and the big one because he became bigger than the team in how the media portrayed the Rangers. Tortorella was bigger than the team last year, and for a multimedia empire that is a no-no.

MSG's product, MSG's network comes first, and when you add to that Torts was arrogant and didn't treat anyone who disagreed with him with a lot of respect to say the least, well some of that non-hockey stuff is on Torts, and he acknowledged as much throughout the off-season.

Wrong.

Winning comes first. Always.

If Torts was a total ass and won the Cup, he would still be here unless he did something so heinous it could not be overlooked, as once happened in Buffalo.

 

[chosen]

...Quite frankly it looks to me like av has been set up.

...For that reason alone, I do not want him to adapt to this roster. What we see us av standing up to sather and saying "bro you lied to me..... And I'm sure he knows that sather does not do his homework...

If you believe AV was set up, you are saying that AV is a total moron. You think Sather told AV that this team is loaded with talent and that AV thought to himself "Wow. How lucky am I to have inherited such a talented group!!!

Almost every fan who posts here realizes that this team has severe offensive deficiencies.

If AV believed there were players here to play an offensive-based game, then it is AV who did not do his homework.

If you think AV has Sather in some sort of bind, you are wrong. It almost without exception works in the other direction. Never forget that you are dealing with an owner who kept trying to bring back Isaih Thomas, no matter how stupidly or criminally he behaved. AV poses no danger to Sather.

 

[TollefsenFan]

Stepan had a better year under Torts than Kreider or Zucc is having this year under AV.

This is not a defense of Torts. It merely refutes your theory.

Not rly. Even Sacco could have developed Stepan into an elite player and Sacco was the worst Coach in this Leagues history (Colorado Avalanche)

The thing is that Avs has fate in his Young players, while torts sent them to Hartford if they made one mistake.

The best players this season are Kreider and Zucc. Thats says it all.

 

[RangersHank*]

If you believe AV was set up, you are saying that AV is a total moron. You think Sather told AV that this team is loaded with talent and that AV thought to himself "Wow. How lucky am I to have inherited such a talented group!!!

Almost every fan who posts here realizes that this team has severe offensive deficiencies.

If AV believed there were players here to play an offensive-based game, then it is AV who did not do his homework.

If you think AV has Sather in some sort of bind, you are wrong. It almost without exception works in the other direction. Never forget that you are dealing with an owner who kept trying to bring back Isaih Thomas, no matter how stupidly or criminally he behaved. AV poses no danger to Sather.

People seem to think that coaches are clueless and that they know more than the coach

 

[aufheben]

Yeah, I don't understand how a successful veteran NHL coach could be "tricked" into a subpar roster.

 

[TheTakedown]

If you believe AV was set up, you are saying that AV is a total moron. You think Sather told AV that this team is loaded with talent and that AV thought to himself "Wow. How lucky am I to have inherited such a talented group!!!

Almost every fan who posts here realizes that this team has severe offensive deficiencies.

If AV believed there were players here to play an offensive-based game, then it is AV who did not do his homework.

If you think AV has Sather in some sort of bind, you are wrong. It almost without exception works in the other direction. Never forget that you are dealing with an owner who kept trying to bring back Isaih Thomas, no matter how stupidly or criminally he behaved. AV poses no danger to Sather.

Directly no. Sather isn't humilated or frightened by AV calling out his roster construction... however there seems to be enough reason to believe that that Sather's reputation is on the line. That big splash signing in Nash is NOT producing. Hanks having a terrible year.
What other excuse is there? You hired a coach that was 1 win away from winning a stanley cup, gave him your "torts" roster, and expected miracle to happen with it. It didn't.

Immediately, one can see how it might be the coaches fault, but anyone who watches this team (I would hope management is actually watching) understands that the team would have been in a similar hole with torts... we saw a little glimpse of that in 12-13; The team was absolutely lifeless in the playoffs; We hung on by the skin of our teeth just to beat the crapitals in 7 games, then owned by boston...

It's not to say that AV will have Sather fired, but like I said... Sather will look like a real ****ing ******* if he decides to fire a coach 60 games into a season because he can't produce "offense" from players with no offensive skill. Hank having a poor year is exasperating this, which I view as a good thing

I also don't think AV is clueless... Contrarily, AV has a high intellect and a very technical brain. easily told just by looking at his composure (I'm waiting for the day he melts down and throws the bench onto the ice, but that's another conversation). Realistically, was AV offered an interview with any other team? If so, then he decided that the Rangers were the best for him to coach based on what Glen had told him (do you think Glen is going to rip out video for a coach he hasn't hired). If not, then AV was desperate for a job and took it.

I still think Sather blew smoke up his ass about *some* (not all) of these players... MDZ, Stepan, and Kreider in particular

 

[chosen]

Not rly. Even Sacco could have developed Stepan into an elite player and Sacco was the worst Coach in this Leagues history (Colorado Avalanche)

The thing is that Avs has fate in his Young players, while torts sent them to Hartford if they made one mistake.

The best players this season are Kreider and Zucc. Thats says it all.

Your logic is that anyone could have developed Stepan because he is an enormous talent. Most here (not me) think Kreider will be better than Stepan. Kreider stunk early this year after a training camp under AV. The light went on later, not because of AV, but because he learned that you have to skate hard all the time.

Coaches have almost no effect on how a player plays. They have all been coached for 15 years by thetime they reach the NHL.

The only things you can teach them are the smallest of wrinkles in style.

Why do fans understand that players that are great because they are great and believe the rest are so dependent on coaching?

 

[RangersHank*]

Directly no. Sather isn't humilated or frightened by AV calling out his roster construction... however there seems to be enough reason to believe that that Sather's reputation is on the line. That big splash signing in Nash is NOT producing. Hanks having a terrible year.
What other excuse is there? You hired a coach that was 1 win away from winning a stanley cup, gave him your "torts" roster, and expected miracle to happen with it. It didn't.

Immediately, one can see how it might be the coaches fault, but anyone who watches this team (I would hope management is actually watching) understands that the team would have been in a similar hole with torts... we saw a little glimpse of that in 12-13; The team was absolutely lifeless in the playoffs; We hung on by the skin of our teeth just to beat the crapitals in 7 games, then owned by boston...

It's not to say that AV will have Sather fired, but like I said... Sather will look like a real ****ing ******* if he decides to fire a coach 60 games into a season because he can't produce "offense" from players with no offensive skill. Hank having a poor year is exasperating this, which I view as a good thing

We were down 3-2 last year to the caps werent we? Didnt the team win a 1-0 game 6 and then a 5-0 game 7? How the hell is that lifeless? Boston won because they were a million times better

 

[TheTakedown]

We were down 3-2 last year to the caps werent we? Didnt the team win a 1-0 game 6 and then a 5-0 game 7? How the hell is that lifeless? Boston won because they were a million times better

the fact that it took going down 3-2 AGAIN to come back and win just shows that it's becoming a "too little too late" scenario. As for playing lifelessly, I saw zero chance against boston. Fact is, the players saw that too, and gave up... simple as that

EDIT: Sorry had to add an edit in the original post

 

[Clausewitz]

Yes and Jacques Martin was an excellent X&Os guy who I always felt was the ultimate assistant coach. A great teacher, but not a leader of men. One that can't squeeze all the lemon juice out of a lemon if you know what I mean.

Felt the same way about Renney. Both Martin and Renney look like they're doing pretty good jobs with PIT and DET as assistants.

(1) I couldn't agree more. The star-studded Senators teams of the early-mid 2000s were largely internally developed. The organization drafted Hossa, Havlat, Redden, Alfredsson, Bonk and Fisher (just to name a few); Martin developed them. If memory serves me right, and I hope it does, Chara was just a top-six defenseman when he got to Ottawa; Jacques Martin developed him into a first-pairing defenseman. Just two of the aforementioned players (Redden and Bonk) were even top-ten picks*. Which brings me to the following question: Why do we insist on going after UFA after UFA?

(2) Absolutely.



*Bonk was 3rd overall (1994); Alfredsson was 133rd overall (1994); Redden was 2nd overall (1995); Hossa was 12th overall (1998); Fisher was 44th overall (1998); Havlat was 26th overall (1999). Chara was 56th overall (1996). Source: individual player Wikipedia entries.

 

[The Gloaming]

We lost to Boston because we let Torey Krug out of Michigan State run wild in the offensive zone, didn't put pressure on their young defensemen, and crapped our pants whenever we saw Chara.

 

[TheTakedown]

I actually agree with this post, I think it's pretty spot on.

what sad is Sather's answer at some point will be to fire AV... which won't work, and there isn't anyone else to fire Sather, so the cycle continues

 

[RangersHank*]

the fact that it took going down 3-2 AGAIN to come back and win just shows that it's becoming a "too little too late" scenario. As for playing lifelessly, I saw zero chance against boston. Fact is, the players saw that too, and gave up... simple as that

EDIT: Sorry had to add an edit in the original post

Usually when a team fights back 3-2, it shows that they still have life in them. Boston is just a great team and outplayed us regardless or who was coaching. If we make the playoffs this year and get beat in 5-6 games in round 1 under AV, what will be the excuse? Because AV does have a history of being **** on in the playoffs

 

[chosen]

People seem to think that coaches are clueless and that they know more than the coach

The smarter fans understand that personnel wins, not coaches. If this was not fact, good coaches would all remain with the same teams for as long as they wished. What is the average coaching span on a team in the NHL?

Yet, they all get fired. Very few last 5 years.

I don't think coaches are clueless. I think they are usually interchangeable. So far, AV has yet to display even that level here.

A lot of fans told me before the season that since we had gotten rid of the imbecile who held back his team offensively, that all would be far better. How has that thought process played out?

 

[chosen]

the fact that it took going down 3-2 AGAIN to come back and win just shows that it's becoming a "too little too late" scenario. As for playing lifelessly, I saw zero chance against boston. Fact is, the players saw that too, and gave up... simple as that

EDIT: Sorry had to add an edit in the original post

Are you saying that a better coach last year could have beaten the Bruins? If so, I strongly disagree.