Auston Matthews 69 goals in 81 games, most goals scored since Lemieux in 1995-96

[mobilus]

Name one generational player that has never won a single Art Ross. But you're right, people love to hate on him. Wonder why?

Does Mike Bossy count?

 

[Senor Catface]

Does Mike Bossy count?

I've never heard of Mike Bossy being considered a generational player.

 

[kevsh]

And all that said, I'm not sure Richard is even considered a generational player, more of a legend of the game.

What?!?!? I had to re-read that 5 times because I was convinced I was seeing things.

But seriously, yeah, I think you lost this one but man are you still desperately trying to cling on to it though.
I'll give you at least some credit for not disappearing right away, but with replies like that perhaps you should have.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Weird that people don’t consider Matthews generational at this point. A two-way center like that who scores at nearly a goal per game… not enough secondary powerplay assists I suppose?

There's about as many players ahead of Matthews in points this year alone, than there have been total generational forwards. It's not really a knock to leave him off that list IMO

FWIW I think 'Generational Goal Scorer' is fair. I don't really like sub-categories, but goal scoring is obviously a lot more relevant than saying someone is a 'generational backwards-skater' (just an example).

 

[AvroArrow]

Name one generational player that has never won a single Art Ross. But you're right, people love to hate on him. Wonder why?

From 1981 to 1994 only Gretzky and Lemieux won an art ross, from 1981 to 2001 only Gretzky, Lemieux or Jagr won an Art Ross until Iginla did in 2002.

Other than the year where McDavid was injured and missed 18 games, the only other player to win an Art Ross during the McDavid era is Kucherov.

There was this Mike Bossy guy who is considered a generational goal scorer that never won an Art Ross, hell you can even make an argument for Sakic or Yzerman.


Why is Art Ross the only measure of what makes someone generational ? Matthews is this generations greatest goalscorer quite easily, he may hit 70 goals this year, something that hasn't been done since what Selanne ? Which other player in this generation or last generation was as great of a goal scorer ?

Spoiler, the last time we saw goal scorer this dominant and ahead of his peers, was when Ovechkin took over the scene.

No idea how you're trying to argue he isn't a generational goal scorer, because he hasn't won an Art Ross (yet) There's tons of players who have an Art Ross who aren't generational like Jamie Benn or MSL.

He has 2 rockets, probably could have had a 3rd if he didn't miss games due to injury, and will probably win his 3rd one now.

He'll never put up as many points as McDavid, but he's absolutely a generational goal scorer.

 

[Golden_Jet]

From 1981 to 1994 only Gretzky and Lemieux won an art ross, from 1981 to 2001 only Gretzky, Lemieux or Jagr won an Art Ross until Iginla did in 2002.

Other than the year where McDavid was injured and missed 18 games, the only other player to win an Art Ross during the McDavid era is Kucherov.

There was this Mike Bossy guy who is considered a generational goal scorer that never won an Art Ross, hell you can even make an argument for Sakic or Yzerman.


Why is Art Ross the only measure of what makes someone generational ? Matthews is this generations greatest goalscorer quite easily, he may hit 70 goals this year, something that hasn't been done since what Selanne ? Which other player in this generation or last generation was as great of a goal scorer ?

Spoiler, the last time we saw goal scorer this dominant and ahead of his peers, was when Ovechkin took over the scene.

No idea how you're trying to argue he isn't a generational goal scorer, because he hasn't won an Art Ross (yet) There's tons of players who have an Art Ross who aren't generational like Jamie Benn or MSL.

He has 2 rockets, probably could have had a 3rd if he didn't miss games due to injury, and will probably win his 3rd one now.

He'll never put up as many points as McDavid, but he's absolutely a generational goal scorer.

Saying generational player is different than saying generational goal scorer.

 

[Divine]

Go on the history board and start a thread comparing Richard and Matthews

Richard might be the GOAT playoff goalscorer, he is still 3rd in playoff GPG behind Mario and Bossy and at the time of his retirement he was dominant in the all time list.

Playoffs goals by 1960	GP	G	GPG
Maurice Richard	132	82	0,62
Bernie Geoffrion	106	53	0,50
Ted Lindsay	126	44	0,35
Gordie Howe	95	37	0,39
Jean Beliveau	63	36	0,57

Playoffs goals by 1980	GP	G	GPG
Maurice Richard	132	82	0,62
Jean Beliveau	162	79	0,49
Gordie Howe	157	68	0,43
Yvan Cournoyer	147	64	0,44
Bobby Hull	119	62	0,52

Playoffs goals by 2000	GP	G	GPG
Wayne Gretzky	208	122	0,59
Mark Messier	236	109	0,46
Jari Kurri	200	106	0,53
Glenn Anderson	225	93	0,41
Brett Hull	153	88	0,58
Mike Bossy	129	85	0,66
Maurice Richard	132	82	0,62

Playoffs goals now	GP	G	GPG
Wayne Gretzky	208	122	0,59
Mark Messier	236	109	0,46
Jari Kurri	200	106	0,53
Glenn Anderson	225	93	0,41
Brett Hull	153	88	0,58
Mike Bossy	129	85	0,66
Joe Sakic	172	84	0,49
Maurice Richard	132	82	0,62

This has nothing to do with what I responded to.

That said, I don't think even you would argue against the fact it's much easier to score on a stacked teams with no salary caps in a 6 team league. There was no NHL draft and the Habs basically signed every top player and prospect with the highest payroll in the league.

If we really want to compare players fairly, we should differentiate from no salary cap to a salary cap. Every Cup winner in the current NHL has to walk away from players due to cap constraints making it much harder to stack a team for years and years like the Richard-era Canadiens who won 11 Stanley Cups.

A player winning 11 Stanley Cups in today's era is nearly unfathomable with the NHL forcing parity to prevent things like that.

 

[Squiffy]

The hell is Matthews doing in this talk?

Weird that people don’t consider Matthews generational at this point. A two-way center like that who scores at nearly a goal per game… not enough secondary powerplay assists I suppose?

We’ll check in in a decade dude.

 

[authentic]

The hell is Matthews doing in this talk?


We’ll check in in a decade dude.

Please do

 

[Squiffy]

I've never heard of Mike Bossy being considered a generational player.

I hated Bossy, but time mellows. One of, arguments for best, pure goal scorers ever. Absolutely generational.

Please do

We hang out on the same board friend, I will.

Potential is there. It’s just not part of this talk, is all.

 

[authentic]

I hated Bossy, but time mellows. One of, arguments for best, pure goal scorers ever. Absolutely generational.


We hang out on the same board friend, I will.

Potential is there. It’s just not part of this talk, is all.

Wait so Bossy is absolutely generational but Matthews who is clearly the better goal scorer and overall player isn’t?

 

[Squiffy]

Wait so Bossy is absolutely generational but Matthews who is clearly the better goal scorer and overall player isn’t?

Probably will be. Heck, you ask me, already is, Bossy was a winger and sure didn’t D like AM. Said nothing about AM not being generational, you’re arguing with the wrong person my man.

My points: Bossy was a generational scorer, Crosby I think cracks top ten at this point, OV is somewhere top 20, and AM is not a part of this thread.

Edit: and also that I am mixing two threads in to one.. its late

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

53, he needs 17 more in 23 games

 

[JianYang]

Hull represented USA although he wasn't born there. How games did it take him to score 50 in that 86 goal season?

 

[Strangle]

Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin are better players than MacKinnon, Matthews, and Kucherov. Kucherov may have a shot a surpassing Malkin, but in reality he's at best about even with him.

McDavid is better than Crosby

Mackinnon and Kucherov are both better than Malkin

Matthews and Ovechkin to this point are a wash

Matthews is an amazing goal scorer but in reality as an all around offensive player he is not that exceptional, he has one season where he managed to score over 100 points.

I can’t take HFboards posters opinions on Maple Leaf players seriously. Not many people are able (or care to) look beyond their hatred of the Leafs to be objective about a player.

Especially Matthews. I wish they didn’t lock the Stutzle v Matthews thread. People on this site legit thought Matthews had regressed to the mean as a 40 goal scorer. And then he goes out and does what he’s doing this year.

You likely aren’t able to judge a maple leaf player with any objectivity at all, so we don’t need to talk about any of them

McDavid is the only player that can be ranked ahead of them, and comparing his first 5 seasons head to head with Crosby's they were extremely close before Crosby ran into concussion issues.

McDavid’s first 7 years, compared to Crosby’s first 8 years (to get the number of games similar) shows that Crosby is further away from McDavid than Marner is to Crosby

All of these guys were around when scoring was lower, and they weren't putting up numbers anywhere near what they are now that scoring is up. Kucherov was a 90-100 point player who suddenly jumped up to 128 in 18/19 and has stayed at an 110+ pace since then. None of them were approaching 120 point paces until the 2018/2019 season when league wide scoring went up.

We see it with the older players as well. Ovechkin was scoring around 50 every year, then suddenly he was pacing for close to 60 again in his mid 30's once scoring went up.

I don’t care about era or adjusting stats. Everyone has the same chances to score.

Also, you mention Gretzky and Lemieux as if the league they entered was low scoring, when in reality the NHL was already in an era of increased scoring before they even arrived. In fact, as I stated in my previous post, scoring went DOWN during their primes. Lemieux was drafted in 1984, and by 1986 league scoring had already begun to drop. Imagine that, the two greatest offensive talents in league history, Gretzky smack dab in the middle of his prime, Lemieux in his third year and yet the league saw it's goals per game drop throughout the late 80's and into the 90's.

If you’re looking at era, and this is another problem I have with the entire concept, you can’t just cherry pick years and try to make an argument about it. If it’s going to be an ‘era’ you have to take at least 8 or 10 years worth of data.

Single seasons mean nothing to the argument you’re trying to make, there is constant fluctuation in league scoring.

Match the league scoring to Gretzky and lemieux’s health issues, you need to factor in Gretzky’s back, what season did that happen?

And lemieuxs cancer diagnosis, when did that happen?

 

[Legion34]

There's about as many players ahead of Matthews in points this year alone, than there have been total generational forwards. It's not really a knock to leave him off that list IMO

FWIW I think 'Generational Goal Scorer' is fair. I don't really like sub-categories, but goal scoring is obviously a lot more relevant than saying someone is a 'generational backwards-skater' (just an example).

Gary valk was the best icer in the league according to harry Neale. Wonder if he is generational

 

[Strangle]

With this goal scoring explosion the desperate narrative of his two way impact has returned in full force. Likely preparing to begin the narrative Matthews > McDavid again shortly.

Can you find out where Matthews ranks amongst his peers in some stats that could help prove your argument?

Takeaways
Stick checks
Blocked shots
Blocked passes
Hits
Cheating for offense
Empty net goals
Goals scored

I don’t know where to find those stats, but if he’s bottom of the league in most of those, should be a mic drop moment for your argument

 

[Legion34]

The real poll of generations should be

McDavid/matthews
Vs
Sid/ovy.

First 8 years of careers 2015/16 beats 2004/2005 pretty squarely i would say

 

[Strangle]

The real poll of generations should be

McDavid/matthews
Vs
Sid/ovy.

First 8 years of careers 2015/16 beats 2004/2005 pretty squarely i would say

It’s not really close, the Crosby era was the worst hockey that has existed in my life time

Talent was better before and talent is better after

 

[authentic]

It’s not really close, the Crosby era was the worst hockey that has existed in my life time

Talent was better before and talent is better after

So was talent better during WW2 also?

 

[nturn06]

From 1981 to 1994 only Gretzky and Lemieux won an art ross, from 1981 to 2001 only Gretzky, Lemieux or Jagr won an Art Ross until Iginla did in 2002.

Other than the year where McDavid was injured and missed 18 games, the only other player to win an Art Ross during the McDavid era is Kucherov.

There was this Mike Bossy guy who is considered a generational goal scorer that never won an Art Ross, hell you can even make an argument for Sakic or Yzerman.


Why is Art Ross the only measure of what makes someone generational ? Matthews is this generations greatest goalscorer quite easily, he may hit 70 goals this year, something that hasn't been done since what Selanne ? Which other player in this generation or last generation was as great of a goal scorer ?

Spoiler, the last time we saw goal scorer this dominant and ahead of his peers, was when Ovechkin took over the scene.

No idea how you're trying to argue he isn't a generational goal scorer, because he hasn't won an Art Ross (yet) There's tons of players who have an Art Ross who aren't generational like Jamie Benn or MSL.

He has 2 rockets, probably could have had a 3rd if he didn't miss games due to injury, and will probably win his 3rd one now.

He'll never put up as many points as McDavid, but he's absolutely a generational goal scorer.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your argument is that in a generation ( ~20 years), there were only 3 players who won the Art Ross and there is a fourth player in that generation which should be considered as generational (i.e. once in a generation). Hmmmmm.

 

[Grifter3511]

Correct me if I am wrong, but your argument is that in a generation ( ~20 years), there were only 3 players who won the Art Ross and there is a fourth player in that generation which should be considered as generational (i.e. once in a generation). Hmmmmm.

He also states that Matthews is about to do something that hasn't been done since Selanne. Do we consider selanne generational?

 

[12ozPapa]

Leafs still won’t win a Cup with that core. Mark it

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Match the league scoring to Gretzky and lemieux’s health issues, you need to factor in Gretzky’s back, what season did that happen?

The significance of Suter's hit on Gretzky

Gary Suter's hit on Wayne Gretzky is widely considered a watershed moment that forever altered Gretzky's career, basically ending his super-elite production, especially in terms of goal scoring. What is this claim based on? I haven't been able to find a video of the infamous hit. I read...

forums.hfboards.com

And lemieuxs cancer diagnosis, when did that happen?

How many points was Lemieux on pace for before he got Cancer?

His 160 in 60 was amazing, but I'm curious how many he was on pace fore before his diagnosis of cancer?

forums.hfboards.com

28 Years ago today, Mario Lemieux returned to play from cancer treatment

Memorable day for 66.

forums.hfboards.com

 

[The90]

Can you find out where Matthews ranks amongst his peers in some stats that could help prove your argument?

Takeaways
Stick checks
Blocked shots
Blocked passes
Hits
Cheating for offense
Empty net goals
Goals scored

I don’t know where to find those stats, but if he’s bottom of the league in most of those, should be a mic drop moment for your argument

It’s his schtick to whine about Matthews 2 way play. He does it on his own boards ‘out of town’ thread pretty regularly, also gets swatted down by the mature folk over there for it. Just doesn’t match reality.