Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

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I genuinely do not care if we fire Dubas or not. Haven't for a while. What matters is having a GM with the guts to end the big4 era and build a team with a new outlook. This core has failed, time to react.

One of the things I like about Dubas is that he doesn't dwell on his mistakes. I find it hard to blame him for sticking with the big 4 when the fans have been discussing how we keep them for the next decade the entire time. The flat cap completely destroyed our ability to surround them with quality depth and the weight of expectations and failures over the last four years has completely poisoned this core.

If Dubas has the guts to trade Marner, then I'm fine keeping him because I like him as a talent accumulator. If he doesn't, get someone who does.
 
I'm not against that. Like I said earlier, I think a Rielly or Nylander trade would "send a message" in a meaningful way. But to whom? Who are you trying to reform?

I think the guy at the center of this crap storm is Marner. The Babcock controversy, the endless coddling and fragility under pressure, the pushback on Keefe calling out the core, the circus brand hockey. That's the purge. That's the nuclear, era changing move.
After the loss to (lol) Columbus I argued loudly that Marner needs to be traded. Three 11 mil forwards was only sustainable under the CONSTANT argument I heard that "the cap is about to go up like crazy". Well, the loss to (lol) Columbus came right around the time of the announcement of a flat cap for the foreseeable future.

That, right there, meant that one of the 11 mil players had to go. Tavares a nmc, Matthews is Matthews... and that leaves Marner. It sucks, because he's a great player. But he simply had to go.

His contract is so front-loaded that he's now a complete bargain in terms of real money. He'd fetch a kings ransom.
 
I genuinely do not care if we fire Dubas or not. Haven't for a while. What matters is having a GM with the guts to end the big4 era and build a team with a new outlook. This core has failed, time to react.

One of the things I like about Dubas is that he doesn't dwell on his mistakes. I find it hard to blame him for sticking with the big 4 when the fans have been discussing how we keep them for the next decade the entire time. The flat cap completely destroyed our ability to surround them with quality depth and the weight of expectations and failures over the last four years has completely poisoned this core.

If Dubas has the guts to trade Marner, then I'm fine keeping him because I like him as a talent accumulator. If he doesn't, get someone who does.

Too late for Kyle to trade any core players. He made his bed.
 
I genuinely do not care if we fire Dubas or not. Haven't for a while. What matters is having a GM with the guts to end the big4 era and build a team with a new outlook. This core has failed, time to react.

One of the things I like about Dubas is that he doesn't dwell on his mistakes. I find it hard to blame him for sticking with the big 4 when the fans have been discussing how we keep them for the next decade the entire time. The flat cap completely destroyed our ability to surround them with quality depth and the weight of expectations and failures over the last four years has completely poisoned this core.

If Dubas has the guts to trade Marner, then I'm fine keeping him because I like him as a talent accumulator. If he doesn't, get someone who does.
Dubas has pretty much inferred that he will live or die by betting his house on the Big 4. If anyone traders Marner, it won't be Dubas pulling the trigger.
 
Dubas has pretty much inferred that he will live or die by betting his house on the Big 4. If anyone traders Marner, it won't be Dubas pulling the trigger.

Your teams biggest problem was the pandemic and the resultant flat cap.

The big 4 contracts implicitly assumed the cap would continue to rise. Because that has stalled, it's been very hard to bring in good secondary pieces with so little cap space. You guys should be in better shape as the cap rises...

But, you need a GM that can get a good goalie.
 
I genuinely do not care if we fire Dubas or not. Haven't for a while. What matters is having a GM with the guts to end the big4 era and build a team with a new outlook. This core has failed, time to react.

One of the things I like about Dubas is that he doesn't dwell on his mistakes. I find it hard to blame him for sticking with the big 4 when the fans have been discussing how we keep them for the next decade the entire time. The flat cap completely destroyed our ability to surround them with quality depth and the weight of expectations and failures over the last four years has completely poisoned this core.

If Dubas has the guts to trade Marner, then I'm fine keeping him because I like him as a talent accumulator. If he doesn't, get someone who does.

Dubas is the last person I want handling any major trades at this point. Especially the big 4 ones. He is too emotionally attached to this group and he just flat out sucks.

I really would love to see a rebuild/retool of this team. I’d only keep Matthews at this point but we could get boatloads of assets for the other 3 and Rielly.

Honestly, I’m 50/50 on Matthews too. He’s been lazy af
 
Your teams biggest problem was the pandemic and the resultant flat cap.

The big 4 contracts implicitly assumed the cap would continue to rise. Because that has stalled, it's been very hard to bring in good secondary pieces with so little cap space. You guys should be in better shape as the cap rises...

But, you need a GM that can get a good goalie.
The flat cap is a terrible excuse. Once they knew the cap wasn’t going up, they should have moved one of the big contracts as a result. It’s called adjusting to the market
 
I like him as a talent accumulator


Because the Marlies are stacked with players ready to burst into the NHL?

Dubas has pretty much inferred that he will live or die by betting his house on the Big 4. If anyone traders Marner, it won't be Dubas pulling the trigger.


People shouldn't forget that he flat out told Nylander after he signed that he wouldn't be traded so long as Kyle was at the helm.
 
Dubas is the last person I want handling any major trades at this point. Especially the big 4 ones. He is too emotionally attached to this group and he just flat out sucks.

I really would love to see a rebuild/retool of this team. I’d only keep Matthews at this point but we could get boatloads of assets for the other 3 and Rielly.

Honestly, I’m 50/50 on Matthews too. He’s been lazy af
He is no more attached to the big 4 than the fans are. Two weeks ago people were writing theories about how we could afford them for the next decade. A week ago I made a post in the trades and FA thread about moving Nylander and the legions came out to decry the very idea. Dubas is attached to the big 4, but I'd hate to have a hockey executive who wasn't willing to bet on talents like Marner.

And seriously, you question the emotional attachment to the team being too much and then finish the post with saying you'd trade Matthews because he's been lazy for 9 games? Bloody hell. The new GM who trades Marner is going to get absolutely ripped to shreds by this fanbase for the next decade because there's no way we win that trade. You see how people cry about Kadri, Marner will be that x10.

Dubas has drafted well, dumpster dives like a champ, is a mediocre trader, built us a great defense (that is falling apart without Muzzin), and signs some bad UFA deals. For years I have said his major crime has been that he's unable to get the recipe right around this core 4. At this point, I think the problem is the core 4 themselves and they had us all fooled.

If we do get a new guy, that's great and I hope he makes a good trade when he deals Marner/Nylander. I will never blame Dubas for something that had almost unanimous support from the fans for.
 
Because the Marlies are stacked with players ready to burst into the NHL?




People shouldn't forget that he flat out told Nylander after he signed that he wouldn't be traded so long as Kyle was at the helm.
Because a 115 point hockey team is pretty good. Guys like Bunting, Mikeheyev, Robertson, Sandin, Muzzin, and Brodie, were Dubas adds. This team has been so disappointing because we are a team stocked with talent and should have been able to go deep in the playoffs, not because we looked like the Minnesota Wild for a decade.

As for Nylander, who the hell cares what Dubas told him four years ago? If Dubas needs to keep his word to Nylander (who I have to think is ready to go by now if I'm honest) rather than build the Toronto Maple Leafs, fire his ass. But I also don't think he's that stupid.
 
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He is no more attached to the big 4 than the fans are. Two weeks ago people were writing theories about how we could afford them for the next decade. A week ago I made a post in the trades and FA thread about moving Nylander and the legions came out to decry the very idea. Dubas is attached to the big 4, but I'd hate to have a hockey executive who wasn't willing to bet on talents like Marner.

And seriously, you question the emotional attachment to the team being too much and then finish the post with saying you'd trade Matthews because he's been lazy for 9 games? Bloody hell. The new GM who trades Marner is going to get absolutely ripped to shreds by this fanbase for the next decade because there's no way we win that trade. You see how people cry about Kadri, Marner will be that x10.

Dubas has drafted well, dumpster dives like a champ, is a mediocre trader, built us a great defense (that is falling apart without Muzzin), and signs some bad UFA deals. For years I have said his major crime has been that he's unable to get the recipe right around this core 4. At this point, I think the problem is the core 4 themselves and they had us all fooled.

If we do get a new guy, that's great and I hope he makes a good trade when he deals Marner/Nylander. I will never blame Dubas for something that had almost unanimous support from the fans for.

Alright, but the fans don’t make trades so who cares about their attachments. Also, that overwhelming support started showing cracks after the Columbus series and serious challenges after the Habs loss. Not everyone here wanted to run it back like boy wonder.

You don’t keep him around if the big 4 go.
 
How did we end up giving 4 years to Jarnkrok? Out of all the players to give term, maybe give it to someone entering their prime
 
Alright, but the fans don’t make trades so who cares about their attachments.

You don’t keep him around if the big 4 go.
What is the point of firing Dubas? Is it to be vindictive and to punish him for the failure, or is it to set the Toronto Maple Leafs up for success to win Stanley Cups in the future? I see no reason that he has to go out the door with the big 4, the only reason to fire him would be because we can get someone else who can do the job better.

He had support from every single stakeholder in the organization to hold on to the big 4. To retroactively revoke that support because he should have known better is just empty rage. We all wish that he would have known better, but that shouldn't really matter when we're considering his suitability for the job in the future. What matters to me is whether he now has the guts to make the change or not. If he doesn't, get him out of here and find someone who has the vision to retool this group of bums. If he does, I've supported him long enough that I'll give him his shot to right the ship. I don't expect him to see the future, but I expect him to make things right when it becomes apparent that they are no longer tenable.

Fundamentally, this is going to come down to a Marner and/or Nylander trade, and I don't think even Shanahan thought a Marner trade was ever a real option. If it's a new GM who makes this trade, I'll be as supportive of them as I am for Dubas now.
 
What is the point of firing Dubas? Is it to be vindictive and to punish him for the failure, or is it to set the Toronto Maple Leafs up for success to win Stanley Cups in the future? I see no reason that he has to go out the door with the big 4, the only reason to fire him would be because we can get someone else who can do the job better.

He had support from every single stakeholder in the organization to hold on to the big 4. To retroactively revoke that support because he should have known better is just empty rage. We all wish that he would have known better, but that shouldn't really matter when we're considering his suitability for the job in the future. What matters to me is whether he now has the guts to make the change or not. If he doesn't, get him out of here and find someone who has the vision to retool this group of bums. If he does, I've supported him long enough that I'll give him his shot to right the ship. I don't expect him to see the future, but I expect him to make things right when it becomes apparent that they are no longer tenable.

Fundamentally, this is going to come down to a Marner and/or Nylander trade, and I don't think even Shanahan thought a Marner trade was ever a real option. If it's a new GM who makes this trade, I'll be as supportive of them as I am for Dubas now.
Well said.. and personally agreed. He needs to show what he is made of and back up his day 1 words.
 
The flat cap is a terrible excuse. Once they knew the cap wasn’t going up, they should have moved one of the big contracts as a result. It’s called adjusting to the market
Or not trade for an average goalie making 6 and put that money on a better defence.

I’m no hockey expert but even I knew last year was time to move on from Muzzin and holl
 
What is the point of firing Dubas? Is it to be vindictive and to punish him for the failure, or is it to set the Toronto Maple Leafs up for success to win Stanley Cups in the future? I see no reason that he has to go out the door with the big 4, the only reason to fire him would be because we can get someone else who can do the job better.

He had support from every single stakeholder in the organization to hold on to the big 4. To retroactively revoke that support because he should have known better is just empty rage. We all wish that he would have known better, but that shouldn't really matter when we're considering his suitability for the job in the future. What matters to me is whether he now has the guts to make the change or not. If he doesn't, get him out of here and find someone who has the vision to retool this group of bums. If he does, I've supported him long enough that I'll give him his shot to right the ship. I don't expect him to see the future, but I expect him to make things right when it becomes apparent that they are no longer tenable.

Fundamentally, this is going to come down to a Marner and/or Nylander trade, and I don't think even Shanahan thought a Marner trade was ever a real option. If it's a new GM who makes this trade, I'll be as supportive of them as I am for Dubas now.

It’s not about being vindictive. It’s about accountability. Something this team has zero of.

You honestly want to sit there and tell me the architect of this garbage should not be let go? Would you not hold the architect whose building collapses responsible in some form? The guy’s major acquisition this offseason was Matt f***ing Murray. Oh well, he couldn’t do any better that’s a BS excuse.

He’s had years on the job now and has repeatedly failed. If you fail at your job, you get let go. That’s how it works and despite the church of Dubas’ belief there are better hockey minds out there and you wait for them to be available if you have to. You fire this clown though and put in an interim. Put in Fletcher and don’t let him make trades if you have to if they are out of a playoff spot by Christmas, I don’t give af.
 
And this is exactly why this clown needs to go. His stubborness and essentially wasting these years is inexcusable

Guy tried to reinvent hockey with speedy midgets ONLY.

3 years wasted before he admits we needed size and strength. We let so many assets walk cause this clown believes in his own BS.

Babcock was right 4 years ago. Would’ve sat Marner down or Matthews and then made Lou trade em cause they were being Divas or didn’t take team friendlies.

That’s on Shanny. The rest is on Dubas.

Send him packing.
 
I genuinely do not care if we fire Dubas or not. Haven't for a while. What matters is having a GM with the guts to end the big4 era and build a team with a new outlook. This core has failed, time to react.

One of the things I like about Dubas is that he doesn't dwell on his mistakes. I find it hard to blame him for sticking with the big 4 when the fans have been discussing how we keep them for the next decade the entire time. The flat cap completely destroyed our ability to surround them with quality depth and the weight of expectations and failures over the last four years has completely poisoned this core.

If Dubas has the guts to trade Marner, then I'm fine keeping him because I like him as a talent accumulator. If he doesn't, get someone who does.

Dubas is completely shallow and rigid in his management.

Belief in the Big 4, Keefe and reinventing the skill possession game to look like Pep Guardiola soccer do the detriment of everything else. Where does this belief even come from? What is the process, analysis in the end? Why does he compare himself to Tampa, Washington, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit? Beyond the talking point everything is very superficial.

The only places he's left for himself to manage are on the very fringes of that project, goalies he doesn't understand or respect and scapegoat plug and play pieces he will swap in and out like Yahoo Fantasy where you can waste cap money on betting on this or that.

He should be fired, but the only thing keeping him there is this is an inconvenient time in the year.
 
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It’s not about being vindictive. It’s about accountability. Something this team has zero of.

You honestly want to sit there and tell me the architect of this garbage should not be let go? Would you not hold the architect whose building collapses responsible in some form? The guy’s major acquisition this offseason was Matt f***ing Murray. Oh well, he couldn’t do any better that’s a BS excuse.

He’s had years on the job now and has repeatedly failed. If you fail at your job, you get let go. That’s how it works and despite the church of Dubas’ belief there are better hockey minds out there and you wait for them to be available if you have to. You fire this clown though and put in an interim. Put in Fletcher and don’t let him make trades if you have to if they are out of a playoff spot by Christmas, I don’t give af.
I blame the players. The guy puts a 115 point team on the ice last year and we've spent years telling ourselves that this was finally the year. But year after year it was the players who couldn't get it done. I understand accountability, but I think that you're looking for accountability in exactly the wrong place. I find it massively ironic that the players have failed again and again and this fanbase is STILL looking everywhere else. Endless threads about how it's all the GM's fault that a 115 point team can't win in the playoffs. It's a joke that people would rather blame the GM for putting together a bad 4th line rather than look at the actual important pieces of the team.

I don't make excuses for Dubas, but I do try to be fair. You can find my posts in the Matt Murray thread and they're about firing him. I'm clearly posting in the context of how his project has failed and I have no illusions that he's probably gone. But I fundamentally believe that if you want to start handing out accountability for failure to this Maple Leafs team, it starts in the locker room. This batch of players are never held accountable and firing yet another manager enables them even further.

This team is not garbage, I've watched enough hockey for long enough to understand a good roster when I see one. Putting together a team with talent is tough n the NHL and the Leafs have been one of the most talented teams in the league for half a decade. The team is broken.

If an architect designs a building and the engineer signs off on it, the construction crews build it, the inspectors certify it, the public loves it, the mayor praises it, and then it collapses, you don't go straight to the architect for his head. All I see in these Dubas threads is bloodlust; hoping for the next big move that will give us the next glimmer of hope.

I am telling you that the core needs to be broken up and I don't think it matters who does it.
 
I blame the players. The guy puts a 115 point team on the ice last year and we've spent years telling ourselves that this was finally the year. But year after year it was the players who couldn't get it done. I understand accountability, but I think that you're looking for accountability in exactly the wrong place. I find it massively ironic that the players have failed again and again and this fanbase is STILL looking everywhere else. Endless threads about how it's all the GM's fault that a 115 point team can't win in the playoffs. It's a joke that people would rather blame the GM for putting together a bad 4th line rather than look at the actual important pieces of the team.

I don't make excuses for Dubas, but I do try to be fair. You can find my posts in the Matt Murray thread and they're about firing him. I'm clearly posting in the context of how his project has failed and I have no illusions that he's probably gone. But I fundamentally believe that if you want to start handing out accountability for failure to this Maple Leafs team, it starts in the locker room. This batch of players are never held accountable and firing yet another manager enables them even further.

This team is not garbage, I've watched enough hockey for long enough to understand a good roster when I see one. Putting together a team with talent is tough n the NHL and the Leafs have been one of the most talented teams in the league for half a decade. The team is broken.

If an architect designs a building and the engineer signs off on it, the construction crews build it, the inspectors certify it, the public loves it, the mayor praises it, and then it collapses, you don't go straight to the architect for his head. All I see in these Dubas threads is bloodlust; hoping for the next big move that will give us the next glimmer of hope.

I am telling you that the core needs to be broken up and I don't think it matters who does it.

Oh absolutely. I don’t disagree the core of this team is the true root of this problem and they need to be broken up but Dubas is just as liable for all this. He’s just another extension of the core as he helped foster this situation.
 
Dubas is completely shallow and rigid in his management.

Belief in the Big 4, Keefe and reinventing the skill possession game to look like Pep Guardiola soccer do the detriment of everything else. Where does this belief even come from? What is the process, analysis in the end? Why does he compare himself to Tampa, Washington, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit? Beyond the talking point everything is very superficial.

The only places he's left for himself to manage are on the very fringes of that project, goalies he doesn't understand or respect and scapegoat plug and play pieces he will swap in and out like Yahoo Fantasy where you can waste cap money on betting on this or that.

He should be fired, but the only thing keeping him there is this is an inconvenient time in the year.
I fundamentally do not believe that he is shallow or rigid in his management.

Look at our 4th line over the years. It's been small and speedy, it's been grizzled and experienced, it's been punchy, it's been grindy, it's been everything under the sun. Our blueline has evolved from a puck moving express to a well balanced unit, to a unit that can't even transition the puck out of their own end. This team has changed SO much over the years, the only thing that has stayed consistent is the core.

We don't play Pep Guardiola soccer whatseover. I've watched just about every Man City game they've played this year and the Leafs aren't even in the same realm. The Leafs have become a group of personalities who try and style the puck into the net, they are nothing like the possession monster Guardiola teams. A Guardiola team is a team of All-Stars who all buy into a program that is bigger than themselves and play an incredibly impressive team game where they work their butts off all 90 minutes. Our Leafs use possession to give the puck to Marner and have him try something magic.

What I will say for Dubas is that he is not actually rigid at all. One of the things I like about him is his adaptability and willingness to fix mistakes. He makes mistakes like Ritchie and Foligno, but moves on from them and gets them right the next time around, like Giordano. I wholeheartedly agree that he doesn't understand goalies, I said in the Murray thread that this was the move that would finally get him fired, and it is indeed the big4 that have meant he is painted into a corner and can only tinker at the edge of the project.

To my eyes, our process for the last four years has been that we have our big guns and then we tinker with the bottom six and build up the defense to try and get the recipe right and let our young stars mature. I do not think there was any will anywhere in the fandom or the organization to try and break up the big4 early. That will likely go down in history as a mistake, but it is a mistake that I can live with. I would hate a GM who wasn't willing to bet on Mitch Marner to pull his head out of his ass.

He might be fired, probably will be. When he is fired, I'll comment something along the lines of, "Too bad". If he's fired and the core doesn't change, I'll see you all in the thread about firing the next guy.
 
You mean kind of what other teams impose on the Leafs?

You'd honestly think they'd look more into the type of game that beats them a lot (by far less talented teams in the playoffs at that) but no.
I think they might be of the view that playing that way would "waste" the talent we do have...if that means we lose...so be it I guess.
 
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